Emergency: Arena Participation

General Discussion
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Question:
For those that say it's hard to learn, and that skirms/arena are just new guy stomping fields, how would you change that?


You can't really change that. That's just the way it is with anything competitive. You have to dedicate time and have an interest in learning the different classes in order to really improve. That usually comes with experience.

The one thing I could suggest though is to include other classes mechanics in the in-game journal. A list of their skills and talents you can go through so you can get better knowledge. Ya, that's available on the Internet but most people can't be bothered to search it. Would be easy and straightforward to just search a class in-game.
12/30/2016 06:11 AMPosted by Groundit
Will reflect top post with more stuff later, we should see a blue response in here within a couple days, I think.

Question:
For those that say it's hard to learn, and that skirms/arena are just new guy stomping fields, how would you change that?


You used to be able to play against people your own skill level at <1500. Now, the combination of LFG and fewer players, means you're less likely to match against someone of equal experience.

Better rewards for winning AND losing might convince people to stick it out long enough to increase participation.

I'm not sure how to improve learning. To be honest, I think people learn more about PVP in battlegrounds, where you can respawn in 30s and have a large net of teammates to help you. Killing off incentive to do BGs hurts pvp everywhere. Bring back honor, make pvp gear usable in pve, give me rewards for losing.

I haven't played League of Legends in a long time but I remember they had an initial period where the first 10 games would determine which bracket you go in. They also had MANY brackets for many skill levels.

In WoW, If you're casual like me, use LFG and do 10 wins a week, you never know who you will be facing. I feel like half my games at 1400 mmr are vs people either brand new to arena or Arena Master titles.
farming low raids seem more fun than arena
I'm not sure how to improve learning. To be honest, I think people learn more about PVP in battlegrounds, where you can respawn in 30s and have a large net of teammates to help you. Killing off incentive to do BGs hurts pvp everywhere. Bring back honor, make pvp gear usable in pve, give me rewards for losing.


I think learning isn't too bad currently. Honor and Talent guides (and when to choose what) is readily available. Unfortunately, everything else is less available, like what makes a good initial target and so forth is less common (probably because it can't be generalized as easily). Some of that comes with experience, I guess.

For healers especially, battlegrounds feel sort of pointless. The enemy team's pressure is usually pretty bad, with interrupts and offensive dispels not being all that common (and when they happen, it's often at random times), and you just have multiple uncoordinated people trying to 1v1 you which is countered by the complete lack of defensive peels.
The last time I played arena was 2s in WotLK (Pret/Disc). We only reached 1800 but I was proud of that considering our group makeup was unheard of at the time.

The way tank balance is now I will never queue. I don't expect tanks to have similar DPS to actual DPS but our damage in PvP is pathetic this expansion.

It can be summed up as, "The spec I enjoy is not remotely viable so I will not queue."
12/30/2016 08:49 AMPosted by Sedrea

The way tank balance is now I will never queue. I don't expect tanks to have similar DPS to actual DPS but our damage in PvP is pathetic this expansion.

It can be summed up as, "The spec I enjoy is not remotely viable so I will not queue."


I think they just haven't thought of a good tank model. I thought swotor's pvp tank model was interesting, particularly the way they handled taunts (the taunted players damage is reduced by 30% except against the person who taunted), and I wouldn't mind seeing something like that in wow, with tanks serving a protection role.

They've tried making tanks more control oriented, but when they tried that, it was mostly via additional cc, which is probably not really going to fly.
12/30/2016 06:11 AMPosted by Groundit
For those that say it's hard to learn, and that skirms/arena are just new guy stomping fields, how would you change that?
It's not just arenas, though. It's PvP generally.

Allow me to illustrate the problem with several anecdotes.
  • One of my friends plays a Shadow Priest. He explained that he'll never PvP because every time he PvPs he dies in seconds (e.g. a rogue kills him before he can even do anything). I later learned he was talking about wPvP. When I informed him PvP templates mitigate this (not active in wPvP), he informed me he had no idea what PvP templates were.
  • In Temple of Kotmogu about a month ago, I saw a mage explain that he had no idea how to do this BG. I realized that none of the BGs tell you how to do them. No where in game does it tell players how to win EoTS. In most other games, the loading screen contains something like, "Victory conditions: capture the enemy base or destroy all enemy vehicles." But in World of Warcraft, you're not told jack !@#$.
  • The PvP templates and modifiers still aren't told to players in the UI itself. You have to download Addons (http://imgur.com/a/5yBDv) to be informed that your spells behave radically differently in PvP.
  • The entire reward system is hidden. We still have to guess how many people are in the ladder. Blizzard won't tell us that, either.
  • Blizzard still hasn't told us how their title cutoffs work.
Basically, the game doesn't tell people anything. The game won't tell you how to win a BG. It won't tell you how your spells change in PvP. It won't tell you how to get arena titles. It won't tell you that if you get 10 more rating this week, you'll get Elite pieces instead of normal pieces. It won't tell you %^-*.

