Emergency: Arena Participation

General Discussion
Prev 1 35 36 37 69 Next
I spent a lot of playtime on grinding honor to p8 and then I got the same reward twice, the prestigious pennant which has a 2 pixel difference which i got a prestige 3

the p8 50 mount looks like something youd see in my little pony

plus gameplay is terrible
12/28/2016 07:23 PMPosted by Tyranova
I don't mean to call you specifically out here, but back during WoD/Alpha/Beta there was pretty widespread support of the pruning and the whole "class fantasy" thing, particularly here on Gen Disc.

What changed for people?
I'm genuinely curious when and why so many people seem to have changed their minds on it.

There was no such support, except for the army of trolls that is unleashed to make it appear there is support for things that nobody wants.
From looking at most of these responses it's pretty obvious that most people don't really understand how arenas works at all.
12/27/2016 02:15 PMPosted by Groundit


TL;DR
Arena Participation is at an all time low, Titles distributed last season are completely bugged, please post why you don't q arena, but please leave hyperbole and etc out of it.


I've played my fair share or arena in previous seasons but this season, I didn't get in as much play time with most of it not being a design flaw as much as my life and wow don't gel well together at the moment.

I think what was most challenging this past season, was a number of things.

1. Work Schedule vs Available time to Invest - The new Legion system (AP, Honor Talents) is not as forgiving as it has been in previous expansions for people who have hectic schedules.

2. "Picking the wrong spec" - A lot of R1 and Glad players play the game at high enough level that picking the wrong spec may not hinder them, however, for the rest of the players, its full of disappointment. Hanging on for that next hotfix or maintenance patch hoping for a fix further perpetuate the problems when you've already gone all in on your AP/favorite Spec.

3. Lack of Rewards - In previous expansions, you could live with grinding out currency. You could plan a path, buy a piece of gear and feel the reward of the grind. Not sure players feel that reward in the current system. What are non-glad players working towards?

4. Lack of Alts - Alts added depth to the ladder. More people played, more choices, more combinations, more variations. Pre-Legion, you could play multiple classes and still be competitive even if you're favorite class was not performing well. In Legion, that is possible, but the time investment feel like a barrier to entry. Arena tournaments give people the power to bring various team comps, however that is pretty tough to make happen on Live.

I realize I'm not R1 or Glad, but the game needs guys and gals like me. To keep the brackets full, to keep the ladder competitive, and to ensure that there is enough of a player population to make sure that rewards go deeper in the ladder.

I used to run competitive billiard tournaments. The more people we had in the tournament, the deeper the payout and the more recognition. We tried to payout a quarter of the field every time. 1st and 2nd always got a pretty good paycheck. 3rd and 4th as well. If we paid out 16 spots (64 players), at the very least, 12th-16th got their entry fee back. It's not 1-4 but you were recognized for your ability to beat 75% of the field. On any given Sunday, we all knew, those top 16 could win that tournament.

However, if we made a tournament of those top 16 players, then only the top 4 would get a payout. The other 12 would get no recognition, despite their skill being on par with the top four. This is frustrating for those twelve. A roll here, or a bad coin toss, (in an alternate break format) could end up determining a match. (you know like a DC at the wrong time or a lag spike, wrong map etc). My point, in this analogy is that we needed to ensure we had big fields and to do that, we needed the lower skilled players to want to play as much as the highly skilled. So we had to focus on the lower skilled players experience.

The other part of this problem was the paradigm of the lesser skilled players. The lesser skilled players didn't want to play. They new the R1 and Glads of the area were going to come in and snatch up the tournament. So we had to find a way to balance and improve the experience of the lesser skilled players. We had sidepots for lesser skilled players, were the highest finishing lesser skilled player would win the pot. For example, we gave out free drinks, or people could obtain points to qualify for a special season end tournament that was free entry and had guaranteed payouts based on number of entries.

