Paladin class fantasy?

General Discussion
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01/05/2017 09:38 AMPosted by Kibeeto
They have to send an email? Why? Lol. Does Or even work for blizz?


They're community managers. Employed by Blizzard to try to keep the community from derping all over the place and going full on Lord of the Flies on one another (a Sisyphean task if ever I've heard of one).

They relay what little useful feedback can be gleaned on these forums over to the development team as they deem appropriate, but yes of course they work for Blizzard.. just not as game developers/engineers. As shocking as it might seem, large companies employ people for a variety of support based reasons that don't directly relate to product development.
Lets be honest here the blue community manager position is a glorified " oh look they are listening" position and is just for show.

Must be a fun/easy job if they are paid for....whatever they do. ( sending emails? )
01/04/2017 05:46 PMPosted by Sergonar
01/04/2017 03:25 PMPosted by Ornyx
Why do you feel blessings and auras are fun? I can understand that it feels "nice" to help other players with buff spells, but, in general, they were just niche spells that actually didn't contribute much to meaningful game play (Seals are a different story, I guess). I never thought to myself


I had a passionate reply about the social benefit of little buffs half-finished when I noticed I'm still carrying a stack of awesomefish that has remained unused through Legion so far.


I still have my awesome fish in my bags too lmao, we should probably use them at some point.
01/04/2017 03:25 PMPosted by Ornyx
Why do you feel blessings and auras are fun? I can understand that it feels "nice" to help other players with buff spells, but, in general, they were just niche spells that actually didn't contribute much to meaningful game play (Seals are a different story, I guess). I never thought to myself on my Pally that turning on Retribution or Devotion Aura was going to result in an exciting change besides some passive armor or thorns-like-damage reflect.

The anti-undead themed abilities were cool though, in my opinion. I guess the question there that had to be answered was what happens when there's a zone or dungeon with no undead? Or an entire expansion without undead? Those skills essentially became useless.

The class can mean different things to everyone, so there's no right answer. Not trying to troll here btw, just personally curious on these points. :)

Also, updated descriptions of each class and spec were provided in the Legion Class Preview series, and you can find the Paladin one here: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19955661


As someone who has played a pally a very long time: I loved having meaningful buffs. My favorite thing about being a pally has always been how I can help other players. Even strangers. A lot of that feeling is gone.

Not everyone approaches gaming in the usual competitive way. Some of us find being cooperative, helpful, and supportive far more rewarding than just having the highest dps. Why not heal then, you ask? Because healing in this game is always problematic. Too easy and you just spam one button. Too hard and you feel like every wipe is all your fault. And doing solo content is slow and tedious.

I liked being a ret pally back in the day, throwing buffs and heals, jumping in to temp-tank, but able to do decent damage solo.
01/05/2017 10:46 AMPosted by Spinster
01/04/2017 03:25 PMPosted by Ornyx
Why do you feel blessings and auras are fun? I can understand that it feels "nice" to help other players with buff spells, but, in general, they were just niche spells that actually didn't contribute much to meaningful game play (Seals are a different story, I guess). I never thought to myself on my Pally that turning on Retribution or Devotion Aura was going to result in an exciting change besides some passive armor or thorns-like-damage reflect.

The anti-undead themed abilities were cool though, in my opinion. I guess the question there that had to be answered was what happens when there's a zone or dungeon with no undead? Or an entire expansion without undead? Those skills essentially became useless.

The class can mean different things to everyone, so there's no right answer. Not trying to troll here btw, just personally curious on these points. :)

Also, updated descriptions of each class and spec were provided in the Legion Class Preview series, and you can find the Paladin one here: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19955661


As someone who has played a pally a very long time: I loved having meaningful buffs. My favorite thing about being a pally has always been how I can help other players. Even strangers. A lot of that feeling is gone.

Not everyone approaches gaming in the usual competitive way. Some of us find being cooperative, helpful, and supportive far more rewarding than just having the highest dps. Why not heal then, you ask? Because healing in this game is always problematic. Too easy and you just spam one button. Too hard and you feel like every wipe is all your fault. And doing solo content is slow and tedious.

I liked being a ret pally back in the day, throwing buffs and heals, jumping in to temp-tank, but able to do decent damage solo.


You'd love Holy in Legion as it plays exactly like your last paragraph describes.

