Melee vs caster in pvp

General Discussion
So, I have been trying to complete the weekly, to win 10 arena skirmishes, on my mage.

A few things are really coming to light, one of those things is just how much of an advantage melee have vs casters, the other thing is that mages specifically fire mages, have very few defensive abilities. (the last one, I realized in PvE a while ago)

One of the major problems that I have with the game right now, is that everybody has a counter spell, or a silence, and yet, very few classes have a disarm, or similar ability, (are disarms even still in the game), to disable a melee classes abilities. This seems to favor melee in pvp heavily. It would be nice, if casters could get some kind of disarm.

Another problem is stuns, any melee character can use a counterspell, and then close distance, and stun their target, rendering them helpless, until they are dead.
I think there should be a diminishing return on stuns, making them less effective per stun, much like fear, and polymorph effects.

One of the major issues, and this is a big one, is, almost every melee, has some kind of immunity effect or ability, these are defensive cooldowns, and are supposed to be used to keep the player alive, when they are in trouble, but they are very powerful in pvp situations, as an offensive ability.

Cloak of shadows, makes a rogue immune to all magical effects, for a few seconds, which is all the time they need to tear through a cloth caster, and kill them. My suggestion here, is that cloak of shadows, reduces the amount of damage that a rogue can deal, while it is active. It is meant as a defensive cooldown, and should be treated as such.

Paladin's bubble, makes them immune to all damage for a short time, once again, a defensive cooldown, which is a powerful offensive cooldown, in pvp. I think the damage that paladins deal while in a bubble should also be reduced.

Anti magic shell, makes a deathknight immune to magical damage, leaving them free to demolish any caster, without fear of being killed, or cc'd. While not as powerful as bubble, it is still a very real problem, as deathknights, can deathgrip, and control a caster much easier than a paladin can. Since this is also a defensive cooldown, it should also be treated as such. perhaps disable certain spells from being cast, by the deathknight, while they have anti magic shell active, like deathgrip, and death and decay.

Lets look at some of the other defensive cooldowns.

Dispersion, pacifies the priest.

iceblock, pacifies the mage.

Turtle (hunter, I don't remember the actual name of the spell), pacifies the hunter.

sacrificial pact, takes life from a controlled demon, or the warlock itself, and only reduces part of the damage taken.

As you can see, there is a huge difference, in the effectiveness, and the ability of the caster class to deal damage while they have their defensives activated.

hunters, who are ranged, can't be silenced, and can attack at range, I'm not sure where they are in the pvp world right now. What I do know, is that they don't heal nearly as much as most melee classes do right now.

I think Survival hunters actually need a buff to their self healing. I don't play a hunter, but I have friends that do. I know that it is a huge problem, in pvp.
Fire mage has never really been all that viable in PVP. I know because it's the new hotness in PVE this expac people think it will be for PVP but I don't see why it should be.

Try frost, as usual.
If you want to "disarm" a melee class just move more than 5 yards away from it.

Both melee and casters have stuns.

Mages counter paladins so hard that you really should be having no problem with them if you're playing your class correctly.
11/16/2016 12:34 PMPosted by Uglytroll
If you want to "disarm" a melee class just move more than 5 yards away from it.

Both melee and casters have stuns.

Mages counter paladins so hard that you really should be having no problem with them if you're playing your class correctly.


A single paladin, by itself, isn't a huge issue, but in arena, they aren't alone.

Moving 5 yards away from a melee class, isn't that easy, considering they have deathgrips, and stuns that work at range.

Yeah, I used to pvp in frost, but with the new artifact weapon it is just not viable to have to specialties. I can't afford to put artifact power into a second weapon right now.
you just need a healer and you will never lose to 2 melee again
Melee is broken beyond belief unfortunately. They have been in pretty much every expac almost, why would it change now?

Roll a melee class and join the club. Why do you think trade chat is always spammed with, "LF 2+ to fill our roster, RDPS!!!"? Because no one wants to play ranged.
Oddly in this expansion I'm finding ranged DPS are too damn durable. Warlock's can out soak and at times dps plate tanks and light us up with dots and other such nonsense. Hunters turtle ability is infuriating with the mobility they enjoy.

