I have to give up on all my alts.

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Sounds like OP wants a bunch of mains. I just levelled an alt and after 1day and two hours, she has an ilvl of 849. Herbalism is 800 and alchemy is in the high 700's. She has rank two flasks and a rank two potion that I can use. This is what I think an alt should be. I will occasionally play her to farm some herbs or do the odd quest for order resources to keep her artifact knowledge going. Now, I am working on another alt to do the same thing.
It is true, leveling isn't so bad, but the grind to make your alt relevant with all the WQ and required dungeons for whatever is way more of a drain. I've never had an issue running a main and 3 alts, but it's too much of a time sink this x-pac.
12/19/2016 04:34 PMPosted by Blammo
It is true, leveling isn't so bad, but the grind to make your alt relevant with all the WQ and required dungeons for whatever is way more of a drain. I've never had an issue running a main and 3 alts, but it's too much of a time sink this x-pac.


How do you define relevant? I literally have 26 hours at 110 on this toon and I think she is relevant. Sure, I won't be getting into heroic raids but she can do mythic dungeons for profession quest related materials.
12/19/2016 02:53 PMPosted by Motors

There seems to be this idea that when i talk about alts i am talking about 1 or 2 toons or maybe even 3. I am not, for those that have not bothered to read through the whole thread, i am talking about my 40+ level 100s.

And how many of those level 40+ alts were level 100 with ilvl 670 gear just 3 months into WoD? For that matter, what are their ilvls right now?

I'm willing to bet most of those alts didn't even exist when WoD started and the only reason you have them now was there was nothing better to do over the 21 months WoD lasted.

Why do you still need to have 40 level capped, perfectly geared alts now? Why wouldn't 12 (one of each class) be enough for you? Why is it important that they all have gear right now instead of gearing them up one by one over the next 20 months the expansion will last?

Alts are something to do when you run out of things to do on your main(s) and still have time left to play. If you don't have enough time left to play them all, then pick the ones that are most important to you and ignore the rest.

You need to learn moderation. The Rolling Stones have some really good advice for you:

You can't always get what you want.

But if you try some time

You just might find

You get what you need.

Focus on what you need. Then if you have time left over, work on what you want.
I think my only gripe with leveling alts is the constant re-grinding of reps.

None of the rest of it really bothers me but, man, when I step into Suramar again for the 7th-8th time to start that treadmill...
12/19/2016 04:10 PMPosted by Hateorade
12/19/2016 12:28 PMPosted by Qtfiend
...
6

3 above 860 and 3 850-860

then I have a DH I dont really play but is 110 and around 850ish I cant remember Ill post this on that toon to check

848 it seems


You're running yourself raggid. If you're not pushing content though there really isn't a rush.

I use to have the same problem, always wanted to play everything. Once I stuck with a toon, got into a guild, and started progessing I've had WAY more fun. Just sayin'


not at all. I do the dailies for my main and 3 alts each day then I may do some M+ on one of them or maybe some old raid xmog or anything.

This delusion that you need to raid on every character is whats stopping people from enjoying a class they may want to play but think "I wont be a viable cutting edge character". Even when they arent even cutting edge with a single toon.

I used to raid a few years ago with the old norm/hero. I think I even got heroic gary AOTC but I just dont have the time to dedicate 2-3 nights a week to the game anymore. I still do PUG raids and M+ but its just not the be all end all to me it used to be. I enjoy a lot of the playstyles of the different classes and would rather be behind the curve and enjoying myself than ahead and like you said running ragged trying to stay on top.

People forget this game is 12 years old and a lot of people have experienced things years ago but stick around because they love the game and just moved onto a more casual playstyle
12/17/2016 12:59 PMPosted by Motors
Alt-friendly


It shouldn't be alt friendly its Mmorpg. Thank god blizz moved away from this crap.

And yet it still isn't as bad as 99% of you make out.
12/19/2016 02:53 PMPosted by Motors
12/19/2016 01:12 PMPosted by Frau
...

No, the difference is that in Legion, there are loads of things you have to do in order to be competitive on just a single toon.

I am a PvPer and I spend far more time doing world quests for Artifact Power than I do actual PvP.


This.

There seems to be this idea that when i talk about alts i am talking about 1 or 2 toons or maybe even 3. I am not, for those that have not bothered to read through the whole thread, i am talking about my 40+ level 100s.