Retribution also has buffs, so dunno what you're complaining about.
01/05/2017 10:57 AMPosted by Berith
01/05/2017 10:46 AMPosted by Spinster
...

As someone who has played a pally a very long time: I loved having meaningful buffs. My favorite thing about being a pally has always been how I can help other players. Even strangers. A lot of that feeling is gone.

Not everyone approaches gaming in the usual competitive way. Some of us find being cooperative, helpful, and supportive far more rewarding than just having the highest dps. Why not heal then, you ask? Because healing in this game is always problematic. Too easy and you just spam one button. Too hard and you feel like every wipe is all your fault. And doing solo content is slow and tedious.

I liked being a ret pally back in the day, throwing buffs and heals, jumping in to temp-tank, but able to do decent damage solo.


You'd love Holy in Legion as it plays exactly like your last paragraph describes.

Retribution also has buffs, so dunno what you're complaining about.


You mean those buffs that are also getting removed like Blessing of Might?
Don't post if you're not sure of what you're talking about please.
01/05/2017 09:23 AMPosted by Tyberim
01/04/2017 03:25 PMPosted by Ornyx
Why do you feel blessings and auras are fun? I can understand that it feels "nice" to help other players with buff spells, but, in general, they were just niche spells that actually didn't contribute much to meaningful game play (Seals are a different story, I guess). I never thought to myself on my Pally that turning on Retribution or Devotion Aura was going to result in an exciting change besides some passive armor or thorns-like-damage reflect.

The anti-undead themed abilities were cool though, in my opinion. I guess the question there that had to be answered was what happens when there's a zone or dungeon with no undead? Or an entire expansion without undead? Those skills essentially became useless.

The class can mean different things to everyone, so there's no right answer. Not trying to troll here btw, just personally curious on these points. :)

Also, updated descriptions of each class and spec were provided in the Legion Class Preview series, and you can find the Paladin one here: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19955661


I doubt you'll read this because the thread has gone on for so long, but for the sake of providing feedback, I'll throw my two cents in the ring.

I'm going to base my argument around Paladins and Shamans, but a lot of what I'm going to say could just as easily be applied to other classes and the buffs they used to have.

So, why are Blessings and Auras fun? For the sake of including Shamans in the argument, I'll combine Auras with Totems, but will just call them Auras.

The reason why players enjoyed Paladin auras doesnt come from any one source. Giving someone an extra 2% physical damage reduction with Devotion Aura may not be gamebreaking, but it was there. You could always tell that the Paladin had your back just by looking up at the corner of your screen and seeing that shield icon for Devotion Aura. But that 'hell yeah' feeling from Auras wasnt solely a gameplay function.

When players talk about class fantasy, one of the things I think Blizzard constantly misunderstands isnt just how the class feels to play, it's how the class should play in terms of lore. A Paladin isnt just a Warrior who happens to use the Light. They're a guardian, a divine protector, a shield who stands at the front lines and protects their allies. You'll never find a Paladin sitting in the back with a bow or hurling magic. They wear Plate for a reason, and that reason is because you'll always find them right in the middle of the brawl.

A Paladin is a knight who leads from the front lines, but that isnt what defines them. A Paladin is a righteous crusader who protects the innocent, shields their allies, and takes the brunt of the damage onto themselves. When a group of soldiers see that a Paladin has joined the fight on their side, they get a burst of morale, because now the Paladin is here to save them and suddenly there's hope of winning when there wasn't before.

A Paladin's Auras represented that perfectly. When a Paladin is in a fight, they dont just fight the enemy, they strengthen and rally their allies. Soldiers who were wounded are suddenly brought back from the brink of death when the Paladin lays their hands on them. Soldiers who fled in fear find their courage bolstered. Soldiers who are exhausted find the strength to pick up their swords and march back into the fray. A Paladin brings that sense of duty and courage and hope with their mere presence, and giving Paladins the ability to strengthen their allies through Aura spells was a fun and thematic way of presenting that.

Not to fire shots or start a flamewar, but the reason that Auras were removed werent because players didn't like them, it's because Blizzard didn't like them. Paladin Auras were nerfed several times because Blizzard didn't like how a Paladin's allies were essentially getting free buffs, despite that being an iconic theme of the class. Then when the nerfs were so heavy that the Auras did effectively nothing, they were removed entirely. Players never asked for this. Asking players why they want something back that made the class fun 'because it wasnt good' is a bit disingenuous when Blizzard is the reason they werent good to begin with.