Ultimately, we wanted people to play and give them an experience because after all, the pool tournament was a pastime that people used for entertainment. Some people can play more, some play less and skill is rewarded but really, my biggest challenge was making the experience rewarding for all of the players. Even those who couldn't win.

And that is the challenge that Blizz faces in WoW Arena on Live. To make the experience enjoyable and worthwhile for everyone.

ps. I tried to be concise, but ended up posting a novel. If you made it this far, beer is on me.
I would like to expand on something several people have mentioned. We've all discussed poor balance and lack of rewards, but a lot of people have said they don't enjoy arenas/PvP because it's confusing.

See, the thing is, there's tons of material to prepare people for raiding. You learn how to interrupt while Questing. You learn not to stand in the fire in Heroics. You learn the importance of positioning in Mythics. The ideas you employ, the skills you need, they're not foreign to you.

But for PvP, there's nothing. It's totally foreign. There's nothing that teaches people how to do arenas. The game never tell you you'll need to bind each of your abilities several times, e.g.
  • /cast Fear
  • /cast [target=focus] Fear
  • /cast [target=arena1] Fear
  • /cast [target=arena2] Fear
  • /cast [target=arena3] Fear
  • /cast [target=mouseover] Fear
What prior content teachers players that?
What prior content teaches players the mechanics of fake casting?
What prior content teachers players surviving is often far more important that damage? That they need to cut damage and spam sheep at certain points in a fight?

Nothing.

The reality is that the game doesn't offer anything that teaches new players how to PvP.

Now, this isn't the main reason why people don't PvP. Believe me, class balance and lack of rewards are a lot worse. But a lack of rewards, a lack of balance, boring classes, and a total lack of systematic tools to even get started... there's just no reason to PvP.
12/29/2016 07:22 PMPosted by Valhader
From looking at most of these responses it's pretty obvious that most people don't really understand how arenas works at all.


Get current flavour of the month "meta" team, healer pillar humps while your dps burn healer, do it faster than other guy?
When I stated ' the rating = skill mentality' I meant the PvP scene is now built upon "2200+ only' or "link achieve or no inv".When at 1850 I was playing at 2k+ mmr and getting 'arena master' and ex glads, and beating them with my non- achievement self. Not saying titles do not mean they lack, but rather what you had with a DK in WOTLK does not mean anything now. I wish I could get a title, but with the inflation and such to ladders I can not foresee myself grinding it by pug. The need for previous achievements will push new people away, and hinders everyone not in the rat league ( i read arena forums daily). The PvP community cannot and will not come together when it's "you have to x to get an invite' or 'git gud, rofl 1500 scum'
I pvp on my warrior since it has a way higher ilvl. Usually able to brute-force my way through teams since it has mythic raid ilvl gear.

I think that gearing in pvp should reward gear more often according to your rank.
12/29/2016 12:32 PMPosted by Groundit
https://mobile.twitter.com/holinka/status/814560719072960512

THERES HOPE

I'm afraid this doesn't change much, and the 149k projected number is also extremely bad.

The hyper-exclusivity needs to stop and things need to be adjusted to reflect the deflation on the ladder and lack of players.

I still have 0 desire to even bother trying for anything but 2k with 200 more glad spots. That's still stupidly low compared to BC/WotLK.
bump
12/30/2016 02:04 AMPosted by Shirt
I'm afraid this doesn't change much, and the 149k projected number is also extremely bad.

It's still pretty bad, but it's hope for those of us who got screwed by changes (the people who would have been above Glad cutoff, but then didn't get it because of eligibility changes). Even some of the people that did get titles, the change was definitely going to drive them away as it meant disgusting amounts of time investment they couldn't commit for stuff like r1.

It doesn't fix the problem of the bottom-middle of the ladder having fallen out, of the lack of reasons to participate for anyone sub-Glad, of the disaster that is class design, and so on.
12/30/2016 02:47 AMPosted by Tyranova
It's still pretty bad, but it's hope for those of us who got screwed by changes (the people who would have been above Glad cutoff, but then didn't get it because of eligibility changes). Even some of the people that did get titles, the change was definitely going to drive them away as it meant disgusting amounts of time investment they couldn't commit for stuff like r1.