There also seems to be this idea that leveling is the problem, it is not. Leveling is as easy for me now as it has ever been, i have a system and it works well and i will level the toons as i get motivation to do so.

The problem i am talking about here is that i have a lack of motivation to play my alts BECAUSE of how much time is required to get them playable after i hit 110. In this case ready for PvP requires a lot of time. As i said earlier in the thread i have played up to 8 toons in a season and under the current system there is just too much to be done to make that possible.

Now i know i am an altaholic and it should be obvious or i wouldn't have 40+ toons at level 100 or more. I DO NOT expect them to make the leveling easier, i DO NOT care about the leveling experience all at once, i will get to it provided i can get motivated. What the problem is, is that this expansion is so alt-unfriendly (meaning i cannot gear my toons in a somewhat reasonable amount of time to make them competetive) that i have almost all motivation to play WoW and am only logging in for short periods to run my "main" and bank toons.

I get that there is more to do, some have argued that the more to do is grind, i am not sure how i feel about that. I do feel there is more grind in the game for each toon but i also feel there is more ways to grow your toon once hitting the level cap which is definitely a good thing.

There are lots of things that could be done to enhance the alt experience that are not game breaking and would be of great help to someone like me and other altaholics. That is what i am trying to bring light too, not just press a few buttons and have all my alts be geared at once or some other ridiculous thing.

I don't think fighting to improve the game for altaholics is a bad thing and should hopefully broaden the game experience for everyone. Why does it matter that i want to be able to play any of my 5 Paladins as i see fit by having them be playable in a reasonable amount of time, not months after they hit max level (for each toon no less)? It shouldn't but some people seem to think that it does, i would like to know WHY people feel that way.


So, you're asking for less to do so that you can have more alts. Because any system where there is anything that "can" be done to improve a toon will send you, and people like you, crying to forums about how you are "forced" to do it, You are forced to do nothing. If you "WANT" a more competitive toon, you will have to work at it. IF you "WANT" more alts, you'll have to work at that also. And if you "WANT" both, you'll have to work extra hard. Regardless, it's 100% YOUR CHOICE. So locate your spine Nancy and stop crying about playing a video game.
12/17/2016 12:59 PMPosted by Motors
There is just too much of a time constriction and this expansion is not Alt-friendly at all. It's not the end of the world, just an acknowledgement of the reality. Just my "main" and bank toons. Just no way to get other toons to be useful or playable this expansion.

I hope someone is listening as i would like to have time to play my other toons and there are some simple fixes that would make it possible. Maybe next expansion i can get back to the toons if they go back to making it possible to get gear a "starter" set without a massive grindfest for each toon including the weapon which is still 1/2 a month or more out from catching my main even as he has been catching up for the last 2 months and is still 4 AK away.

Still having fun in Legion, just not as much since i am so limited now with just 1 toon to be able to put the time into.


What would you define as a "useful" or "playable" level for your alts that you seem unable to attain?

2 gold traits? 35 traits? 2 Legendary especially?
Why do you define it where you do?
12/19/2016 03:02 PMPosted by Omegazor
People are just giving up for no reason. Making excuses that really aren't even close to valid. The fact is there is the same amount of progression as there ever was, there's just more ways to go about it now.


There are more ways to go about advancing and that IS a good thing. But it is not giving up for no reason, i have outlined all throughout this thread WHY i feel i have to leave my alts behind, that is not "for no reason". You can feel they are excuses all you want, but that is still how i and others feel.

12/19/2016 03:02 PMPosted by Omegazor
People want to acquiesce to defeat before they even try. Well, if I don't start with a level 900 weapon, how can I even play the game!?


No one said, this, you are saying it so it really doesn't mean much. In fact you said leaving the weapon unimproved would be just fine, no need to do anything with it and you could still be successful which is just flat out wrong.

12/19/2016 03:02 PMPosted by Omegazor
I've only got 2 relics on my weapon, and however many power upgrades I earned in a week or so, yet I can go up to to some super geared player and compare my lowly 815 weapon to their massive 894 weapon and sure, they've got more bigger numbers than me, but if we could swap my overall numbers would only go up a 1 percent, maybe 2 while theirs probably wouldn't even go down a whole percent.


If you think that there is no weapon difference for people between 750 and 900 as you stated earlier in the thread, i can see how you feel this is the case even if in reality it is not. Still waiting for you to tell me how that experience of staying with a fresh 750 weapon and trying to do content goes.