TL;DR Paladins want their Auras back because a Paladin's presence grants strength and hope to their allies. That's what a Paladin does. Taking that away weakens the theme of the class as a whole, and pruning abilities just because they'd be easier to bake into the class is not an improvement of design.
I don't think it's anything close to "shots fired", I think it's a perfectly reasonable explanation.

I feel like the nerfs that came to them were a move in the direction of making it to where bringing a Paladin didn't feel necessary to the group because of the buffs they provided, which is much the same with Shaman totems. Though I understand the sentiment a bit more with Shaman totems (its never felt the same since they were removed in Mists), as I've played my Shaman longer than my Paladin. Even now, the auras are given off at a much reduced range, with different effects for the most part, which isn't so much akin to how it was previously.

My concern there is that there is probably a better and more involved way of bringing that theme of an "inspiring presence" to the battlefield than what auras were/are. Personally, I think the way they are now may not be a good "fantasy" of this, and there are probably improvements that could be made to the overall theme, but I'm not too sure which way they could/might go. This is more the reason I ask why you want it back.

Fun is subjective, sure, but in that vein its good to note that the game's population has very much diversified since the days where auras were as you remember, and there is a much wider audience who might not look at it in the way of "turning on this passive buff really felt like I was inspiring my group and creating a meaningful difference". Its hard to see when looking at the forum community, as most posters here are some of the longest-time players, and don't always represent, I feel, a super wide berth. Creating a skill that lasting and memorable for that greater group seems like a better direction, philosophically, (albeit a harder one) and creating something feels like auras did way back when, but has an impact that adheres to more modern design is something I can see us doing more than just giving auras back as they were.

I don't necessarily have answers to these questions, and I don't necessarily feel there is a "right" answer. Also worth saying: what I say isn't necessarily our design direction, FYI.
There's a lot of interesting viewpoints in this thread. Some supporting and disagreeing with the way Blizzards has taken the game and classes. I just started the game back. I played in Vanilla all the way through Cata. This thread talks about some interesting topics and one that caused me to quit the game. I played a Rogue as my first toon and a Paladin second. I loved the lore and feel of those classes. They needed changes in Vanilla and TBC mostly QOL and some class changes. What they got was their entire core changed and turned into weaker versions of what they used to be.

My rogue is first, I like the new changes to combat, I mean Outlaw(RtB is way too RNG), Sub sounds fantastic and it seems like Sin stayed mostly the same but picked up SStep so they have some mobility. What I don't like is how much has been taken from this class. Detect traps is gone(R.I.P swirly ball), Poison should be available for every spec and seriously make Rogues brew it like they used to. Shady Dealers(and class trainers) are basically worthless now. They do nothing, there's no feel to the class now. I remember Ravenholt Manor, doing my class quests, brewing poisons, farming fadeleaf(rogues were herbalists), I felt like a Rogue. I wanted so bad to be able to join SI:7 and be an operative for my King. I wanted more story with Ravenholt, I seem to have the story now with class halls but the feel is gone. Rogues were a cooldown dependent class for the most part, mainly in pvp. But you could tell the best Rogues by their timing. I felt like I had an internal cadence to my energy regeneration. I could feel my energy(20 every 2s) and wouldn't need to watch my energy bar. Now energy is plentiful and combo points are neverending. Which brings me to why I quit WOW in Cata.

Plate wearing Holy Rogues via holy combo points, I mean power. Paladins were defenders, they protected and aided. Auras, blessings, all that jazz. They were a fun class with Seals and Judgement. You chose based on what was needed. No they didn't have a normal interrupt but Hammer of Justice was so much better thematically to stop a spell instead of what we have now(it's CD was just too long). They didn't have speed boosts but they limited your speed with judgement of justice. I had choices and buffs and debuffs, I felt like a holy warrior. Now my paladin feels interchangeable with my warrior I just have different particles.

I love this game still even though I didn't play it for a while. The story and lore is amazing aside from a few butchered characters. But I am not certain it will continue to hold my interests based on how gutted my favorite classes have been.

