Kicked from dungeon again!

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12/22/2016 07:42 AMPosted by Berith
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Why would Blizzard give Balance druids a skill that lets them summon 3 trees that taunt?

They freaking changed Army of the Dead on DK's because people hated that the ghouls taunted.


You mean back when VENGEANCE was a thing for tanks ?

Yeah, we've moved on since then.


Ghouls taunted in wrath before Vengeance was around. In fact they even taunted in WoD and Vengeance was removed then.

What are you getting at?
While I've seen about a dozen good explanations that have been waved away I guess I'll try too.

Tank Resource Management: Most tanks need to be building/maintaining resource to be efficient.

DPS - Again inefficient for AoE or Melee classes to be chasing mobs. For the same reason it is not ideal to split DPS 99% of the time.

Finally - What tank wants to have to micro manage mobs getting ripped off them, and trying to figure out if they ineffectively gathered mobs or a DPS ripped off them.

TL;DR - Your trashcan ability is not worth the headache. Just like you getting kicked. I don't know about you but I see a way to prevent both of those occurrences.

PS - as for dks AoD, it was just as taboo to pop it on trash (why the hell you would I don't know) and bosses were immune to its taunt if I remember correctly. Pretty sure their active time in all situations was shorter anyways.
12/22/2016 12:56 AMPosted by Rjoey
Just got kicked from dungeon for using the spell "force of nature". I was doing highest dps aswell and we were at last boss... blizzard really needs to add some sort of flagging for malicious pug kicking because it happens all too often, the amount of ridiculous/unfair kick votes that pop up is astounding

The only way you were doing top dps at an ilvl of 819 was if you were doing a normal dungeon.

The solution is clear. Stop doing normal dungeons.
12/22/2016 08:02 AMPosted by Dkfusion
PS - as for dks AoD, it was just as taboo to pop it on trash (why the hell you would I don't know) and bosses were immune to its taunt if I remember correctly. Pretty sure their active time in all situations was shorter anyways.


Only things that had ?? as a level were immune to ghoul taunt. It worked on anything else.
OP, since you seem like you literally don't understand, I'm gonna assume you're new. Taunting off the tank can cause many issues as listed here already. It's also very annoying for tanks. My partner is a tank and when someone taunts off him it annoys him a lot. I'd take a different talent or just not use it. You usually do that if you're getting repeatedly kicked for something. You coming to GD will not change how tanks act towards you and to be honest, as a healer, I'd agree with the tank for kicking you. Because you've essentially made my job harder as well.
12/22/2016 08:02 AMPosted by Dkfusion
PS - as for dks AoD, it was just as taboo to pop it on trash (why the hell you would I don't know) and bosses were immune to its taunt if I remember correctly. Pretty sure their active time in all situations was shorter anyways.


Depends on the boss. 5 man bosses not so much so a constantly spinning boss was a thing.

Regardless of a tanks resource management either current or through the years, they still build threat. Even if a DPS full out taunts it will still return to the tank after the duration of the taunt because of the changes to threat. If a tank is doing it's job that is.

Are cd's with some type of taunt annoying? Yes, especially for positioning if I need to do that.

Would I kick someone for it? No.

12/22/2016 08:02 AMPosted by Dkfusion
Finally - What tank wants to have to micro manage mobs getting ripped off them, and trying to figure out if they ineffectively gathered mobs or a DPS ripped off them.


The treants are usually obvious. Annoying at times, but obvious.
12/22/2016 12:56 AMPosted by Rjoey
Just got kicked from dungeon for using the spell "force of nature". I was doing highest dps aswell and we were at last boss... blizzard really needs to add some sort of flagging for malicious pug kicking because it happens all too often, the amount of ridiculous/unfair kick votes that pop up is astounding


Force of Nature is a DPS loss when taken over Starlord.

Thus, you are just trolling people in dungeons.
12/22/2016 08:17 AMPosted by Illaandra
12/22/2016 12:56 AMPosted by Rjoey
Just got kicked from dungeon for using the spell "force of nature". I was doing highest dps aswell and we were at last boss... blizzard really needs to add some sort of flagging for malicious pug kicking because it happens all too often, the amount of ridiculous/unfair kick votes that pop up is astounding


Force of Nature is a DPS loss when taken over Starlord.

Thus, you are just trolling people in dungeons.


Exactly. Plus OP did something once, got kicked, apparently didn't learn anything, did it again, once again nothing in the brain happened, so cried on the forums....
Try it with a real tank. The mob will go back to the tank.
Not if he's lower on the threat list than another person.