So it is any surprise that people won't PvP? When you enter an arena in legion, the mana cost, cast time, damage, and duration of all your spells will be different from what they are in the world. You're then told to play on a ladder you can't see, to earn RNG rewards that you know of (no PvP adventure guide), with stat templates you can't see/can't change, using new talents/abilities you don't normally have, playing on a team that doesn't exist, to earn two types of ELO (one of which you also can't see), all so you can get !@#$ed in the %^- by hidden changes to title cutoffs at the end of the season.

The vacuum of space contains the same amount of information on PvP/rewards that Blizzard publishes. And by that, of course, I mean none of at all.

How do you fix it? Well, how about actually telling people their hidden PvP modifiers in the UI? How about telling people their precise stat modifiers in Principles of War? How about actually telling the community how title cutoffs work? How about actually telling the PvP community anything?

Blizzard has said time and time again they need to work in improving community discourse. Well. We're waiting. I'm waiting. Holinka can drag his sorry !@# out here anytime and actually tell us what he, and the rest of PvP team, are thinking. Because we sure as hell are getting tired of guessing.
12/30/2016 09:31 AMPosted by Hanazono
Blizzard has said time and time again they need to work in improving community discourse. Well. We're waiting. I'm waiting. Holinka and drag his sorry !@# out here anytime and actually tell us what he, and the rest of PvP team, are thinking. Because we sure as hell are getting tired of guessing


I think this is what kills us the most and makes others think the community around arena is "toxic." This whole not communicating what the plan is going forward in one week, two weeks or a month just makes people disgusted. Because we are stuck looking into a crystal ball attempting to guess what the team is going to do.

Myself for instance spent the first three months of the expansion trying to figure out which priest spec would be best in arena. After waiting for disc changes for a while we actually got nerfed and made more useless in threes. Tried Holy and that was a joke. The point is we wait for changes, we report bugs, we suggest things and we just get ignored. We are just left to play the guessing game for months at a time.
12/30/2016 09:31 AMPosted by Hanazono
12/30/2016 06:11 AMPosted by Groundit
For those that say it's hard to learn, and that skirms/arena are just new guy stomping fields, how would you change that?
It's not just arenas, though. It's PvP generally.

Allow me to illustrate the problem with several anecdotes.
  • One of my friends plays a Shadow Priest. He explained that he'll never PvP because every time he PvPs he dies in seconds (e.g. a rogue kills him before he can even do anything). I later learned he was talking about wPvP. When I informed him PvP templates mitigate this (not active in wPvP), he informed me he had no idea what PvP templates were.
  • In Temple of Kotmogu about a month ago, I saw a mage explain that he had no idea how to do this BG. I realized that none of the BGs tell you how to do them. No where in game does it tell players how to win EoTS. In most other games, the loading screen contains something like, "Victory conditions: capture the enemy base or destroy all enemy vehicles." But in World of Warcraft, you're not told jack !@#$.
  • The PvP templates and modifiers still aren't told to players in the UI itself. You have to download Addons (http://imgur.com/a/5yBDv) to be informed that your spells behave radically differently in PvP.
  • The entire reward system is hidden. We still have to guess how many people are in the ladder. Blizzard won't tell us that, either.
  • Blizzard still hasn't told us how their title cutoffs work.
Basically, the game doesn't tell people anything. The game won't tell you how to win a BG. It won't tell you how your spells change in PvP. It won't tell you how to get arena titles. It won't tell you that if you get 10 more rating this week, you'll get Elite pieces instead of normal pieces. It won't tell you %^-*.

So it is any surprise that people won't PvP? When you enter an arena in legion, the mana cost, cast time, damage, and duration of all your spells will be different from what they are in the world. You're then told to play on a ladder you can't see, to earn RNG rewards that you know of (no PvP adventure guide), with stat templates you can't see/can't change, using new talents/abilities you don't normally have, playing on a team that doesn't exist, to earn two types of ELO (one of which you also can't see), all so you can get !@#$ed in the %^- by hidden changes to title cutoffs at the end of the season.

The vacuum of space contains the same amount of information on PvP/rewards that Blizzard publishes. And by that, of course, I mean none of at all.