One last thing, DH being able to see stealth is probably the most retarded thing on the planet. I remember when it was said Perception was too strong and it was changed from an active ability to a passive one. Now DH get it for free?
01/05/2017 09:23 AMPosted by Tyberim
01/04/2017 03:25 PMPosted by Ornyx
Why do you feel blessings and auras are fun? I can understand that it feels "nice" to help other players with buff spells, but, in general, they were just niche spells that actually didn't contribute much to meaningful game play (Seals are a different story, I guess). I never thought to myself on my Pally that turning on Retribution or Devotion Aura was going to result in an exciting change besides some passive armor or thorns-like-damage reflect.

The anti-undead themed abilities were cool though, in my opinion. I guess the question there that had to be answered was what happens when there's a zone or dungeon with no undead? Or an entire expansion without undead? Those skills essentially became useless.

The class can mean different things to everyone, so there's no right answer. Not trying to troll here btw, just personally curious on these points. :)

Also, updated descriptions of each class and spec were provided in the Legion Class Preview series, and you can find the Paladin one here: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/19955661


I doubt you'll read this because the thread has gone on for so long, but for the sake of providing feedback, I'll throw my two cents in the ring.

I'm going to base my argument around Paladins and Shamans, but a lot of what I'm going to say could just as easily be applied to other classes and the buffs they used to have.

So, why are Blessings and Auras fun? For the sake of including Shamans in the argument, I'll combine Auras with Totems, but will just call them Auras.

The reason why players enjoyed Paladin auras doesnt come from any one source. Giving someone an extra 2% physical damage reduction with Devotion Aura may not be gamebreaking, but it was there. You could always tell that the Paladin had your back just by looking up at the corner of your screen and seeing that shield icon for Devotion Aura. But that 'hell yeah' feeling from Auras wasnt solely a gameplay function.

When players talk about class fantasy, one of the things I think Blizzard constantly misunderstands isnt just how the class feels to play, it's how the class should play in terms of lore. A Paladin isnt just a Warrior who happens to use the Light. They're a guardian, a divine protector, a shield who stands at the front lines and protects their allies. You'll never find a Paladin sitting in the back with a bow or hurling magic. They wear Plate for a reason, and that reason is because you'll always find them right in the middle of the brawl.

A Paladin is a knight who leads from the front lines, but that isnt what defines them. A Paladin is a righteous crusader who protects the innocent, shields their allies, and takes the brunt of the damage onto themselves. When a group of soldiers see that a Paladin has joined the fight on their side, they get a burst of morale, because now the Paladin is here to save them and suddenly there's hope of winning when there wasn't before.

A Paladin's Auras represented that perfectly. When a Paladin is in a fight, they dont just fight the enemy, they strengthen and rally their allies. Soldiers who were wounded are suddenly brought back from the brink of death when the Paladin lays their hands on them. Soldiers who fled in fear find their courage bolstered. Soldiers who are exhausted find the strength to pick up their swords and march back into the fray. A Paladin brings that sense of duty and courage and hope with their mere presence, and giving Paladins the ability to strengthen their allies through Aura spells was a fun and thematic way of presenting that.

Not to fire shots or start a flamewar, but the reason that Auras were removed werent because players didn't like them, it's because Blizzard didn't like them. Paladin Auras were nerfed several times because Blizzard didn't like how a Paladin's allies were essentially getting free buffs, despite that being an iconic theme of the class. Then when the nerfs were so heavy that the Auras did effectively nothing, they were removed entirely. Players never asked for this. Asking players why they want something back that made the class fun 'because it wasnt good' is a bit disingenuous when Blizzard is the reason they werent good to begin with.

TL;DR Paladins want their Auras back because a Paladin's presence grants strength and hope to their allies. That's what a Paladin does. Taking that away weakens the theme of the class as a whole, and pruning abilities just because they'd be easier to bake into the class is not an improvement of design.


I almost teared up reading this. Great post and I completely agree.
01/05/2017 11:51 AMPosted by Ornyx
I feel like the nerfs that came to them were a move in the direction of making it to where bringing a Paladin didn't feel necessary to the group because of the buffs they provided


What does the Paladin have now that they didn't have before that makes groups want to bring a Paladin over another class? I've only seen pruning and no additions. If anything, Legion has brought less of a reason to bring a Paladin then ever before.

