Emergency: Arena Participation

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@Felbuster: Almost all accurate, I'd say. Disagree in part with 6, 7, a bit but that's just me and how I'd word it.

12/28/2016 06:23 PMPosted by Felbuster
1. Unchecked cheating from last expansion brought a sour taste into this one.


I've already explained my reasons a bit, but this is another one of them. Last expansion in WoD, I played Disc/Holy Priest, Frost Mage, Restoration/Elemental Shaman and Restoration Druid as seriously as I could in WoD after MoP (which ended up being around 1725 in WoD).

Notice one key thing with all of those? Casters. On my climb with friends, one thing was consistent across a freakishly large amount of teams - Kickbots.

On my Mage/Druid/Priest, I was consistently getting kicked at literally the start of a cast - within 0.3 seconds - or right as the cast was over - 0.2~ish seconds.

You can brush some of those off as blind luck, very quick reaction times, etc..., sure, but not literally every single one of those people across hundreds of games had lightning fast reactions or were getting lucky to just so happen to interrupt me in the final few miliseconds of a cast or lucking out to randomly hit their interrupt and have it hit me on a key spell literally in the second I start casting. (i.e: Flash of Light, Regrowth, Wild Growth, Lava Burst, etc.).
I'd expect reaction times like that from R1 gladiators like Hansol, Venruki, Snutz, etc. I would NOT expect it from multitudes of 1500 players in the slightest.

There were literally people (mainly Warlocks with GoSac "exploiting"(unknown if this was truly an exploit as it was never fixed from MoP-WoD)) streaming them using kickbots or scripts, they were reported and nothing was done about them.

Cheaters, pilots and boosters were never punished and others were - and are - openly advertising such services on their stream UIs blatantly without fear. Why is this even being allowed if titles/elite gear are meant to be the "prestigious" thing about PvP/Arena? They're meant to be EARNED, not bought.

People being able to simply toss money at someone to carry them to titles/rewards that I tried my damned best to obtain legitimately through trial and error, through my own effort just kills the sense of accomplishment for those rewards and my drive to put any effort in at all. Especially with how titles were handled this season.

I'd expand on the other points, but others can probably do that better, and that's enough of a wall of text for me for one night.
I will be only speaking things from a healers pov.

Right now, playing healer is a very stressful experience in 3s.

In bgs, theres so much things goin on that more or less im not gonna end up being a target unless ofc the enemy teams are good.

Let me tell you why it is stressful

. Mistakes feels so punishing, if i get locked out of my cast, either me or my partner will die.

Let me tell you why it isnt fun:

. People will sometimes die through spamhealin and it feels that my role doesnt make any significant impact and is just there to delay the inevitable

Let me tell you why i cbf to just que:

. What is there lying in wait for people like me? 0 rewards except for the 100 win mounts which i could easily get from rbgs.

Please take into consideration that i am just your average player who logs to wow after a tiring 8 to 5 job and could only make do with whatever partner i could find in lfg.

Just my 2c.
Wow, 549 comments. Thanks guys.

I'll be editing the top post shortly!
People don't play Arena because it requires personal responsibility; you can be held accountable for your actions. This is not true in BG's because there are a high number of players to hide your faults behind. Pair that in to the coddling of players to have to avoid personal responsibility in all the content leading up to end game/arenas, and you have a result where people do not want to participate in content where they may have to actually do something right.
The loss of PVP'ers in arena has nothing to do with attitude. If this was truly the case mobas would be dead. Have you been to the LOL forums? The problem is the game right now is not friendly to arenas.

I have a buddy, GK, who loves to PVP and hates to PVE. The minute it dawned on him that he had to do an amazing PVE grind just to gear up he left and is playing other things.

Another friend left because he wanted to play a viable pvp tank. This fellow left prior to Legion hitting. After many xpacs of tanks being fairly useless he quit. he rejoined recently, realized the grind ahead of him and quit again.

My son quit for the same reason....tanks not being viable. Now that overwatch is out he will not touch wow pvp with a ten foot pole.

My fiance does not want to arena because she does not want to have to script, download addons and learn how to mouse turn and learn 20 keybinds. I actually do not blame her. I myself have a hard time with it. I use my hands for a living and after 6-10 hours they do not want to do what i want them to do.

All of this translates into the same thing....a dev issue. The devs do not understand why people are leaving. They do not understand what people expect. They do not get balance. They do not understand that there is a play disparity between a keyboard turner and a mouse turner. The giant issues in gameplay rests solely on the heads of WOW devs.

2 things need to happen. Blizz either hires a crack team to figure it out or just drop PVP all together.
12/28/2016 05:47 PMPosted by Subìe
12/28/2016 03:31 PMPosted by Jadall
If you only want casuals there so you and your more skilled friends can easily achieve duelist, that's exactly the sort of !@#$ty attitude we're trying to avoid.
we want more people so we actually have people to queue with, you assume because of one dude's post that's what we all believe and that's very narrow minded. We need people to play so we can have teams to play with and teams to queue into. Please stop looking for a reason to debunk the thread whenever we're truly just seeking awareness.


Sorry, my man. That post had plenty of upvotes before it got linked here. The OP of this very post was directly beneath it and didn't say anything about it, and insteaf chose to insist that the PvP community is only rude to those who deserve it.

It's true that the same behaviour exists in PvE but in my experience you see far less pushback against it in PvP.

And it's not derailing, ftr. You deciding it's a nonissue doesn't somehow absolve it's relevance to the question asked in OP.
12/28/2016 06:47 PMPosted by Gnomedeezy
People don't play Arena because it requires personal responsibility; you can be held accountable for your actions. This is not true in BG's because there are a high number of players to hide your faults behind. Pair that in to the coddling of players to have to avoid personal responsibility in all the content leading up to end game/arenas, and you have a result where people do not want to participate in content where they may have to actually do something right.


This is the exact kind of thinking which has alienated everyone except the hardest-core pvpers.
12/28/2016 06:49 PMPosted by Sickening

My son quit for the same reason....tanks not being viable. Now that overwatch is out he will not touch wow pvp with a ten foot pole.


They tried to make tanks viable in PvP, but they gave up for some silly reason.
A lot of people say that when tanks are having fun in PvP - the people they are going up against aren't. Which is true when tanks aren't somewhat properly balanced.

Going up against a Prot Paladin as a caster or healer for example is the antithesis of fun. You are constantly getting silenced/interrupted by their Avenger's Shield and they bring a ridiculous amount of self healing through Hand/Light of the Protector - 47% of max health iirc, which may be cut in half in PvP.

That could all be fixed by simply making it so that Avenger's Shield procs do not silence or interrupt in PvP combat, simple fix. But Blizzard just seemingly couldn't be arsed to try and fix it, so they just left it.
Similar to Sword and Board (Gladiator Stance) Prot Warrior in WoD, which a large amount of players had been wanting for years - yet rather than do anything, they just removed it.

Some tanks are also just way too tanky, while also bringing the a lot of the DPS that a DPS can, while also bringing an amount of healing comparable to a healer at times.
See: Blood DK, Prot Paladin.

In MoP, double Blood DK was pretty strong early on and then subsequently got nerfed from memory, hence why you didn't see anywhere near that much in say S15, but it was a thing. A lot of people made videos on it; whether they were playing against or as a Blood DK - Bajheera made one, as a notable example and I'd say he knows his class (Warrior) fairly damn well and he was having trouble beating double Blood DK because of the healing and damage that they could bring.

Imagine going against that at low ratings where you're trying to learn when they have a healer backing them up and are viable, while also having Strangulate, Asphyxiate, double Death Grip, Death Chain, etc.
It feels frustrating to play against, but can feel fun to play AS. They'd have to really try hard to balance tanks so that they had a bit more survivability and somewhat comparable (see: not more than a DPS) dps, but weren't absolutely ludicrous like Guardian Druid in MoP for RBGs, Blood DK in early MoP/Cataclysm, etc.

...Sorry for the wall of text again, but that just got me thinking. Apologies!
12/28/2016 06:55 PMPosted by Jadall
Sorry, my man. That post had plenty of upvotes before it got linked here. The OP of this very post was directly beneath it and didn't say anything about it, and insteaf chose to insist that the PvP community is only rude to those who deserve it.