How do you fix it? Well, how about actually telling people their hidden PvP modifiers in the UI? How about telling people their precise stat modifiers in Principles of War? How about actually telling the community how title cutoffs work? How about actually telling the PvP community anything?

Blizzard has said time and time again they need to work in improving community discourse. Well. We're waiting. I'm waiting. Holinka can drag his sorry !@# out here anytime and actually tell us what he, and the rest of PvP team, are thinking. Because we sure as hell are getting tired of guessing.


Wow, I've actually never thought of any of those as problems.

I am not saying they aren't, in fact I believe they very well are, I'm just saying I was always doing pvp from the get go and had forgotten about ally that.

Saving this and adding to top post, brilliant post man. Really good.
The logic below is flawed. There could be 5 million people below 1500 "participating". It's top .1% of rating and .5% of rating. You don't get rating based on how many people play, only based on how much you win against another teams rating. I pvp all the time but have never liked the arena system or the rating system. They could wipe it from the game and it would not be missed. It's for try hards and should not be the basis for PvP rewards. The very few people who push high ratings (as your numbers show, very few people) are the only ones who benefit from the system. The WoD system of reward for time played (basically) was a much better system and did not harm anyone.

"Here's why these numbers are scary
Rank 1 is a title given out to players in the top .1% of the ladder
Gladiator is a title given out to players in the top .5%

These numbers indicate that only 50,000 total players played or did arena this season "
It all comes down to 1 thing:

Why would I want to do arenas if I can't eventually end up with the best gear like I did in WoD as a casual noob? If you are going to keep RNG at least make it so everyone of all skill levels are capable of getting the best gear, this is not PvE...
Part of me wonders why a reward structure for pvp is even needed. In other pvp games, progressing through the ranks is its own reward. in wow, it feels like the very best most optimistic we can hope for wow pvp is that lower level players will use arena as a stepping stone to some gear if it's convenient enough.

This suggests that the core gameplay loop just isn't all that fun. Maybe the skill floor (but not skill ceiling!) should be lowered somehow, and make losses -- specifically, the reason you lose a bit easier to determine so you can make incremental improvements to your play.

It's not at all clear to me that better pvp would be enough to be popular content in wow, though. It sort of feels like the mmo audience is so tied to character power progression that a bribe is always going to be necessary and how good the pvp doesn't really matter -- all that matters is how difficult the rewards are to obtain relative to other means of obtaining same/similar rewards.

Regarding community discourse -- a lot of progress was made on this in sc2, and it'd be nice if blizzard could add similar transparency with frequent communication updates, even if it's just a this is what we see, and our take on it sort of update. I feel like that helped a lot in sc2 in lotv (it was quite a bit worse before then).
12/30/2016 09:31 AMPosted by Hanazono
12/30/2016 06:11 AMPosted by Groundit
For those that say it's hard to learn, and that skirms/arena are just new guy stomping fields, how would you change that?
It's not just arenas, though. It's PvP generally.

Allow me to illustrate the problem with several anecdotes.
  • One of my friends plays a Shadow Priest. He explained that he'll never PvP because every time he PvPs he dies in seconds (e.g. a rogue kills him before he can even do anything). I later learned he was talking about wPvP. When I informed him PvP templates mitigate this (not active in wPvP), he informed me he had no idea what PvP templates were.
  • In Temple of Kotmogu about a month ago, I saw a mage explain that he had no idea how to do this BG. I realized that none of the BGs tell you how to do them. No where in game does it tell players how to win EoTS. In most other games, the loading screen contains something like, "Victory conditions: capture the enemy base or destroy all enemy vehicles." But in World of Warcraft, you're not told jack !@#$.
  • The PvP templates and modifiers still aren't told to players in the UI itself. You have to download Addons (http://imgur.com/a/5yBDv) to be informed that your spells behave radically differently in PvP.
  • The entire reward system is hidden. We still have to guess how many people are in the ladder. Blizzard won't tell us that, either.
  • Blizzard still hasn't told us how their title cutoffs work.
Basically, the game doesn't tell people anything. The game won't tell you how to win a BG. It won't tell you how your spells change in PvP. It won't tell you how to get arena titles. It won't tell you that if you get 10 more rating this week, you'll get Elite pieces instead of normal pieces. It won't tell you %^-*.

So it is any surprise that people won't PvP? When you enter an arena in legion, the mana cost, cast time, damage, and duration of all your spells will be different from what they are in the world. You're then told to play on a ladder you can't see, to earn RNG rewards that you know of (no PvP adventure guide), with stat templates you can't see/can't change, using new talents/abilities you don't normally have, playing on a team that doesn't exist, to earn two types of ELO (one of which you also can't see), all so you can get !@#$ed in the %^- by hidden changes to title cutoffs at the end of the season.