12/19/2016 03:49 PMPosted by Omegazor
So you didn't have to grind for a weapon on alts before Legion to play PVP? I don't get it? I don't remember hitting cap and being handed a top tier weapon in the past. In fact, the way I remember is that once your alt was geared with heroic level gear, they weren't going to go any further without actively raiding, which is a hard enough gig to line up on your main.

So I don't know where you get this fantasy fairy tale story where in the past you could play 50 alts and they just magically were geared without ever having to spend a minute playing them. You had to put just as much time gearing them up in heroics as you have to spend now, in fact, since I am over heroic level gear after just a couple days at cap, I'd say now it's a lot faster.


As with most people that are against easing the alt experience you have this idea that i somehow have asked to be handed a full tiered weapon (never said that) and full gear (never said that either). You can keep on with this argument but i have never ever asked for this. I have asked for them to ease up on the time requirement. From my perspective and a lot of others the time constraint to (for instance in my case PvP) get alts up to being competitive is harsh, much more harsh than it has been in the past.

As far as the 50 alt thing (40+ in my case), they will get leveled up eventually and i have no problem with that, as i said earlier in the thread i don't expect them to get all leveled fast but i would like to not have my motivation to level them destroyed by the harsh time requirements to make them playable.

12/19/2016 04:13 PMPosted by Roxette
I wonder how many people would be supporting OP if he pointed up he was talking about 40 max level toons in the opening post. Probably none. Of course, it is going to take time to lvl up and gear up 40 max level toons, especially since the garrison allowed you to sit and click your way to gear in WoD.

He is obviously a multiboxer and I guess things aren't as simple for multi boxers this expansion.


I have said several times how many alts i have, i am an admitted altaholic. People would still support me and my opinion because LOTS of other people feel the same way regardless of the number of alts they have. And by the way i am not a multiboxer, they are all on one account i have been playing almost since the game went live (12+ years ago).

12/19/2016 04:21 PMPosted by Xiomar
12/17/2016 07:51 PMPosted by Lannor
Making artifact knowledge account wide would alleviate a lot of this.

- P

And reputation...


Among other improvements.
OK, one critical detail was missing - the OP said in another comment (Page 2) that he is primarily PvP-oriented (as I am). In that regard, I do completely agree that this expansion is not alt-friendly at all.

The entry barriers for PvP players enjoying the content at 110 are much higher than for PvE players:

1) PvP players have an additional talent tree (Honor Talents) to work on. PvE players can skip this entirely.

2) PvP is a slow grind up to get gear. In PvE, you only need to be carried in raids to collect a few upgrades in a single afternoon. Let's not even talk about legendary acquisition.

3) PvE Content (World Quests) are the primary source of Artifact Power.

If we skip the above and just dive right into PvP at 110, we have a very miserable experience getting killed within the duration of a 5 pt Kidney Shot. PvEers on the other hand, can be safely carried in a raid or dungeon so long as they don't stand in goop, because bosses don't target the lowest health player as players themselves do.

Also, you can raid with your guild on a couple of runs each week, one lockout per each alt, making progress on each toon. In PvP, there is no such thing. Any time spent on your alt is time wasted for your main.

So what do most of us PvPers do? We sit our alts until a couple of months have passed and AP levels have built up, then we do lots of PvE content to collect AP, then we do some BGs to work on that Honor Talent tree. Then... we can finally start seeing some success in the content we like.

That paradigm is the complete opposite of "alt-friendly". I am sure most of those who disagree with the OP are aiming for Mythic raid progression, not arena titles.
12/17/2016 04:43 PMPosted by Hippeaux
12/17/2016 04:41 PMPosted by Motors
Why on earth would anyone downvote this?

Listing all the things you don't like isn't as helpful to the devs as listing what you wish they'd done instead. I think a lot of the yo-yo design decisions they make are partly because they're trying to guess what players want since we're generally a lot better at telling them what we don't want.


This is the exact opposite of what devs say.

They don't like having "fixes" suggested most of the time. They say they want to know what people don't like and why.

I'm not saying that suggestions can't help. But (especially with the recent Blizz devs) they are going to do their own thing and use their own ideas anyways. At least we can tell them what we don't like and why. They've shown they're not listening anyway
12/19/2016 04:34 PMPosted by Blammo
It is true, leveling isn't so bad, but the grind to make your alt relevant with all the WQ and required dungeons for whatever is way more of a drain. I've never had an issue running a main and 3 alts, but it's too much of a time sink this x-pac.