It's true that the same behaviour exists in PvE but in my experience you see far less pushback against it in PvP.

And it's not derailing, ftr. You deciding it's a nonissue doesn't somehow absolve it's relevance to the question asked in OP.


See my previous posts about this "issue." You are doing nothing but fabricating something that draws attention and creates drama between two imaginary "communities."

There is no want of "fodder" or people to prop up ranks. We just want to play the game for crying out loud. Instead people like you see the need to derail threads into endless debates about "toxic communities."
12/28/2016 07:12 PMPosted by Leviholyswag
12/28/2016 06:55 PMPosted by Jadall
Sorry, my man. That post had plenty of upvotes before it got linked here. The OP of this very post was directly beneath it and didn't say anything about it, and insteaf chose to insist that the PvP community is only rude to those who deserve it.

It's true that the same behaviour exists in PvE but in my experience you see far less pushback against it in PvP.

And it's not derailing, ftr. You deciding it's a nonissue doesn't somehow absolve it's relevance to the question asked in OP.


See my previous posts about this "issue." You are doing nothing but fabricating something that draws attention and creates drama between two imaginary "communities."

There is no want of "fodder" or people to prop up ranks. We just want to play the game for crying out loud. Instead people like you see the need to derail threads into endless debates about "toxic communities."


12/28/2016 07:12 PMPosted by Leviholyswag
12/28/2016 06:55 PMPosted by Jadall
Sorry, my man. That post had plenty of upvotes before it got linked here. The OP of this very post was directly beneath it and didn't say anything about it, and insteaf chose to insist that the PvP community is only rude to those who deserve it.

It's true that the same behaviour exists in PvE but in my experience you see far less pushback against it in PvP.

And it's not derailing, ftr. You deciding it's a nonissue doesn't somehow absolve it's relevance to the question asked in OP.


See my previous posts about this "issue." You are doing nothing but fabricating something that draws attention and creates drama between two imaginary "communities."

There is no want of "fodder" or people to prop up ranks. We just want to play the game for crying out loud. Instead people like you see the need to derail threads into endless debates about "toxic communities."


Agree to disagree.
12/28/2016 07:14 PMPosted by Jadall
Agree to disagree.


There is no such thing. Try again.

Edit: Oh and by all means keep downvoting logically constructed arguments and posts.
12/27/2016 02:20 PMPosted by Divium
Arena Participation will increase when classes are fun to play.


This is it. They gutted several classes toolkits in the name of "Class Fantasy." I don't PVP because of this.

Personally, I don't like that I have different abilities in PVP vs PVE. It makes it unnecessarily confusing when going from PVP to PVE. Pruning and then introducing this aspect is...asinine.
12/28/2016 07:18 PMPosted by Leviholyswag
12/28/2016 07:14 PMPosted by Jadall
Agree to disagree.


There is no such thing. Try again.


So much for not derailing the thread, right? You have yourself a goodnight as I'm peacing out from this thread.

Take care.
12/28/2016 07:19 PMPosted by Dapstulk
This is it. They gutted several classes toolkits in the name of "Class Fantasy." I don't PVP because of this.

Personally, I don't like that I have different abilities in PVP vs PVE. It makes it unnecessarily confusing when going from PVP to PVE. Pruning and then introducing this aspect is...asinine.

I don't mean to call you specifically out here, but back during WoD/Alpha/Beta there was pretty widespread support of the pruning and the whole "class fantasy" thing, particularly here on Gen Disc.

What changed for people?
I'm genuinely curious when and why so many people seem to have changed their minds on it.
12/28/2016 03:18 PMPosted by Gathèl
Others have really pointed out a lot of the more technical problems as to why they think PvP is dying, and I agree with a lot of them, but I'm going to be that guy and point out the problems with the community. This is an excerpt from a thread in the arena forums called "Pro-Active Participation Solution?" which, in all honesty, devolved quickly into the average pvper mentality. However this quote struck out to me as the real reason behind it all.

12/28/2016 01:56 PMPosted by Locovida
I agree, but not entirely. Those who are willing to go to Google aren't really the ones we need to recruit since those players will be the ones learning to be 2k players. The players I'm trying to target with a post like this would be the ones that would refresh the base of the arena pyramid. As it is, we have no low-cr playerbase in the community which is why overall participation seems to be ~50k. The majority of players in arena now are participants that normally occupy the mid-tier (low 2k) to duelist range which is why glad and R1 got pushed to such low numbers % wise.