It doesn't fix the problem of the bottom-middle of the ladder having fallen out, of the lack of reasons to participate for anyone sub-Glad, of the disaster that is class design, and so on.


Sorry but how did people get screwed by the changes when its a % base on titles, did they never tell people about the changes until the end of season? If you have a percentage % system and there are less players there is going to be less Gladiator spots, are people asking for a new system like starcraft where its top 100 and you have different leagues or something completely new?
http://www.redbull.com/us/en/esports/stories/1331828256493/legion-and-the-renaissance-of-wow-esports
Many of these issues have been around for a while and have not been addressed by the devs.

If shrinking the pool down to 50k or less is what it takes to finally get the attention of the devs, then the low-mid portion of the pool really needs to make an extra effort to NOT queue this season so we can finally get some action.
12/30/2016 03:44 AMPosted by Allvoltage
did they never tell people about the changes until the end of season?

They did not communicate the change to how eligibility for titles was determined until yesterday.

What appears to have happened is:
Every season prior to this, title cutoffs were determined based on all players 1k+, and then from that pool, eligible players were ones who had 50+ wins.

This season, it appears, and is somewhat confirmed now, that the pool is players with 50+ wins only.
That cut ~60% of players 1k+ out.

The change itself isn't bad, and obviously less players in the pool means less titles, but it was in no way communicated that this was a change being made (and honestly, did it really need to happen?).
12/30/2016 04:09 AMPosted by Tyranova
They did not communicate the change to how eligibility for titles was determined until yesterday.

What appears to have happened is:
Every season prior to this, title cutoffs were determined based on all players 1k+, and then from that pool, eligible players were ones who had 50+ wins.

This season, it appears, and is somewhat confirmed now, that the pool is players with 50+ wins only.
That cut ~60% of players 1k+ out.

The change itself isn't bad, and obviously less players in the pool means less titles, but it was in no way communicated that this was a change being made (and honestly, did it really need to happen?).


Ok right i understand, bad communication on their part for that one, thought they did "The Arena Season has started" on the news feed and could have been added in the notes. If that's the case the community may not be as small as its believed to have dropped to.
12/27/2016 02:25 PMPosted by Thanksgivíng
In wow a sense of achievement is important for the player base. In PVE, there are small increments but common, killing the boss you were stuck on, increasing a level of difficulty in a mythic, etc. in pvp there is none especially for entry levels. If 3 people step into an arena new, they will get slaughtered and get insulted. They even get insulted in skirms just for trying it out. There is also no sense of achievement as the good stuff is out of reach for most players. It also has a really negative community where even if you go 20 wins and 10 losses, you can have a negative feeling coming out of a queue session.

Wow needs to make it more rewarding for newbies to try it out and the player base of pvp needs to be more mature

I'm horrible at PvP overall. I can join the big battlegrounds and blend in, helping to hold the towers, or whatever needs doing, etc., but in arenas, I'm going to get destroyed. Not. Fun.

The above post is spot on. New players get nothing constructive to build experiences on these days. They're quite literally thrown to the sharks and many will quit from the negativity they're getting from some segments of the community.

It only takes listening to /say and /general in Goldshire to illustrate what new players are seeing. That's before they even get into BG's or group PvE content. Pretty depressing.

If new players could be guided into truly helpful PvP guilds as soon as they start leveling and those guilds taught the basics of PvP and set an example for good behavior, it'd start creating better communities.

The whole "I got ganked/camped as a newb, so Imma gank/camp newbies too" mentality needs to stop. Maybe you think it weeds out the carebears and bads and toughens up players, but I remember the days of being on a PvE server and being harassed in the starting zones by flagged players trying to trick me to click on them. That didn't make me want to try out PvP. That just made me wary of PvP'ers and avoid PvP content like the plague. It sent the message that PvPers just enjoyed making others leveling experiences bad.

