Haste is Disc's Worst Stat

Priest
Hey guys, figured I'd swing by this forum and see what's up. Sure enough, there still aren't any Disc priests in world-class progression guilds:

http://worldoflogs.com/ranking/eu-us/the-emerald-nightmare/xavius/mythic/hps/priest/discipline/

It's time to tell you guys why.

Haste is our worst stat!

How are theorycrafters able to simultaneously hold the thoughts in their heads that "Haste is our best stat by far" and "We're extremely mana limited"?

Haste is a TERRIBLE stat for Disc. EVERY OTHER STAT scales up throughput more than Haste unless you have unlimited mana to work with. And since we can blast out a raid-wide full-heal (1.2M to 1.8M per person) every 90 seconds for 300-700k mana (depending on raid size and talents) we're EXTREMELY MANA LIMITED.

Don't believe me? I actually calculated it out in this spreadsheet, AND I made every part of the sheet easy to understand and tinker with (at least, so far as spreadsheets go).

https://1drv.ms/x/s!Ar68K_i2wwbWhM8LarjWBtTPZNve3g

Important Factoids:
- With no haste (like my guy) you can easily toss out 20 Atonements for a huge Light's Wrath combo using Contrition or Power Infusion. That's enough for a full Mythic raid.
- The Light's Wrath combo costs 300-700k mana depending on group size, whether you stack some Pleas or not, etc. Which means that you WILL run out of mana if you play your cards right and max out your healing. There's a much higher return on investment for Disc vs other healers if we spend our mana well.
- Haste's throughput isn't free. The percentage increase to healing/second directly costs that same amount of extra mana/second, unless you can switch to cheaper spells to compensate. (I ran the numbers on doing this in 10 mans, feel free to check it out and cook up a high-haste, low-MPS playstyle)

How do I know this? Why should you listen to me? Sorry to sound like a condescending jerk, but this is high-school algebra/statistics, ladies and gentlemen. I don't need any credentials to comment on it. Haste is flat-out, mathematically bad for our class except at helping snipe heals on farm content.

Quit letting others hold you down with arguments that "Disc isn't a normal healing spec" or "At least we're doing some DPS" or "We're extremely mana limited". You CAN top the healing meter in EVERY FIGHT. Rise up, and heal so well that everyone else will be begging that Blizzard nerf us!
Ok so haste is bad. Then what is good?
Show us your logs and then we can talk
Spreadsheet for healers to prove a point

try getting up to 20 atonements with 0 haste in a real world scenario rofl.

11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
How do I know this? Why should you listen to me? Sorry to sound like a condescending jerk, but this is high-school algebra/statistics, ladies and gentlemen. I don't need any credentials to comment on it. Haste is flat-out, mathematically bad for our class except at helping snipe heals on farm content.


Why should people listen to someone who hasn't stepped foot into difficult content, and has rotations/formulas which are flat out wrong, over mythic raiders?
- Haste's throughput isn't free. The percentage increase to healing/second directly costs that same amount of extra mana/second, unless you can switch to cheaper spells to compensate. (I ran the numbers on doing this in 10 mans, feel free to check it out and cook up a high-haste, low-MPS playstyle)


hey pal not sure if you checked out our mana regen talent tier but that all scales with haste too :thinking:
again with this
11/23/2016 02:58 AMPosted by Andresitý
Show us your logs and then we can talk
11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
Hey guys, figured I'd swing by this forum and see what's up. Sure enough, there still aren't any Disc priests in world-class progression guilds:

http://worldoflogs.com/ranking/eu-us/the-emerald-nightmare/xavius/mythic/hps/priest/discipline/


World of Logs is your first problem.

11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
Haste is our worst stat!


No.

11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
https://1drv.ms/x/s!Ar68K_i2wwbWhM8LarjWBtTPZNve3g


You completely disregard the proven method of playing the class with your analysis. Bad input = bad output.