The vacuum of space contains the same amount of information on PvP/rewards that Blizzard publishes. And by that, of course, I mean none of at all.

How do you fix it? Well, how about actually telling people their hidden PvP modifiers in the UI? How about telling people their precise stat modifiers in Principles of War? How about actually telling the community how title cutoffs work? How about actually telling the PvP community anything?

Blizzard has said time and time again they need to work in improving community discourse. Well. We're waiting. I'm waiting. Holinka can drag his sorry !@# out here anytime and actually tell us what he, and the rest of PvP team, are thinking. Because we sure as hell are getting tired of guessing.


Well said!!

Someone please show this to Holinka on twitter????
1: Classes are boring and bland.
2: Balance is terrible.
3: RNG
Never found it to be fun & don't think I'm particularly good at it. I've quit pvping all together. Ashran and then doing away with PvP specific gear were the final nails in the coffin for me.
In Vanilla and most of BC PvP WAS part of the game. Unless you rolled on a carebear server, it was unavoidable. I know on my first server Warsong back when there was half a dozen servers, it took weeks to level from 20-40, because TM and arathi were such hot spots. (that yeti cave). You had to go to dungeons and places around the map. Everyone learned to PvP by the time they dinged 60. WPvP was prevalent because servers were tight, everyone knew who was who, and you could make a name for yourself without being a BG hero. They have removed the single player aspect of pvp reputation. It's now a forced team based pvp game, if you don't have good team or any team for arenas/RBG's it is pointless. Now I do not want Vanilla to comeback, though seduce, fear,dot, and watch them die before getting back to me was fun it was a 2 shot (1shot if Esham) pvp world. I just think if they took strides to make PvP more integrated rather than a "mini game' it would do a lot of good. I think after writing this now, that the reason it's dead is because the WoW community IS dead. No pride in servers or guilds, no server events like Silithus, no rivalries. Just login give me my welfare epics, and dip.
pvp is beyond ddead. pve is the only viable content left.
12/30/2016 06:55 AMPosted by Hyatch
Question:
For those that say it's hard to learn, and that skirms/arena are just new guy stomping fields, how would you change that?


You can't really change that. That's just the way it is with anything competitive. You have to dedicate time and have an interest in learning the different classes in order to really improve. That usually comes with experience.


You can, actually.
New players and low MMR players should be facing players of their relative skill level.

There is absolutely no reason for these players to be doing arena with and against each other because there is no incentive - and with no incentive when they try there is pretty much nobody of their caliber to play against.

A revamp to make the arena rewards system far more friendly to low MMR and beginners would help a lot. Granted, it may be too late as I was pointing out this was needed in MoP.
12/30/2016 02:09 PMPosted by Mescyn
Part of me wonders why a reward structure for pvp is even needed. In other pvp games, progressing through the ranks is its own reward. in wow, it feels like the very best most optimistic we can hope for wow pvp is that lower level players will use arena as a stepping stone to some gear if it's convenient enough

In most PvP games actually you do get a "trophy" of some kind for progressing.
LoL gives out skins, portraits and what not from what I know - HoTS gives out portraits and mounts and stuff. Overwatch has portraits and gold weapons.

The thing is;
It's far easier to obtain a lot of these trophies than it is to obtain them in this game - an MMORPG which is designed around character progression and collection.

If people cannot legitimately have a hope of obtaining stuff that's usually reasonable to obtain elsewhere in the game - why bother?

PvE evolved with the playerbase.


Mounts drop to 1% after a tier is over so players can still attempt to obtain them - Gladiator mounts go to .5% of the playerbase and then they're gone forever,(a physical number which slowly decreases over time to the point we're at now) and mounts are /the/ biggest motivator for a lot of people to do stuff.

The transmog set is much more reasonable at 2k - but mythic sets aren't removed from the game. This is more akin to the Ahead of the Curve mounts being removed.

2400 enchants were amazing since they were always there and when you hit that number you got it - and then they removed it for no reason with no warning.
They also jacked it up from 2200 - making it even harder to obtain and less motivating. I just rolled my eyes when that happened because they had two seperate appearances on 2400...when one could have stayed 2200 with the new purple enchant being 2400.

Entire system needs a revamp.
We're stuck in a 2007 mentality when it's 2016 - and it's obvious it's caused damage. The game's had balancing issues in the past, but people were still playing - so it's only half the story.

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