12/22/2016 07:08 AMPosted by Berith
Discussing Tanking and threat with GD is always such cancer. Damn.
If you were actually discussing it rather than expecting others to instantly accept what you say as fact you might have a point.
12/22/2016 01:02 AMPosted by Daberath
it can be a god send in high M+ during necrotic affix week.


Only if the tank is bad
12/22/2016 08:25 AMPosted by Blackgoddess
Not if he's lower on the threat list than another person.


Then your tank is either

1) Fail
2) your group is off attacking stuff s/he isn't.

There aren't other reasons. Tanking threat is baked in and huge. If the tank is wailing on a mob's face, even a taunt will only strip the mob for the duration of the taunt. The mob will automatically go back to the tank.

12/22/2016 08:25 AMPosted by Blackgoddess
If you were actually discussing it rather than expecting others to instantly accept what you say as fact you might have a point.


Says the person who doesn't understand how threat works now, what threat tables are, or how threat is treated by mobs.
12/22/2016 01:09 AMPosted by Velesta
I don't understand tanks that rage over AI things taunting of them, whatever you take less damage and let the ai pixels die...why are you *that* mad?

I'd love it if you can summon treants that heals for me.


It only becomes a problem if positioning and the boss\mobs MUST be turned. Some mobs and Bosses to frontal AOE damage that can cause all kinds of issues. As a whole it depends on the tank but there are legitimate reasons for tanks to become upset.

edit: spelling.
12/22/2016 07:53 AMPosted by Gambanteinn
MoS - the mobs that use Defiant Strike


Not related to tank positionning, walks in a random direction, as a tank you shouldn't be in that.

12/22/2016 07:53 AMPosted by Gambanteinn
HoV - the mobs going to Hyrja that use Mortal Hew, the Sentinels do a frontal line lightning attack, penetrating shot is a frontal line


Mortal Hew is dodgeable by the tank, the mobs don't move. The sentinels DO NOT use a frontal line ligthning attack. Penetrating shot is a line, but the mob doesn't "turn" while doing it, you need to step out as a tank.

12/22/2016 07:53 AMPosted by Gambanteinn
EoA - one of the two hydra's Lightning attacks goes only to the front, the crabs that do the frontal cone sand ability, is the slime ability frontal or AoE?


The Hydra's lightning attack goes everywhere. Has no bearing on the tank. The crabs stand there while doing the frontal cone, no bearing on tank positionning (you need to move out of that). The Slime doesn't move when doing the frontal ability, so again, no bearing on tank position.

I'm going to stop here. There's a theme going on : You have no idea what a frontal cleave is. Most of the abilities you list are channeled and the mob doesn't change positions, so pet taunts wouldn't destroy anyone. Even as a tank, you need to move out of those abilities which are highly telegraphed.

AKA : Stop blaming the pets taunting.

12/22/2016 08:02 AMPosted by Seraca
Ghouls taunted in wrath before Vengeance was around. In fact they even taunted in WoD and Vengeance was removed then.

What are you getting at?


That tanks don't need to be hit anymore. In fact, as a tank, you should welcome not being hit.
12/22/2016 08:25 AMPosted by Blackgoddess
Try it with a real tank. The mob will go back to the tank.
Not if he's lower on the threat list than another person.

12/22/2016 07:08 AMPosted by Berith
Discussing Tanking and threat with GD is always such cancer. Damn.
If you were actually discussing it rather than expecting others to instantly accept what you say as fact you might have a point.


There is no discussion to be had.

Threat is a value. Threat is modified by damage and healing done.

Tanks literally generate so much more threat than everybody else that if you're pulling off the tank, one of these things is happening-

-You're being a dolt and intentionally pulling from the tank.

-The tank is so bad that they cannot keep threat, OR you hit the target too fast.
12/22/2016 08:25 AMPosted by Blackgoddess
If you were actually discussing it rather than expecting others to instantly accept what you say as fact you might have a point.


There's not much to discuss. Threat tables and the rules establishing threat haven't changed since the earliest times of the game.

1. The Mob will attack the person with the highest threat on their personal table unless the mob has an ability that ignores the threat Table
2. A Mob, IF ROOTED, will attack the NEAREST person with the highest threat until it is able to move
3. Disorients (Blind, gouge) temporarily remove you from the threat able until you tap the mob again. You're given full threat in return after the initial strike.
4. Taunt puts you at the top of the Threat Table. If Taunt ends with you as the highest threat the mob will continue to target you, if taunt ends and you're not the highest threat it will target the highest threat.
5. You can temporarily remove yourself from Threat Tables through abilities that drop combat but will reestablish yourself at the full amount of threat when you re-initiate combat.

Ways to get added to the threat table:
1. Being within' a mobs aggro range
2. Tapping a mob with a harmful abilitiy
3. Healing a player character or NPC attacking a mob
4. Getting Hit by a mob ability.