See this is the problem I'm having with this entire argument on this thread. You have the people coming in to say no really we all want to help, when in reality you don't. You want fodder. You all want the fodder so you don't have to work as hard to get to the highest point of the pyramid. You don't want people to join and fight and get better and be equal with each other and enjoy the PvP aspect. You want people to come in and suck so you can continue doing what you're doing. You don't want to encourage them, you just want them around so you can continue to stomp them into the floor.
I can see how the context is skewed, let me clarify for you:

The biggest issue with arena participation seems to be lack of comprehension of the nuances that make arena difficult in different ways than other content.

By pointing-out that the "base of the pyramid" is lacking, I'm highlighting the fact that people who don't go into Arenas with the initial mindset of becoming a 2k+ player will be dissuaded from continuing after a couple bad LFG groupings and getting globaled by the strongly-tuned DPS in Legion.

Since the players I'm hoping to recruit into the arena game mode are the ones that are just trying to "get a taste for it" are faced with such a punishing meta, they never get a good taste in their mouth and decide to leave arena alone for good. Intrinsically, players that would have improved over time by playing casually, well, those numbers have dwindled to nothing. No new talent is entering the pool. It's getting harder and harder to queue and there are fewer and fewer voices to help gain some serious attention from blizz because people are just walking away.

TL;DR It's not about "fodder." It's about players and diversity. It's about actually getting to play the game mode that we enjoy the most. It's about making arena playable to a point where casuals will play enough to improve through sheer experience, thus creating a more competitive environment.

P.S. We do actually like to help. It's been said many times before but I'll reiterate:

If you come over to the arena forums and ask for help, we'll gladly give you what knowledge we have. If you go read the OP (link below) you'll see that I want to help make people's first steps into arenas less of a "omg, wtf just happened, this blows, I'm not playing that again" to "ya, they said that would happen but I see where I could have [done that thing the forum dudes suggested]. I'll get it in the next queue."

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752558189

While we're at it. Do you guys think you'd be persuaded to give arena more of a chance if you had a 1-shot reference for your first queue session readily available?
Someone was advertising in trade looking for people for Yolo rbg pst ilvl exp (IF any) or to sign up in their lfg thing.. so me and a friend signed up and I put balance druid 885 and holy priest 882... no invite. So I whispered him asking if we would get one and his reply asked for if we had experience. I told him none. (Last RBG I personally did was I think last expat maybe previous but it was Yolo too) his reply nty..so for Yolo u need xp? Want to get xp u need xp? Want to practice... Sry u need xp...

Well sorry.. we don't want you in our raids then either.. want to raid? What's ur xp? None? Well Yolo. No, wait.. no xp to Yolo either apparently.
12/28/2016 06:49 PMPosted by Sickening

My fiance does not want to arena because she does not want to have to script, download addons and learn how to mouse turn and learn 20 keybinds. I actually do not blame her. I myself have a hard time with it. I use my hands for a living and after 6-10 hours they do not want to do what i want them to do.


Don't take this as a jab at you or her, by any means, but rather ..I guess showing that you can do it without said things?, at least until about 2200? which is where a lot of people kinda either plateau or feel fine stopping in terms of pushing rating.

Although, one thing is - I'd say - mandatory: Mouse turning, especially in melee metas where a lot of them will mouse turn / Q&E around you to prevent casts that require a target in-front of you.

In WoD, I played pretty competently with a minimalist UI, where I had the default UI outside of Omnibar(this is more of a "me" thing, I tend to lose track of Interrupts in fast-paced matches, esp when most don't have an animation that's noticeable) and a cast-bar addon to make them more visible and easier to/on my own eyes.
Outside of that, I used no addons and kept track of everything else - like trinkets, cds used (Icy veins, combustion, etc...) with my eyes/ears/memory.

It's also possible to not have to use 20+ keybinds, mainly in the state of most classes right now of having a lot less abilities and thus need for keybinds than before.