EDIT: You stole this from another idiot named Merciful who posted it a while ago and now you're trying to claim it as your own. LOL

11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
With no haste (like my guy) you can easily toss out 20 Atonements for a huge Light's Wrath combo using Contrition or Power Infusion. That's enough for a full Mythic raid.


Sure, you can get 20 Atonements out but you'll be down to 11-14 before you get a cast off. Haste increases the length of your burst window by decreasing the cast time of PWR.

11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
The Light's Wrath combo costs 300-700k mana depending on group size, whether you stack some Pleas or not, etc. Which means that you WILL run out of mana if you play your cards right and max out your healing. There's a much higher return on investment for Disc vs other healers if we spend our mana well.


Honestly, I'm missing the point you're trying to make here.

11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
Haste's throughput isn't free. The percentage increase to healing/second directly costs that same amount of extra mana/second, unless you can switch to cheaper spells to compensate. (I ran the numbers on doing this in 10 mans, feel free to check it out and cook up a high-haste, low-MPS playstyle)


You ran the numbers doing a 10 man? -__-

You completely disregard Shield Discipline scales with haste. Another thing: you're not casting more spells with more haste, you're casting the same amount of spells faster (maybe an extra PWR per burst, but I digress). Could you explain why that is more mana intensive?

11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
How do I know this? Why should you listen to me? Sorry to sound like a condescending jerk, but this is high-school algebra/statistics, ladies and gentlemen. I don't need any credentials to comment on it. Haste is flat-out, mathematically bad for our class except at helping snipe heals on farm content.


You have proven for us that when you do math on something you don't fundamentally understand, you look like an idiot. Again, bad inputs = bad outputs. You should educate yourself on what works in the real world, not what works in some cooked up spreadsheet you made.

11/23/2016 02:03 AMPosted by Runin
Quit letting others hold you down with arguments that "Disc isn't a normal healing spec" or "At least we're doing some DPS" or "We're extremely mana limited". You CAN top the healing meter in EVERY FIGHT. Rise up, and heal so well that everyone else will be begging that Blizzard nerf us!


Please prove to me your method works by showing you beating other healers in your percentile, not some potato healers in your 7/7N guild (on WarcraftLogs, not World of Logs which is not used by nearly anyone).

Honestly, you've proven your point already; you're just another one of these fools in a long line of fools trying to "disprove" the current method of playing Disc.

Give me proof your method works, and I'll change my mind. Until then, shut up.
So, the OP says he created a spreadsheet but then links to one that he didn't make.

This is going to get good. :popcorn:
11/23/2016 05:16 AMPosted by Aforethought
11/23/2016 02:58 AMPosted by Andresitý
Show us your logs and then we can talk
I have to agree and disagree. Haste makes content much easier but in 5 mans it does come with a higher mana cost. Stacking haste and crit has the unintended effect of dropping mastery. So the less mastery you have the less effective atonement healing is. So to accomplish the same hps with atonement, we now have to cast more and rely on sm more. Granted sm has a reduced cast time with does help tremendously. But in higher content your atonement will do next to nothing with haste and crit. Well unless you have a high crit chance then it somewhat evens it it or better but only if you are criting often.
11/23/2016 06:39 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
Haste makes content much easier but in 5 mans it does come with a higher mana cost


Except mana is irrelevant in 99% of scenarios in 5mans.

11/23/2016 06:39 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
Stacking haste and crit has the unintended effect of dropping mastery. So the less mastery you have the less effective atonement healing is.


Kinda, except that crit and mastery are relatively close in terms of amount of atonement healing generated, so its a moot point.

11/23/2016 06:39 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
But in higher content your atonement will do next to nothing with haste and crit.


People seriously overestimate the value of mastery. It doesnt add *that* much more over crit. For the vast majority, theyre equal. Mastery only really starts outweighing crit when you dont suck !@# at the game.

But if this whole post was about 5mans and not raids, then you arent stacking mastery in 5mans anyway. Its definitely supoptimal compared to crit. In raids, theyre more or less equal with mastery slightly outweighing crit.
Hey guys, figured I'd swing by this forum and see what's up. Sure enough, there still aren't any Disc priests in world-class progression guilds:


http://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/tarren-mill/Kin%C3%A1

Method, the world first guild, runs with a Disc Priest. His Disc priest wasn't present on Helya, but he was present for their Xavius progression/kill. It's not uncommon during the world first race to sit specific classes to utilize ones better suited for that specific encounter, but your assessment that no one is using Disc Priests at a higher than H/N level is wrong. Cheers.

Also, there's a guild called Lotion that I believe runs with a Disc Priest that parses super well and while they aren't top 20, they are hardly bad and in the top 35. I would consider anyone top 100 to be a world-class guild to be honest. Edit: He posted in this thread, so you can look him up directly.
All valid points but crit is a % chance while mastery is % increase. As I saidif you are criting often the yes crit is the way to go. Let's put it into prespective. While i had high mastery and crit my smite heal for 52k average without crits, 120k with crits. By stacking hast my smite now heals for 43k and 87k with crits. Yes it is true with haste I can now cast 4 smites in the time it use to cast 3. But unless a few of those crit, I've actually done less healing than if I was to stack only mastery and crit. Again haste will get you more chances to crit but if you're not criting then you are effectively healing for less with a higher mana cost because of the rate you're having to cast spells to compensate for lack of healing per cast.
11/23/2016 07:00 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
All valid points but crit is a % chance while mastery is % increase. As I saidif you are criting often the yes crit is the way to go


Stop with this meme. This is an old meme that crit isnt good because its not reliable. Do you realize how many combat events happen per second? Crit not being reliable (or overhealing) just isnt true.

11/23/2016 07:00 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
While i had high mastery and crit my smite heal for 52k average without crits, 120k with crits. By stacking hast my smite now heals for 43k and 87k with crits.


Such math, much wow (besides the fact there is errors in your spell amounts :/). Its almost as if there are other things going on besides casting smite...

11/23/2016 07:00 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
But unless a few of those crit, I've actually done less healing than if I was to stack only mastery and crit.


Maybe in the short term, maybe (not likely though).

See the thing is, on 1 target that has perma atonement on them, that you never need to apply, yes crit/mastery will yield more healing than haste. I don't think anyone has ever argued this (Theres a reason you stack crit/vers for dpsing).

But the thing is, this doesnt ever happen. Hence why crit/mastery are not stacked over haste.

11/23/2016 07:00 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
Again haste will get you more chances to crit but if you're not criting then you are effectively healing for less with a higher mana cost because of the rate you're having to cast spells to compensate for lack of healing per cast.


Again, this meme of crit isnt reliable really needs to stop. There are so many combat events/second that it doesnt happen (okay, it does because statistics are a thing, but for that .000001% time that you get an actual dry spell of not critting you have 99.999999% times where it doesnt happen).
Let's take crit from the equation for a sec. 3 casts of smite with my mastery high. 52k x 3=156k. 4 casts with haste, 43k x 4=172k. Granted I get 16k more heals for the same amount of time casting as I would with 3 but it took the cost of an extra smite to get only 16k. So there's a mana waste. Still excluding crit, I would have to rely even more on sm because I am healing less per cast from atonement. I understand the arguement people make when it comes to haste. It increases dps, mb, and the amount of ticks we get from swp. But mastery makes every dps spell worth more because we are not having to spam smite to make up for the loss of atonement healing.
11/23/2016 07:23 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
But mastery makes every dps spell worth more because we are not having to spam smite to make up for the loss of atonement healing.


Yes true.......... But the percentage increase in atonement healing per point, is nearly identical to crit. Thats the point. You seem to assume that crit doesnt increase your atonement healing too.

11/23/2016 07:23 AMPosted by Wubbabubble
I understand the arguement people make when it comes to haste. It increases dps, mb, and the amount of ticks we get from swp.


Thats not even the main reason for stacking haste....
Somebody loves their downvote button...

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