Here's What's Wrong With Legion To Me

General Discussion
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01/23/2017 02:11 PMPosted by Zega
When I looked at the title I kind of thought you'd have complaints about the Legion...The Burning Legion and you would talk about how they needed too step their game up.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh! It's too bad I could only upvote this once.

To the OP, I enjoy LFR, too, but it's pretty much a given that it will give the least amount of rewards, since it's the easiest level of difficulty. I'd rather it be that way than removed from the game completely as is often suggested by some (not all) disgruntled progression raiders.
01/23/2017 08:24 PMPosted by Christie
01/23/2017 08:15 PMPosted by Anacryss
I don't mind the premade group finder I use it all the time for heroic en and mythic +, and sometimes start my own raid groups. However, I am extremely mad you can't form mythic EN raids in premade group finder. There is absolutely no reason why mythic should be excluded. I don't care how hard it would be or how many wipes. You could ask for 885+ if you want. People who are not in set raid groups should have a chance. I think it's total BS they don't allow people to form pug groups on their own for mythic EN.


I really do not have any sympathy for your raid-related issues.


Did you miss the part where I mentioned the premade group finder? You can easily get normal raid groups using it or start your own and people will join. Although the lfr queue is easier.

I wasn't looking for sympathy. I was pointing out another flaw with finding raid groups. I can only assume your not doing normal EN because there is no queue.
01/23/2017 08:52 PMPosted by Anacryss
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I really do not have any sympathy for your raid-related issues.


Did you miss the part where I mentioned the premade group finder? You can easily get normal raid groups using it or start your own and people will join. Although the lfr queue is easier.

I wasn't looking for sympathy. I was pointing out another flaw with finding raid groups. I can only assume your not doing normal EN because there is no queue.


I'm not doing Normal raids in general because I don't like them.

01/23/2017 08:43 PMPosted by Maldonix
01/23/2017 02:11 PMPosted by Zega
When I looked at the title I kind of thought you'd have complaints about the Legion...The Burning Legion and you would talk about how they needed too step their game up.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh! It's too bad I could only upvote this once.

To the OP, I enjoy LFR, too, but it's pretty much a given that it will give the least amount of rewards, since it's the easiest level of difficulty. I'd rather it be that way than removed from the game completely as is often suggested by some (not all) disgruntled progression raiders.


I have always been okay with receiving the worst rewards in LFR.

I supported LFR gear having its own set bonuses and lacking powerful trinkets in WoD because I did not want Normal+ mode raiders feeling compelled to do LFR for gear if they didn't want to be in LFR.

I came to like LFR gear having its own aesthetics in WoD because it increased the variety of aesthetics in the game.

I have never complained about LFR gear offering worse gear than any other raid difficulty, Mythic dungeons, or Empowered Timeless/Tanaan gear (I considered these last two okay because they came at the end of the expansion and took quite a bit of effort for me to get, to the point where I actually replaced my LFR HFC gear with Empowered Tanaan gear on my main, in that order).

I have never complained about the difficulty in any LFR raid. Any wing that I considered to be too difficult for me to clear at the time, I simply avoided, and I never asked for nerfs on the forums.

I am a person who has spent my life rolling with the punches, playing the hand I've been dealt, challenging myself wherever I feel it necessary, and never giving up even in the face of overwhelming odds (actually, my favorite PvP situation to be in is called a "hopeless last stand" because facing overwhelming odds is more fun for me than a fair fight and I don't consider losing to be a ruiner of fun).

But, the changes to LFR in Legion are ones I simply cannot adapt to and enjoy what I can about an altered version of the game.

Because there is nothing about it that I enjoy. Absolutely nothing, whatsoever. There is no fun to be had, at all.

And that is the only punch I cannot roll with. A death blow.
01/23/2017 01:57 PMPosted by Christie
To preface this, this is of course my own opinion. I do not mean to insinuate that my opinion is widespread or even popular, and I fully agree that literally everything I am about to say is only applicable to me. I say these words on the verge of tears, with heavy heart.

To me, the problem with Legion, that I don't think can be solved by any patch, no matter how laden with balance upgrades and content, is with the developers themselves, and their view of their players.

On the surface, Legion seems like a paradise to a casual gamer like myself. World Quests giving overpowered gear for non-raiders, Titanforging to improve gear like never before for people who've never been able to raid, Challenging Mythic Dungeons with additional difficulty modes based on skill, and on, and on, and on.