Look at the numbers in the opening post. PvP needs more participation, not less. Think about it logically. If the participation is at an all time low with fewer and fewer new people trying it out, then there's not much reason to continue creating and supporting said content.

Ultimately, I don't know what the solution is. I'm not enjoying several of my alts playstyles this expansion. I'm considering them shelved for anything outside of farming old content or farming Legion mats. Don't care for the changes and I hate feeling so weak and ineffectual, so there is zero way I'd even attempt PvP at this point. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that feeling.
As much as I respect and admire you for trying, I fear I must be the one to tell you that Arena, and WoW PvP in general, is essentially doomed so long as we continue down the path of the "vision" of the current devs.

The reasons are simple:

1: No matter how pretty and breathtaking the graphics and art, no matter how well designed the xpac's quests and quest progression, no matter how well written the story and lore (even though I think Legion lore is bad fanfic-level), people are not going to have fun with the current class mechanics. "Class fantasy" pruned out everything that made many specs fun to play, taking away the complexity and the depth of the classes. And in PvP, having deep, complex classes to both use and have used against you is a HUGE part of what makes PvP enjoyable. This is the main problem for the veterans like me. I wanted to get back into PvP this xpac to earn my Bloodthirsty title (I'm about 2/3 of the way there), but the gameplay mechanics are so bad that I've instead cancelled my sub and will wait for the next xpac to do so...provided that the curent Diablo devs are no longer in charge of the game. If they are, then I fear that it might be the end of my eight year love affair with this game.

2: PvP in general, and Arena specifically, have no rewards to encourage participation outside of a mount. Honor is gone. PvP gear is randomized and usually has horrific itemization that makes it useless for your spec. In Arena, it feels like a slog to gain rating, but you can lose days, even weeks of hard work in a heartbeat with a run of bad luck. Even Marks of Honor are RNG, and those are for xmog. If there's no guarantee of reward, what motivation is there to play?

3: Over the last three years, I have seen the PvP community become incredibly toxic. And I mean toxic to the point where it has poisoned itself with its own venom and is slowly being eaten away from within. Many PvE players who have dipped their toes into PvP quickly learn to see PvP players as incredibly vicious, uncaring, soulless monsters who devote their lives to making yours as miserable as possible, even when YOU ARE ON THE SAME TEAM. Make a mistake? Here comes the 15 minute bile-spewing rage over vent or chat. Lose a match? Get ready to be called 4,302 different names in six different languages and have your partner tell you to kill yourself and delete your soul. Ask a question? Be prepared to be called 137 distinct names for "noob," and get laughed at, mocked, and insulted. For someone new to PvP, this is beyond intimidating and discouraging. And in many cases, it only takes one of these incidents to drive a player away from PvP permanently.

Not all PvP players are like this. But so many are that it brands the good people with their stigma.
Will reflect top post with more stuff later, we should see a blue response in here within a couple days, I think.

Question:
For those that say it's hard to learn, and that skirms/arena are just new guy stomping fields, how would you change that?
Straight up, I don't do arenas anymore because of the RNG reward system. It's terrible and I hate it.

With the pvp templates, you don't really feel the sense of getting stronger (progression on your character) from the gear anymore. That, combined with the fact that I may just never get the gear since the bad luck mechanic doesn't actually work (I just love getting trinkets that don't even work in instanced PVP and rings constantly) just makes me lose interest.

Aside from vanilla, I've only ever played this game casually, almost exclusively pvp'ing with a handful of friends in our own small guild. We've never went hard at it and I think the highest rating we achieved was around 1800.

So there's nothing for us to work towards. Sure, we PVP because it's fun, but there's just nothing to keep us coming back and feel like we're earning something.

Side note: the only reason this pally has this gear is because I farmed the PVP WQ's back at launch when they reset every 3 hours. I've just reactivated my account last week to try out and level my shaman and after hitting 110 I see that they reset every 24 hours. Not impressed. Now I feel like I'll never get his pvp set because of the horrible RNG system.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum