Why Survival Hunter Has Failed.

General Discussion
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I really want to disagree with you, but I can't on so many parts.

Do I enjoy SV more than MM (I don't play BM)? Yes. I do enjoy it more.

Is it effective? No, not in the least bit. It is my WQ and roaming spec. If I want to join an instance, I roll marksman.

The reason being is that either I can't figure out how to play it properly or I need to go PVP to get the gear I need...which is something I don't really want to do.

Also, They DO need to change a few things.

Giving ALL hunters traps discredits the idea of the SV hunter being the Trap expert. Wooohoooo we get one extra trap! FFS, at least give us Disengage and Deterrence back
For myself, I adore the current Survival spec.

In fact, the only reason I switched to a Hunter was because Legion gave the class a melee option. I understand that some think that Hunter should be RDPS all the time, every time, and too each their own.

Me? I've been playing D&D, Pathfinder, etc. since I was a teen and when I joined WoW just a few months ago I was shocked to learn that the Hunter has never had a proper melee class. It would be like playing a Ranger with no option to fight with two weapons, a sword and shield or a spear. I am sorry that Blizzard dismantled an entire spec on people who enjoyed the old Survival spec, I don't know why they didn't just make a new melee spec.

With that said, Survival still needs a lot of work. My experience with the class so far has been fantastic, but it lacks the polish of other specs. Better defensive/healing options or buffs; better single target damage, reduced cooldown on some abilities or at least reduce the focus consumption for them; bring back Disengage so we can zip in and out of combat when necessary.

Most talents need an overhaul as well, while some are flat out useless like Posthaste, Animal Instincts and Aspect of the Beast just too name a few. I do think that Camouflage should be backed into the class, useable while in combat to help set up attacks or remove yourself from a potentially deadly situation.

It's still rough around the edges, but I think that Survival will be a very fun class once all the kinks are worked out.
Honestly With survival, while I do miss the old survival rotation which I was used to, I have gotten accustomed to the new rotation.
Is it heavily rng-infested? Yes
Does it feel like just another melee spec? Yes
But more often than not when I do dungeons and get into the occasional mythic dungeon (when I get accepted and not declined because hur dur survival sucks) I consistently do better than most other people in there except for windwalker monks and other insane bursty classes.
Is it a change from what it used to be? Yes Do I like it anyway? Yes.
I'm honestly just more worried about 7.1.5 because there are some serious nerfs to survival when we are one of the dps that tends to be towards the bottom of the pack in the first place, but time will tell when that changes.

Also why on earth did we lose Misdirection? With the aoe in the world I consistently pull threat off my tank spec pet and flanking strike only transfers threat ONE TARGET AT A TIME at least make it have the pet grab threat from all mobs attacking you or give survival Misdirection back.
You keep your melee spec away from BM! Honestly there was no need for any hunter spec to be made melee.
01/02/2017 10:22 PMPosted by Stillpretty

Oh boy, have you looked at PVP. Almost every hunter over there is Survival Hunter. It literally dominates 2s and is pretty above average on 3s.


And that's literally only because of a single talent: Ranger's Net.

A spammable, ranged root & snare without diminishing returns on the snare with a 1 second cooldown, for god knows why. This is on top of the fact they also have Tar Trap and can spec into Caltrops (to replace tar trap), which also slows targets. Caltrops also damages targets. Combine with conveniently placed Explosive Traps, and spec into Throwing Axes, Dragonsfire Grenade, and Murder of Crows, and you can whittle down a melee without ever having to worry about them catching you. (Not to mention the fact their pet is always on you)

Plus, if you spec into Trailblazer, if you ever stop attacking for 3 seconds, you move 30% faster.

There's literally nothing you can do to catch a survival hunter as a melee. They have sooooo many things to slow you down. On top of this, in 7.1.5, they can gain Disengage if they spec into it.

And that's just regular talent calculators. For PvP talent calculator, they have Master's Call, to prevent being snared, and get out of snares if they do get snared), they can get an honor talent to make Feign Death remove all magical effects, a ranged silence, as well as either a Cyclone or a Root.

Survival is bar none the most insane PvP melee spec when it comes to keeping something at a distance. However, they are TERRIBLE at PvE right now, and this is coming from someone who mains a survival hunter.

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Now, I love survival, but there's a LOT of issues. And no, Survival is NOT a failure. There's just a lot of issues that really need to be fixed. Going through what the OP has:

1. Listing what YOU were hoping for, then stating it's what the community was hoping for? That's not a good thing. Blanket stating is never a good start to a post. They did listen to us to an extent: Marksmanship. THEIR vision was a petless spec. Player feedback is what brought Lone Wolf back as optional.

To be honest, a melee hunter has been requested quite a bit in the community, for anyone who has been paying attention, ever since they were removed. (And yes, they were once around) Survival was brought back to its roots. Yes. They removed the survival that some people had grown to love, but the ORIGINAL SURVIVAL was melee.

Should they have knee jerk removed the survival people have grown to love? No. But they did. They also removed the marksman people grew to love as well. It's no where near the same marksman that people loved. Same with BM. Same with pretty much any spec in the game. The game evolved with legion, and classes/specs were re-invented. We need to accept that and move on.

2. This is something that really bothers me. Blizzard once said that if Versatility is a spec's best stat, then they've failed at balancing, and it needs to be fixed. Yet almost 2 major tuning patches later, and versatility is still survival's main stat. Why is this not fixed yet?

3. I actually agree -to an extent- with this. Where DID our poisons go? Survival was about both traps AND poisons prior to this. Yet the only poison we have is Serpent Spread, IF we spec into it. And why don't we have more acrobatic-ish attacks? Warriors spin around more than we do. :/

4. Survival suffers massively from "Mandatory talents in EVERY row" and 7.1.5 makes that worse. They removed some talents to try to fix it, but by doing that, they just made different talents mandatory. And as people even in beta stated, the artifact ability just feels clunky. It never feels like it fits in the rotation at all. It feels like it should be removed altogether and replaced.

I actually love survival's rotation though. It feels nice, for the first time in 12 years, to have an actual rotation. It's why I like playing survival.

5&6: Not much to say: You said it all. To add on to 6: For a hunter that's about SURVIVING: Why do the other 2 specs have SO MUCH MORE SURVIVABILITY THAN SURVIVAL? For instance, everytime marksman kills an enemy, they lose 30 seconds on the remaining cooldown of Exhilaration BASELINE. Survival? We have to spec INTO OUR ARTIFACT, and after 3 points, we only lose 15 seconds per kill. What. Not to mention MM and BM restore health when they use Aspect of the Turtle via Artifact skill. Survival? Nope.

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And to add on: For a spec that's balanced around "Build up Mongoose Bite stacks, unleash all at once." they have so many counter-productive talents like Way of the Mok'nathal and such that are so... counter intuitive to it. They don't work at all with it. Not to mention our legendaries, like the legendary belt, which works the FIRST time you Harpoon an enemy to give a damage bonus for a short while, meaning you lose dps no matter when you do it. Either when you're first building mongoose fury at the start of a fight (meaning you don't get the damage bonus when you have a high stack of mongoose fury) or when you have to travel away from an enemy to harpoon them, at which point you've lost precious time to mongoose bite while at high mongoose fury to do it. Either way, you lose dps. It's actually a dps loss to use the legendary belt over a different legendary.

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And the WORST 7.1.5 SURVIVAL CHANGE OF ALL:

Explosive Trap now has a targeting circle. Because you know, just what EVERYONE wants in their MAIN ROTATION: to have to target the ground every 30 !@#$%^- seconds. And no, an @player macro doesn't work. I've tried on the PTR. It doesn't deploy the trap close enough to the mob.

And for the record, Explosive Trap received a massive nerf in 7.1.5. We lost Improved Traps, so Explosive Trap CD is now stuck at 30 seconds instead of 15 seconds. So although the new talent improved damage by 50%, it still results in a 50% nerf to Explosive Trap. They didn't compensate for it. Considering it's usually our #2-3 skill, that's a significant nerf. So, they pretty largely nerfed the weakest spec in the game. Hoo Rah. Get ready to be even further down the list of "Don't touch with a 50 foot pole" for raids.
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Honestly, the thing I liked so much about Survival Hunter pre Legion was that it was so mobile. You never had to stop and cast so you were a great candidate for handling high mobility mechanics without dps loss.

It was so much fun being ranged and always on the move. I miss it.
New SV style made me finally main switch from my warrior of 12 years to Hunter.

It's honestly the most fun I've ever had in this game.

edit: it would be nice if they kinda smoothed out the gameplay a tad, but pretty much every single class has that problem right now, amirite?
I have tried to level about 8 different hunters since I started playing. Always converting back to a different class because it just never really felt fun to me.