I've resigned myself to thinking it's always unfair until I'm lucky enough to win....1 out 10 times.
11/16/2016 01:01 PMPosted by Diabolickahl
11/16/2016 12:34 PMPosted by Uglytroll
If you want to "disarm" a melee class just move more than 5 yards away from it.

Both melee and casters have stuns.

Mages counter paladins so hard that you really should be having no problem with them if you're playing your class correctly.


A single paladin, by itself, isn't a huge issue, but in arena, they aren't alone.

Moving 5 yards away from a melee class, isn't that easy, considering they have deathgrips, and stuns that work at range.

Yeah, I used to pvp in frost, but with the new artifact weapon it is just not viable to have to specialties. I can't afford to put artifact power into a second weapon right now.


Luckily just like that paladin isn't alone in an arena match neither are you.

Maybe your partner can help lock down the melee with their own toolkit while you blow them up.

A few casters have real complaints like Ele shamans for pvp, but mages are doing well.
11/16/2016 01:21 PMPosted by Happyellen
Oddly in this expansion I'm finding ranged DPS are too damn durable. Warlock's can out soak and at times dps plate tanks and light us up with dots and other such nonsense. Hunters turtle ability is infuriating with the mobility they enjoy.

I've resigned myself to thinking it's always unfair until I'm lucky enough to win....1 out 10 times.


I mean this in a non-insulting way although you may take it as such.

If you are losing a lot vs. other players in arena perhaps you need more practice and better teamwork with your partner before blaming class balance?

Arena can be very humbling. There are a lot of good players out there and this may come to a shock to a lot of people but you may not be as good as you think you are.
11/16/2016 01:21 PMPosted by Argorwal
11/16/2016 01:01 PMPosted by Diabolickahl
...

A single paladin, by itself, isn't a huge issue, but in arena, they aren't alone.

Moving 5 yards away from a melee class, isn't that easy, considering they have deathgrips, and stuns that work at range.

Yeah, I used to pvp in frost, but with the new artifact weapon it is just not viable to have to specialties. I can't afford to put artifact power into a second weapon right now.


Luckily just like that paladin isn't alone in an arena match neither are you.

Maybe your partner can help lock down the melee with their own toolkit while you blow them up.

A few casters have real complaints like Ele shamans for pvp, but mages are doing well.


Frost mages, have always had a nice toolkit for handling melee, unfortunately I can't afford to pump my AP in to my frost weapon, just for pvp.

Classes are pretty much stuck with the specialization they choose as their main until they max out their weapon, and can afford to level a second one.

As far as working with my partner, this is arena skirmishes. there is little to no communication during a match.

I will be honest, my mage isn't my main, and I am not as good at it, as I should be.

It doesn't matter what I do against a deathknight, they will destroy me, there is no pealing, and deathgrip, and their slows are very powerful. they usually wait until I am forced to blink away, to deathgrip me right back.
I think the real issue here is git gud. I'm doing fine on my Elemental.

A good Frost Mage kites melee around like it's nothing.

Warlocks are nigh unkillable while also doing huge spread pressure (Affliction) or instant cleave burst (Destruction).

As Elemental I just Frost Shock and Ghost Wolf out of melee range because it just ignores slows. On top of having an instant root, a leap forward, Hex, Thunderstorm, and a lot of instant burst.

Spriest is just Spriest. They suck in 1v1 and 2v2, against both melee and casters, but they're a really strong spec in 3s and RBGs so it's not something Blizzard is gonna change.

Yeah good melee can be oppressive, but casters aren't hopeless.
11/16/2016 03:52 PMPosted by Diabolickahl
11/16/2016 01:21 PMPosted by Argorwal
...

Luckily just like that paladin isn't alone in an arena match neither are you.

Maybe your partner can help lock down the melee with their own toolkit while you blow them up.

A few casters have real complaints like Ele shamans for pvp, but mages are doing well.


Frost mages, have always had a nice toolkit for handling melee, unfortunately I can't afford to pump my AP in to my frost weapon, just for pvp.

Classes are pretty much stuck with the specialization they choose as their main until they max out their weapon, and can afford to level a second one.