Exactly.

12/19/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Joynal
And how many of those level 40+ alts were level 100 with ilvl 670 gear just 3 months into WoD? For that matter, what are their ilvls right now?


I could log into everyone of them and post but that would be a waste of time, most of the newer ones have the ilvl 700 pre-event gear as was necessary, some of them have ilvl 660 where i left them after S1 of WoD. As for 3 months, that would depened, in WoD i could log in and get my 10 games a week done to buy gear in a relatively short amount of time for ALL of my gear including the weapon. That is why i was playing up to 8 toons a season and gearing them out and playing them.

12/19/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Joynal
I'm willing to bet most of those alts didn't even exist when WoD started and the only reason you have them now was there was nothing better to do over the 21 months WoD lasted.


Most of them did in fact exist and were level capped before WoD as i had about 25-30 of them prior to that expansion, but i do admit i made 6 or 7 of them and leveled them fully (1-100) through the Legion pre-expansion event which was an XP bonanza if you did it right.

12/19/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Joynal
Why do you still need to have 40 level capped, perfectly geared alts now? Why wouldn't 12 (one of each class) be enough for you? Why is it important that they all have gear right now instead of gearing them up one by one over the next 20 months the expansion will last?


I don't NEED anything. I want and i want the game to allow me to play what i want how i want. That is what this whole thread is asking for. I want them to ease up on the time constraints required to get things. That doesn't mean they will, but i am expressing what i want and why. Not what i need.

12/19/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Joynal
Alts are something to do when you run out of things to do on your main(s) and still have time left to play. If you don't have enough time left to play them all, then pick the ones that are most important to you and ignore the rest.


This is what YOUR alts mean to you. In the past i have not really adhered to even having a "main" since i played so many toons at one time. Most of my toons i have played in the past as equals, can't do that this expansion. It feels like the first toon i leveled is my main and all else is less regardless of anything i do. And THAT is what i am trying to make an argument for them to work on and fix.

12/19/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Joynal
You need to learn moderation. The Rolling Stones have some really good advice for you:

You can't always get what you want.

But if you try some time

You just might find

You get what you need.

Focus on what you need. Then if you have time left over, work on what you want.


I have plenty of moderation, and you are right i will not always get what i want. But if i don't ask i never will. If i don't make logical arguments and make my voice heard then nothing will happen ever. No change will come about. So here i am trying to get what i want.

12/19/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Cirania
I think my only gripe with leveling alts is the constant re-grinding of reps.

None of the rest of it really bothers me but, man, when I step into Suramar again for the 7th-8th time to start that treadmill...


Just another thing on the list.

12/19/2016 05:28 PMPosted by Meowfiend
This delusion that you need to raid on every character is whats stopping people from enjoying a class they may want to play but think "I wont be a viable cutting edge character". Even when they arent even cutting edge with a single toon.


Not what i am asking for. I am asking for them to ease up on all the grind for EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TOON. Most people will never even come close to leveling 5 alts nevermind doing 40+ of them. However improving the ALT experience will affect a large portion of the playerbase and in my opinion is a gameplay improvement that will help keep people motivated to play the game.

12/19/2016 05:41 PMPosted by Zerjan
12/17/2016 12:59 PMPosted by Motors
Alt-friendly


It shouldn't be alt friendly its Mmorpg. Thank god blizz moved away from this crap.

And yet it still isn't as bad as 99% of you make out.


Why shouldn't it be? What in MMORPG says "needs to be alt-unfriendly"?

12/19/2016 06:22 PMPosted by Spy
So, you're asking for less to do so that you can have more alts. Because any system where there is anything that "can" be done to improve a toon will send you, and people like you, crying to forums about how you are "forced" to do it, You are forced to do nothing. If you "WANT" a more competitive toon, you will have to work at it. IF you "WANT" more alts, you'll have to work at that also. And if you "WANT" both, you'll have to work extra hard. Regardless, it's 100% YOUR CHOICE. So locate your spine Nancy and stop crying about playing a video game.


I am not asking less for everyone to do, and i have not said that asked for them to remove content, if people love the grind let them grind away on their alts. I have been playing the game a long time and have never come "crying to the forums about how i am forced to do it" that is you making hyperbole to create an argument. I have worked at having competitive alts for years and years, that is nothing new, what is NEW is the amount of grind to make it happen(not talking about leveling from 100-110 but all the other grind necessary).