Now i boosted this guy and started out MM, !@#$ me is that boring, heard BM is worse, tried survival, although I'm not stellar or geared or even that far into the expansion I'm having a blast, doing what most people give as advice and "play what you enjoy"

It's a little buggy when harpooning, but I've played worse (age of Conan for 5 years) but it's better than a 3-4 button rotation that relies on marking target procs. Plus I can pve waaaay better in survival than I was in MM.

Just my two cents, it's a blast
Solid post.

Hopefully next expac, they bring bad old Survival and move melee Hunter to its own fourth spec.
I know there are those who enjoy the new melee spec, which is great....however it would have been nice had they created a 4th spec for hunters rather than get rid of the survival ranged spec that many enjoyed for a number of expansions.

After seeing what happened to both Beast Mastery and Marksman, it's a sad comparison to what they used to be and the only option left is melee Survival; none of the ranged specs are fun for me.

Keeping Survival as a ranged spec and creating a 4th spec for a melee hunter (maybe call the spec Tracker or Ranger, I don't know) would have made the class much better for this expansion. People get to play the spec they want without losing it.
01/03/2017 10:01 AMPosted by Idenn
Solid post.

Hopefully next expac, they bring bad old Survival and move melee Hunter to its own fourth spec.


I honestly hope not.

They could have EASILY made MoP/WoD survival created with talents in Marksman. Instead of lone wolf, take a talent that allows you to cast while moving, make black arrow and explosive shot not suck.

It's easy to implement, they just didn't do it.
What are you talking about, I like survival hunter gameplay. Just because that spec isn't for you, doesn't mean it failed.
Ironically as the OP complains I have completed all of my keystones and timewalked last week as survival.

Loving the spec a lot. Going to try mythic raids with it too.
SV currently feels like a crappy Arms Warrior with a pet... Which is why I dusted off my warrior this expansion.

Giving it a try, but not really enjoying it all that much.

Your mileage may vary.

Cheers!
01/03/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Zenobia
New SV style made me finally main switch from my warrior of 12 years to Hunter.


and ironically, the SV change on top of the other hunter changes made me stop playing my hunter main of 10 yrs.
SV was perfect in Warlords of Draenor, was my first time in Warcraft history (since Cata), that I really enjoyed playing Survival and found it to be one of the best hunter specs, at least for my main activities, wpvp, while I swapped to Marksman for Raiding.

In addition, it was the most unique of the 3 hunter specs. A dot based spec that relied on multiple damage over time attacks to wear down an enemy, while the others were more about instant/cast damage or pet damage.

Now SV is a joke, weakest spec, most useless, and not to mention, the most bland and least unique... I think Blizzard made the mistake of not intentionally making Survival the more powerful of the 3 hunter specs so then at least people will give it a try and use it, and maybe love it... then slowly overtime with each patch/hotfix, nerf them back to the levels of the others..

Kinda similar to new classes added to the game, DKs were OP when added for the first month or two, Monks were OP when added for the first month or two, Demon Hunters were OP for a bit, etc.
01/02/2017 10:32 PMPosted by Kynaria
Exactly. Another reason i dislike this new "melee hunter". Ironically, they removed a specialization with the crappy excuse of not having a theme and put this nonsensical aberration in its place. If you fight by throwing grenades at your own feet, you are a suicidal, not a survivalist.


They should rename the spec from Survival to Junkrat.
01/03/2017 11:52 AMPosted by Yura
01/03/2017 09:31 AMPosted by Zenobia
New SV style made me finally main switch from my warrior of 12 years to Hunter.


and ironically, the SV change on top of the other hunter changes made me stop playing my hunter main of 10 yrs.


So funny, because my experience was the opposite. I put SV on hold and leveled my warrior because of the changes to SV. I have maybe 40 hours on my warrior this expansion and maybe 4 hours on this guy. (Who used to be my main.)

Big change with Legion is that I no longer have an attachment to any character really.

My only goal this expansion is to fish all of the new stuff out of the Dalaran fountain. Doesn't matter which class I use for fishing, because they all fish equally well! <<< See, if you look hard enough, there is a silver lining in every cloud!
melee hunter is the worst decision they have ever made with the class. hands down. we had a well designed ranged class, now we have a muddied up hybrid. it's that simple. even if they could make melee hunters better, they shouldn't. it was the only ranged physical/non-caster in the game, put it back.

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