Am I missing any others?
12/22/2016 07:11 AMPosted by Berith
12/22/2016 07:04 AMPosted by Wîllow
I can understand the arguments both for and against the trees...but can we at least agree on how taunt/threat works since it hasn't changed in function since vanilla, lol?

Yes, this applies to pet taunt/threat as well.

Taunts do not wipe aggro nor do pet taunts/ aggro transfer to their owners. Vanilla WoW stuff here guys.


Apparently, we can't. Because actual tank mechanics is triggering to anyone on General Discussion.

Knowledge and facts aren't welcome here.


It's because of your patronizing and factless argumentive tone, in addition to you insulting anyone who disagrees with you. Is probably the reason people have little interest in what you have to say.
12/22/2016 08:50 AMPosted by Cranekickpls
It's because of your patronizing and factless argumentive tone, in addition to you insulting anyone who disagrees with you. Is probably the reason people have little interest in what you have to say.


I stated facts. Facts you guys still don't want to accept.

"Taunt wipes tank threat!" No it does not. That's a fact. When you don't accept it, I'll mock you for denying reality.

And the more you combat me, and the more you try to oppose me, based simply on my tone, and position yourself against the facts to do it, the more I'll mock you, the more you'll hate my tone.

Up to you. I don't respond to tone policing. I also don't accept irrationality and feelings used as arguments.

12/22/2016 08:42 AMPosted by Mathalt
4. Taunt puts you at the top of the Threat Table. If Taunt ends with you as the highest threat the mob will continue to target you, if taunt ends and you're not the highest threat it will target the highest threat.


One caveat, someone has to pass the threat tresholds to pull off you before the fixate runs out.

This is 10% for melee range, 30% for range.

So taunt equalizes you on threat with the highest threat character on the table. And it fixates the mob on you for 3 seconds. To "pull back", someone has to get 110% of your threat value while in melee range or 130% of your threat at range.

Regardless, this will only occur after the fixate debuff runs out.

Also, during the fixate, unless they removed it from Warlords, the person who taunted generates additional threat.
Hawhawhawhawhaw! Horde scum!

There is so much division within the Horde. We will use that division to crush all of you!


FTFY
12/22/2016 06:05 AMPosted by Tiapriestess
12/22/2016 01:09 AMPosted by Velesta
I don't understand tanks that rage over AI things taunting of them, whatever you take less damage and let the ai pixels die...why are you *that* mad?

I'd love it if you can summon treants that heals for me.


When any AI mob taunts off of the tank, the mob's threat table is essentially wiped, meaning that while DPS and healers are still going full bore, the tank needs to rebuild threat, preferrably before the aforementioned DPS and healer are turned into applesauce.


This is 100% incorrect.

This is what taunt does:

A:) The taunting NPC or playergains threat equal to the highest person on the aggro table at that time (the tank, usually)
B:) The mob is fixated on the NPC or player that taunted it for a certain period of time (3 seconds I think).

The aggro table is not wiped. The tank does not lose any threat. He will still be highest on the aggro table because tanks innately get a 500% bonus to threat generation. As soon as the fixate section of the taunt wears off, the mob will be straight back onto the tank.

Where taunts become an issue is when an NPC or player taunts a mob before the tank is even tanking it, meaning it's not in range of the tank's AOE and therefore the tank isn't building threat on it. More common with ranged mobs.

The reason tanks get angry about taunting is that most of them still believe that mobs need to be hitting them for them to do their job, which just isn't true any more. There are some cases like Brambles talent for druids and maybe some DH abilities, but generally tank resource generation has nothing to do with how many mobs are you hitting you or how hard.
12/22/2016 06:05 AMPosted by Tiapriestess
When any AI mob taunts off of the tank, the mob's threat table is essentially wiped, meaning that while DPS and healers are still going full bore, the tank needs to rebuild threat, preferrably before the aforementioned DPS and healer are turned into applesauce. A tank can taunt back, yes, but once the taunt effect wears off, he's back to whatever aggro he could generate up until then, and if it isn't higher than both the DPS and healer, it's often game over. For all intents and purposes, an AI taunt off of the tank equates to a combat drop.


No just no. Taunts have a duration. If you have a class that can taunt you can see the duration of the taunt. After that the mob reverts back to the next highest threat which should, best case scenario, be the tank.

Taunts do not wipe the threat table. They create a focus point for a short set duration of time.

Can certain mobs wipe their own threat tables? Yes, BC dungeons are an example of this. Certain bosses can wipe the tanks threat and go after someone else. It's part of the fight. Taunts do not operate the same way.

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