It is my choice whether i play them or not and i have made that choice and now am on the forums explaining it and why i have lost motivation to spend a lot of time in the game. That is a consequence of losing altaholics (less people in game). As far as calling me a name and telling me to get a spine, it makes no sense, i am here answering folks posts like yours so clearly i don't need to get a spine as i already have one, nor am i crying but simply stating my opinion and why it is so. That way when people start asking why the population of servers has dropped this is one thread they can point to and understand why people who used to play the game alot are no longer around.

Also it is my right as a customer to criticize or offer up ideas (however you see it) on how to improve a product i have used for the last 12+ years regardless of whether people agree with me or not.
12/20/2016 10:48 AMPosted by Frau
The entry barriers for PvP players enjoying the content at 110 are much higher than for PvE players:


No, they aren't. Its still wanting alts to be main-ready with little to no effort. Whether that's decked out in 870 gear or 50 pvp levels, its the same thing.

PvP is far more alt friendly that it was in the past. You can actually be competitive just by queuing.
It was difficult at the beginning but i've gotten to the point where my main weapon is maxed and my offspec weapon is almost maxed. So I don't have to focus on my main as much. My few alts that have been sitting at 110 since the first month almost have 20 artifact power. Like usual, the xpac is getting more alt friendly the longer it goes on.
12/20/2016 11:11 AMPosted by Motors
Also it is my right as a customer to criticize or offer up ideas (however you see it) on how to improve a product i have used for the last 12+ years regardless of whether people agree with me or not.
I think you need to work on expressing your ideas better. Your OP reads like it's a problem in general and you have no solutions in it, but it's actually only a problem for those who want to "main" more than one character. From what little I know of the PvP world, it's understandable as it doesn't take as long to climb the rank tree or finish what you do weekly, but it's now relying on doing massive amounts of PvE on top of PvP gearing. In the PvE world, the time constraints in making more than one main have always been there. At least it was when I was insane and did that in MoP.

I agree, it's not reasonable to swap to an alt character in PvP especially since before Legion launched it was sold as if PvP was going to be a lot more fair in regards to gearing. Clearly with the reliance on the artifact weapon, it is not.

To be honest, I didn't expect the weapon to even be usable in PvP (just in the world or pve instances) and that there were going to be alternate seasonal weapons.
Ah, yes, this again.

Didn't read the rest of the replies, but did read the OP. Apologies if this has been said to death already in the 8 pages of this thread.

You are (like many people with your same complaint) confusing "alts" with "additional mains".

You see, if you were actually talking about alts, and treating them as alts (hint: alt means alternate character) then you would accept the fact that an alt character will always be behind a main character. That's the point. It's in the word "alt".

What you want are multiple mains, all on the same level of progression as each other.

1. Off-spec's are already easy as heck to keep up because of how AK works. After getting 35 traits in my main spec weapon (Ret - Ashbringer) I was able to get 25 traits in ONE DAY of AP farming for my off-spec weapon (Holy - SIlver Hand). It's going to take me MAYBE another week or two of light playing to get my off-spec weapon to 35 traits.

2. Alts (remember "alt", not additional mains) already do have a catch up system that has been in game since Legion dropped. If you were to start AK on an alt right now, you would see that the time between AK orders at lower levels is drastically reduced compared to AK orders at higher levels. To the point where most people's alts are only 1-3 AK levels behind their mains.

3. 7.1.5 is the patch that you actually need for what you're actually asking for, which is multiple mains. Not only will this make it even easier to get alts up faster (which is why I am waiting for 7.1.5 to start my first alt), but with the ability to buy AK up to minus 5 of your main, you can then truly have multiple mains if you want.

Also (again, not reading through 8 pages of this thread) after skimming the first page, I get the impression that you do/did not know that you can send the order resource caches that you buy at the blood vendor to your alts.

It's mindboggling that you have the time and dedication to not only make a forum post about this, but also reply for 8 pages without knowing basic info on the things you're complaining about.
12/20/2016 10:48 AMPosted by Frau
OK, one critical detail was missing - the OP said in another comment (Page 2) that he is primarily PvP-oriented (as I am). In that regard, I do completely agree that this expansion is not alt-friendly at all.