As far as working with my partner, this is arena skirmishes. there is little to no communication during a match.

I will be honest, my mage isn't my main, and I am not as good at it, as I should be.

It doesn't matter what I do against a deathknight, they will destroy me, there is no pealing, and deathgrip, and their slows are very powerful. they usually wait until I am forced to blink away, to deathgrip me right back.


My only advice is to practice more and try to become a better player instead of viewing things as class imbalances.

Also, you could probably forgo 1 point in fire and use that AP to put 18 points into frost which more than makes it good enough.

Heck, 1-13 is like 10k AP which is about 2 WQs with AK where it is now.

You don't even have to worry about gearing frost due to the templates.
I did it no problem yesterday on My mage On all 3 specs for fun. you need a partner who knows how to pressure , I suggest a WW monk or ret paladin. Don't go in with randoms cause majority of people in skrims don't know how to cc properly ,or even know what a focus macro is lol
Fire mage is generally actually less of a target than frost mage is, because of molten armor. You passively take less damage than a frost mage.

If your problem is handling multiple melee, I'd suggest using sheep. If a dk uses ams, blink behind a pillar (blink heals fire mages btw). If a monk uses karma, sheep him. If a rogue uses cloak trade ice barrier (i think fire mages have it) or block.

If you're struggling landing sheeps, remember that you can start sheep cast, and blink with shimmer to avoid the kick. Shimmer works on everything but greater pyroblast, I believe.

tl;dr, mages are probably the only casters that can't complain about melee atm, pretty much every other one can.
I think Survival hunters actually need a buff to their self healing. I don't play a hunter, but I have friends that do. I know that it is a huge problem, in pvp.


I stated this myself in a post I think last week.

Survival Hunter heals are a joke they have less healing than the other spec of that particular class. Which makes no sense unless the intention was to designs horribly.
11/16/2016 08:10 PMPosted by Yahzarah
I think Survival hunters actually need a buff to their self healing. I don't play a hunter, but I have friends that do. I know that it is a huge problem, in pvp.


I stated this myself in a post I think last week.

Survival Hunter heals are a joke they have less healing than the other spec of that particular class. Which makes no sense unless the intention was to designs horribly.


Don't say that! They will nerf MM and bm healing even more now making us less viable for arenas. Check MM hunter, button spec shared w/ ele
11/16/2016 01:21 PMPosted by Happyellen
Oddly in this expansion I'm finding ranged DPS are too damn durable. Warlock's can out soak and at times dps plate tanks and light us up with dots and other such nonsense. Hunters turtle ability is infuriating with the mobility they enjoy.

I've resigned myself to thinking it's always unfair until I'm lucky enough to win....1 out 10 times.


Wait. Are you saying that as your Paladin. Are you damn kidding me.
11/16/2016 12:06 PMPosted by Diabolickahl

Cloak of shadows, makes a rogue immune to all magical effects, for a few seconds, which is all the time they need to tear through a cloth caster, and kill them. My suggestion here, is that cloak of shadows, reduces the amount of damage that a rogue can deal, while it is active. It is meant as a defensive cooldown, and should be treated as such.


>.< You can't be serious.
Your mistake was trying to play fire in arena without having years and years of top rank experience, or a team that's willing to put up with having to outplay the other team 100% of the time to maybe score a win.

That said, skirms are more about volume than actual play quality. Just keep doing it and eventually you'll score enough freebies to get the 10. That, or partner up with a FDK or WW.
11/16/2016 10:29 PMPosted by Teneea
Your mistake was trying to play fire in arena without having years and years of top rank experience, or a team that's willing to put up with having to outplay the other team 100% of the time to maybe score a win.

That said, skirms are more about volume than actual play quality. Just keep doing it and eventually you'll score enough freebies to get the 10. That, or partner up with a FDK or WW.


So what you are saying, is that in order to beat the average button mashing melee, i have to have extremely high skills, on my alt, which is a mage, and a team willing to work with me, and help me?

That almost sounds like you understand my problem here!

Sure, I could get really good on my mage, and wreck melee classes, but I am only partially proficient. And I am fire, because that is my main spec, and most powerful right now.

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