You can macro abilities in to have it be easier on your hands if needed, like say:
/cast [target=mouseover, exists] Fear; Fear
What that does is cast it on whoever is your mouseover target, if none exists then it casts it on your current target without need to swap frames from person to person.
You can also set it up like this:
/cast [target=focus, exists] Fear; Fear or
/cast Fear (1st row)
/cast [@focus, mod:shift, exists] Fear
First functions the same as the original, except it's your focus instead of mouseover.
Second will always cast Fear on your current target, but when shift is held down while a focus target exists, it'll cast fear. It's essentially two in one and frees up space for other things.
Shift can be changed for alt/ctrl, whichever is easier on the hands and muscle memory.

If she or you wanted to get into PvP, you could try out those and see if they are a bit easier on the hands, it's easier on my hands even after a day but that's personally.

That's just my take on it and if you guys wanted to try out pvp, if not then that's fine too, it's just my suggestions if you wanted them to make it easier on the hands. :)

The scripting thing however, yeah...that's another story entirely and won't debate that one, as that much is clear from my first post on the page (maybe last page by the time I finish typing this up).
12/27/2016 02:15 PMPosted by Groundit
These numbers indicate that only 50,000 total players played or did arena this season


Because if I wanted to catch cancer PvPing I would play Overwatch.
12/28/2016 07:23 PMPosted by Tyranova
I don't mean to call you specifically out here, but back during WoD/Alpha/Beta there was pretty widespread support of the pruning and the whole "class fantasy" thing, particularly here on Gen Disc.What changed for people?I'm genuinely curious when and why so many people seem to have changed their minds on it.
that's grouping them up like they try to do to us that do arenas, don't stoop to their level it doesn't help our cause at all.
I've mentioned it a few times before so this is a good of a place to say it again. The PvP group finder needs to be upgraded.

Finding partners in LFG for PvP is a horrible experience. It takes forever to get a group, and everyone ask you for your resume, link a unicorn type achv, and need 3 references to get an invite.

For the PvE group finder there is a field for iLvL, but for PvP we need a CR filter.

If someone just has to have a 2200cr or no invite, then let them set that CR as a requirement like PvE groups would set ilvl, but make sure that they have that rating themselves.

Say, I'm 1800, and I want to run with other 1800s. I set the CR filter, and unless you have >= 1800 cr, then you wont see my group. I don't have to ask you for more than that. I know people that queue will be the right CR. No links needed. No toxic cross examine required either.

I'm not a big fan of the MMR system we have. You wait an hour for a group. You win 3 games, get some gains, and then lose one and lose all of your gains, your team disbands, and you are back to another hour long toxic LFG experience.

The fact that your gains get wiped out with one loss is a big reason people bail after a loss. Also the reason why they take every loss so hard. Again, its also why LFG finding is as nasty as it is.

Then there is the MMR momentum and the mis-matched MMR groupings. Like when you win two games and you are going for your third. This is where that MMR momentum will kick in and help you rise up the ladder. But what happens? You get queued with a team 300 MMR higher than you. Like a 1600 RBG getting a 1900-2k RBG team, and there goes your momentum. Yeah, people will tell you that you probably didn't lose any CR, but your MMR progress gets shut down and that's what gets you up the ladder.

The system screws you over. One loss on a close MMR wipes out your gains. Win streaks get sniped cause the system matches you way above your MMR. Groups take a long time to get, first loss usually removes your gains, breaks the group, and puts you back in the LFG for an unknown period of time.

Who has time for that?

Can't you design a better system?

The system needs some QOL changes, and I haven't even gotten to rewards.

What rewards? You spend a couple hours trying to get games with decent folks your level and not get screwed over by the system too bad, and for what?

You can't expect to go through all of this and get a decent reward, then why do it?

This expansion I went to do PvE to gear for PvP, and it turns out that I'm a mythic raider now. I'm not the greatest mythic raider, but I'm in a group doing raids, and getting rewards.

If you had asked me last expansion, the odds of me getting rewards from PvP or from Mythic raids, I would have told you I would have a better shot getting 2k in arenas before I would get in Mythic group.

But that is how it is now, its harder to get groups out of LFG and climb the ladder (for no rewards) than it is for an average melee PvE'r to raid mythic

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