The entry barriers for PvP players enjoying the content at 110 are much higher than for PvE players:

1) PvP players have an additional talent tree (Honor Talents) to work on. PvE players can skip this entirely.

2) PvP is a slow grind up to get gear. In PvE, you only need to be carried in raids to collect a few upgrades in a single afternoon. Let's not even talk about legendary acquisition.

3) PvE Content (World Quests) are the primary source of Artifact Power.

If we skip the above and just dive right into PvP at 110, we have a very miserable experience getting killed within the duration of a 5 pt Kidney Shot. PvEers on the other hand, can be safely carried in a raid or dungeon so long as they don't stand in goop, because bosses don't target the lowest health player as players themselves do.

Also, you can raid with your guild on a couple of runs each week, one lockout per each alt, making progress on each toon. In PvP, there is no such thing. Any time spent on your alt is time wasted for your main.

So what do most of us PvPers do? We sit our alts until a couple of months have passed and AP levels have built up, then we do lots of PvE content to collect AP, then we do some BGs to work on that Honor Talent tree. Then... we can finally start seeing some success in the content we like.

That paradigm is the complete opposite of "alt-friendly". I am sure most of those who disagree with the OP are aiming for Mythic raid progression, not arena titles.


Pretty much this.

12/20/2016 11:28 AMPosted by Mvura
12/20/2016 10:48 AMPosted by Frau
The entry barriers for PvP players enjoying the content at 110 are much higher than for PvE players:


No, they aren't. Its still wanting alts to be main-ready with little to no effort. Whether that's decked out in 870 gear or 50 pvp levels, its the same thing.

PvP is far more alt friendly that it was in the past. You can actually be competitive just by queuing.


No it isn't. You could get a weapon that was good for the entire season within about 5 weeks of entering each season and that weapon was good to go for the season. Everyone was pretty much at the same gear level once you got your initial set of PvP gear as you could only progress so far within a given week. And gearing was much more orderly.

And no, you cannot be competetive just by queing. That is just not true. Try taking your main out for a spin and then try taking a brand new 110 out and see how they compare (not that i need them to hand me all the gear at once or anything like that, i am only saying this to refute your assertion that just by queing you are somehow competetive).

12/20/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Ríza
It was difficult at the beginning but i've gotten to the point where my main weapon is maxed and my offspec weapon is almost maxed. So I don't have to focus on my main as much. My few alts that have been sitting at 110 since the first month almost have 20 artifact power. Like usual, the xpac is getting more alt friendly the longer it goes on.


This is only true until they add more to your weapon with the next patch. Even though they are making AK easier to get off the bat (and even that will require still more farming for order resources) alts will still be at a disadvantage. And of course you will be compelled to play your alt the moment there is new additions that must be gotten for your weapon.

12/20/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Mystberry
I think you need to work on expressing your ideas better. Your OP reads like it's a problem in general and you have no solutions in it, but it's actually only a problem for those who want to "main" more than one character. From what little I know of the PvP world, it's understandable as it doesn't take as long to climb the rank tree or finish what you do weekly, but it's now relying on doing massive amounts of PvE on top of PvP gearing. In the PvE world, the time constraints in making more than one main have always been there. At least it was when I was insane and did that in MoP.

I agree, it's not reasonable to swap to an alt character in PvP especially since before Legion launched it was sold as if PvP was going to be a lot more fair in regards to gearing. Clearly with the reliance on the artifact weapon, it is not.

To be honest, I didn't expect the weapon to even be usable in PvP (just in the world or pve instances) and that there were going to be alternate seasonal weapons.


OK, i will take that, perhaps i need to express my ideas better. But this thread was not created to really express ideas, it was made to show the frustration of trying to play Alt's. However i should always strive to do better when conveying my thoughts.

50 levels of talents for PvP to open ON EVERY SINGLE TOON is another problem and yes, if you want to be able to be at your most effective, you must do this grind also.

I did feel the 1 weapon would be what we had, what i was not expecting was all the large quantities of grind and side grinds that would be necessary to make toons playable. And that is where the time constraints come in. Just to make toons playable is a MASSIVE amount of time for each toon.
12/20/2016 11:49 AMPosted by Motors
12/20/2016 10:48 AMPosted by Frau
OK, one critical detail was missing - the OP said in another comment (Page 2) that he is primarily PvP-oriented (as I am). In that regard, I do completely agree that this expansion is not alt-friendly at all.