For example, Blizzard has designed Paladins to be excellent tanks through numbers, block, self heal, etc. not through interesting abilities to cast. In truth, there isnt much except my mog that makes me feel different than my Warrior.

Let's be honest here, the reason for the nerfs are, logically, they did not want to balance the game around buffs. It was probably easier for them to just balance through numbers. There really is no logical explanation for all of the pruning that has gone on.

There was no reason to take away Exorcism, there just wasnt, who was it hurting? Sure, it didn't work in every situation, and as you said yourself, what if there wasn't any undead or demons in a particular instance or raid? Well, that would be where design come in - developers can throw Undead or Demons in as they please, it is their game, after all. But you know, back in wrath when I casted exorcism, I felt like a Paladin smiting the Undead. And if there was no Undead to use it on, thats fine too because it's in my arsenal waiting for an opportunity.
01/04/2017 04:04 PMPosted by Leviholyswag
Class Fantasy is a key component of Class Design. The player is asking is asking about the removal of specific spells, and it's a good conversation to ask why they feel they were impactful and created engagement for them when they existed.
QUOTE


I agree let's talk class fantasy then. How does one figure out what class fantasy even is? Is it the way their class should play out in the game? Is it what abilities they should have in the game? Is it what role that class should fall into?

Class fantasy is the biggest hoax ever pushed on an RPG title. People played dungeon and dragons because they could decide what their class did and what abilities they used. The fantasy part was about having options to build a character and/or build a class. So if class fantasy is about fullfilling the idea of what the players class should fight like, look like and play like then let them make the choices. Give them the option of making choices at the very least.

On the other hand if class fantasy is about some preconceived idea by the Game Designer about what a class should be then what is left for the player to do? Nothing.

Instead of telling a story in WoW and giving options to players on how to shape their characters we are at a point where Game Designers hide behind their ideas of what "Class Fantasy" is and should be. Gone are the days where players were given loads of talents, abilities, gear choices and play-styles to choose from in order to create their unique character.

Leave Mind Sear, Blessings, Auras, Gouge for ALL rogue specs, traps for ALL hunter specs, and a host of other abilities in the game. Let the player build the character and let the Game Dev's build the world around it.

So yes let's talk class fantasy, but first let's define it because there's the Dev's definition and the traditional definition that was used to create this game in the first place.

Edit: Perhaps, we should start to have the conversation of why so much ability pruning has taken place. Because it seems to many people that the pruning was happening in an effort to coax people into a streamlined "class fantasy."


I wish this idea of "Class Fantasy" was actually defined by Blizzard as well. From a philosophical standpoint at least.
01/05/2017 11:32 AMPosted by Panterá
You mean those buffs that are also getting removed like Blessing of Might? Don't post if you're not sure of what you're talking about please.


Kings and Wisdom are staying and are getting a buff. The only one we're losing is Greater Blessing of Might because it was bad gameplay. It was a zero sum buff that had us running around at 93% Normal damage (Self buffed) rather than the 100% we should have always been running around at.

I'm also perfectly pleased with the amount of utility I have. LoH, BoP and Freedom are great and my off-heals are particularly strong with my legendary belt and 60% increase from traits + relic. I look forward to being able to contribute 10% more damage, due to the loss of Might, without having to rely on my comrades.

Also the nostalgia for buffing and having arbitrary auras is harmful. The games current iteration does not support a 'support' class. I'm sure a lot of Retribution Paladins would get angry over being benched because the raid only needs one for buffs because they couldn't pull their weight otherwise.

01/05/2017 11:32 AMPosted by Panterá
Don't post if you're not sure of what you're talking about please.


No. I'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about. You're still stuck in the past.
I think that the paladin aura (and shaman totem) has a role to play in WoW. Perhaps not as a persistent buff, but maybe more as a cool-down, following the totem model (drop one and everyone in range or in the party/raid gets a temporary boost of some kind) rather than the aura model (always-on minor proximity buff).

I think both the aura and the totem are important elements to the paladin and shaman classes, but maybe Blizzard has, of late, struggled to make the gameplay associated with auras and totems interesting, active, or engaging. As someone who plays shaman a lot, and over several expansions, it doesn't always feel like Blizzard knows what they want to do with totems.