The entry barriers for PvP players enjoying the content at 110 are much higher than for PvE players:

1) PvP players have an additional talent tree (Honor Talents) to work on. PvE players can skip this entirely.

2) PvP is a slow grind up to get gear. In PvE, you only need to be carried in raids to collect a few upgrades in a single afternoon. Let's not even talk about legendary acquisition.

3) PvE Content (World Quests) are the primary source of Artifact Power.

If we skip the above and just dive right into PvP at 110, we have a very miserable experience getting killed within the duration of a 5 pt Kidney Shot. PvEers on the other hand, can be safely carried in a raid or dungeon so long as they don't stand in goop, because bosses don't target the lowest health player as players themselves do.

Also, you can raid with your guild on a couple of runs each week, one lockout per each alt, making progress on each toon. In PvP, there is no such thing. Any time spent on your alt is time wasted for your main.

So what do most of us PvPers do? We sit our alts until a couple of months have passed and AP levels have built up, then we do lots of PvE content to collect AP, then we do some BGs to work on that Honor Talent tree. Then... we can finally start seeing some success in the content we like.

That paradigm is the complete opposite of "alt-friendly". I am sure most of those who disagree with the OP are aiming for Mythic raid progression, not arena titles.


Pretty much this.

12/20/2016 11:28 AMPosted by Mvura
...

No, they aren't. Its still wanting alts to be main-ready with little to no effort. Whether that's decked out in 870 gear or 50 pvp levels, its the same thing.

PvP is far more alt friendly that it was in the past. You can actually be competitive just by queuing.


No it isn't. You could get a weapon that was good for the entire season within about 5 weeks of entering each season and that weapon was good to go for the season. Everyone was pretty much at the same gear level once you got your initial set of PvP gear as you could only progress so far within a given week. And gearing was much more orderly.

And no, you cannot be competetive just by queing. That is just not true. Try taking your main out for a spin and then try taking a brand new 110 out and see how they compare (not that i need them to hand me all the gear at once or anything like that, i am only saying this to refute your assertion that just by queing you are somehow competetive).

12/20/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Ríza
It was difficult at the beginning but i've gotten to the point where my main weapon is maxed and my offspec weapon is almost maxed. So I don't have to focus on my main as much. My few alts that have been sitting at 110 since the first month almost have 20 artifact power. Like usual, the xpac is getting more alt friendly the longer it goes on.


This is only true until they add more to your weapon with the next patch. Even though they are making AK easier to get off the bat (and even that will require still more farming for order resources) alts will still be at a disadvantage. And of course you will be compelled to play your alt the moment there is new additions that must be gotten for your weapon.

12/20/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Mystberry
I think you need to work on expressing your ideas better. Your OP reads like it's a problem in general and you have no solutions in it, but it's actually only a problem for those who want to "main" more than one character. From what little I know of the PvP world, it's understandable as it doesn't take as long to climb the rank tree or finish what you do weekly, but it's now relying on doing massive amounts of PvE on top of PvP gearing. In the PvE world, the time constraints in making more than one main have always been there. At least it was when I was insane and did that in MoP.

I agree, it's not reasonable to swap to an alt character in PvP especially since before Legion launched it was sold as if PvP was going to be a lot more fair in regards to gearing. Clearly with the reliance on the artifact weapon, it is not.

To be honest, I didn't expect the weapon to even be usable in PvP (just in the world or pve instances) and that there were going to be alternate seasonal weapons.


OK, i will take that, perhaps i need to express my ideas better. But this thread was not created to really express ideas, it was made to show the frustration of trying to play Alt's. However i should always strive to do better when conveying my thoughts.

50 levels of talents for PvP to open ON EVERY SINGLE TOON is another problem and yes, if you want to be able to be at your most effective, you must do this grind also.

I did feel the 1 weapon would be what we had, what i was not expecting was all the large quantities of grind and side grinds that would be necessary to make toons playable. And that is where the time constraints come in. Just to make toons playable is a MASSIVE amount of time for each toon.


You don't want alts.

You want multiple mains.
For me, the ail of alt irrelevance has little to do with the playtime necessary one needs to funnel into them to bring them "up to standard" and is mostly to do with time-gated content that no amount of playtime will alleviate or effectively hasten. The current "catch-up" mechanics implemented are woefully ineffective and accomplish next-to-nothing.

This is going to be at least somewhat amended in 7.1.5. Impossible to say if it will "feel" like enough; time will tell.

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