There used to be a paladin spell - I think! (not 100% sure) that when cast would super-charge the aura they were using. I think that offers a good choice, and good gameplay. More armor, more healing, more reflected damage, etc - there are some worthwhile choices there. As a shaman, I loved being able to pull out some totem that people forgot all about to give a little boost to my group. And part of the choice for both auras and totems is location and proximity.

I'm a fan of the idea of class fantasy - I like the idea that significant thought is going into fulfilling the idea invoked by the class, it's heroes, its abilities, and lore.

But niche abilities often provide unexpected depth and opportunity for classes, and while losing them may not cripple the class in terms of filling a dungeon role, it does demonstrably limit the fantasy and what we might see as obstacles or opportunities in the world.

For instance, a locked door leading to a short cut or a lucrative room. Blink past it. Pick the lock. Double-jump to a ledge and glide over it. Charge (Bear or Warrior) into it and break it down. Smash it to splinters with landslide. Access and difficulty don't always need to be measured by damage done and damage taken. Some of the glider puzzles in Draenor seemed like a promising start to more class-based open-world challenges and that never materialized.

Why can a rogue pick locks if it's never utilized? Does the fact that it's never utilized mean that pick locks should be removed or does it mean that maybe design should add some opportunities to the world so that rogues have a reason to use that ability, have value to other players, so that they get to feel special by doing something no one else can do?

That was a disappointment in the Artifact acquisitions - I expected more challenges that would test your abilities with that class and spec. "No other class - no other spec - could succeed here except my own..."
Posted by Tybarim

[snipped because it's fairly long, but go read it!]

Good to know there's a fellow kindred spirit out there.

<-- Proud to have been a "buff !@#$%"
01/05/2017 11:51 AMPosted by Ornyx
I feel like the nerfs that came to them were a move in the direction of making it to where bringing a Paladin didn't feel necessary to the group because of the buffs they provided, which is much the same with Shaman totems. Though I understand the sentiment a bit more with Shaman totems (its never felt the same since they were removed in Mists), as I've played my Shaman longer than my Paladin. Even now, the auras are given off at a much reduced range, with different effects for the most part, which isn't so much akin to how it was previously.


While the nerfs probably were a solution to Paladins feeling like they were "auto-include", I feel like a more elegant solution would have been to offset their party buffs by reducing individual contribution in a group. There's not really "support" classes in WoW anymore, which has been a linchpin of RPGs since the first Bard was rolled up. WoW feels like it is becoming very homogenizes, and the pruning that occurred in Legion is speeding up this process. The criticism of this pruning is evidence that homogenization is not the direction WoW should be going to remain sustainable.
Ya let's give Rets three different buttons that they will only press once each every 60 minutes and call them Blessings.

Also, let's remove buffs because they're buttons people press once every 60 minutes and forget about them (or unless someone dies).

NAILED IT!
Devotion Aura, Sac, Exorcism, Freedom that we could actually spare on a team mate, blinding light, rep

#neverforget
01/05/2017 11:32 AMPosted by Panterá
01/05/2017 10:57 AMPosted by Berith
...

You'd love Holy in Legion as it plays exactly like your last paragraph describes.

Retribution also has buffs, so dunno what you're complaining about.


You mean those buffs that are also getting removed like Blessing of Might?
Don't post if you're not sure of what you're talking about please.


Blessing of Might is the only one that is getting removed and with good reason : it is very bad and unfun to everyone involved.

With it gone, you will now be able to actually use Blessing of Kings and Blessing of Wisdom, enabling you to actually have some choice in where to best apply your utility for your group, instead of satisfying the zero sum game that otherwise gimps your DPS.

Might is not a good buff. Wisdom and Kings just cannot be used while Might exists.
01/05/2017 12:29 PMPosted by Poonthrasher
Devotion Aura, Sac, Exorcism, Freedom that we could actually spare on a team mate, blinding light, rep

#neverforget


Aside from Eco, which is just renamed to Blade of Justice, all the abilities you named are still in game.
01/05/2017 12:43 PMPosted by Berith
Blessing of Might is the only one that is getting removed and with good reason : it is very bad and unfun to everyone involved.


Why did they make it unfun? It used to just give the raid a buff. What was so bad about that?

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