But, there is something which I crave, which I have loved about WoW since patch 4.3, which is not there at all in Legion.

Proper support for LFR.

I am one of those unusual players who absolutely loves LFR. Despite all the problems with it, despite all the terribly-skilled players, despite all the wipes and all the problems, it has been my favorite part of the game since 2011 when it was first introduced.

And yes, it is still there. It is possible to log in, and queue up for LFR, and clear the raid on LFR, and sometimes get loot.

But despite all that, there is no reason to actually do LFR for me in Legion.

The only rewards from LFR in Legion for me... is nothing.

There is gear from bosses, yes, but by the time the raid comes out I have better. It can be Titanforged, yes, but this merely creates frustration when the gear I want drops but is not actually the version I want, and I choose to avoid that frustration. There are achievements, yes, but only meaningless ones saying that I killed a boss. There are buff items to sell to raiders, yes, but I already have 600,000g.

There are things to get, but I do not want any of them.

And it seems this is actually by design. According to Ion Hazzikostas, the additional rewards from raiding that were previously available to LFR in past expansions, now are not, in order to further reward non-queued group PvE content.

As if it were not enough for non-LFR raid difficulties to have, exclusively for them, almost all the achievements, all of the titles, all of the mounts, almost all of the pets, the best gear, the most prestige, the easiest upgrades, the earliest clears, and on, and on, and on... it seems that is not enough. It seems that non-LFR modes are not suitably-rewarded with almost all of the meaningful rewards, it must actually have all of them.

And without meaningful rewards from LFR, WoW is not worth playing for me. To me, Legion is not the utopia of the casual gamer, it is the triumph of the Elitist over the Casual.

Congratulations, Elitists. You have won this war against LFR at long last, and you didn't even need to get it removed from the game.


I do LFR because each boss has a chance to drop a legendary. That is more than enough reason for me.
01/23/2017 07:31 PMPosted by Christie
01/23/2017 07:16 PMPosted by Sathelihta
OP is definitely off his/her meds.


From what do you draw that conclusion, exactly?


From your rambling nonsensical replies to the thread.
01/23/2017 10:36 PMPosted by Sathelihta
01/23/2017 07:31 PMPosted by Christie
...

From what do you draw that conclusion, exactly?


From your rambling nonsensical replies to the thread.


Why are you continuing to post here?
01/23/2017 10:54 PMPosted by Christie
01/23/2017 10:36 PMPosted by Sathelihta
...

From your rambling nonsensical replies to the thread.


Why are you continuing to post here?


I think a better question is why are you? For someone that hasn't had an achievement since 11/19 (and possibly has not logged in since then) and has quit the game and found something "better", not really sure what you're trying to get out of posting on the forums.
she mad bro
01/23/2017 02:43 PMPosted by Christie
I absolutely loved how faceroll WoD LFR was, and it was one of the high points of the expansion for me.


Wow. You are in a very small minority. WoD LFR was the ultimate form of tedium along with the dreaded shipyard.
01/23/2017 08:15 PMPosted by Anacryss
However, I am extremely mad you can't form mythic EN raids in premade group finder


Except you can now doe ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
01/23/2017 02:18 PMPosted by Christie


As for what I want, it's simple:

1. A long-term quest chain to grind in LFR over the months of the expansion. Balance of Power in Legion, and the Legendary Questlines in MoP and WoD would be suitable for this.

2. Gear rewards that I actually care about. I don't want the rewards LFR offers in Legion, because the gear I got from my Class Set and World Quests is better and I don't like the Titanforged system at all. The gear I got from soloing Legion's open world for a month before the first wing of LFR came out... was better than the gear from my preferred raid difficulty. They don't have to be powerful, they don't have to be glamorous, and I was perfectly content with LFR's gear rewards in Cata, MoP and even WoD.

That's all I want from LFR.


I am a supporter of LFR and I agree some of those cosmetic rewards should have been in LFR but there is no way I would do another long questline. This expansion really has way way too much max level questing in my opinion.

I love the way they have the gearing really this expansion. There will be tier sets in LFR in Nighthold and that is something you won't be able to get doing WQ.

It is sort of odd you say you love LFR but you aren't doing it. I love the gearing system this expansion but I still do LFR almost every week on a few toons.
01/23/2017 09:11 PMPosted by Christie
I have always been okay with receiving the worst rewards in LFR.

I supported LFR gear having its own set bonuses and lacking powerful trinkets in WoD because I did not want Normal+ mode raiders feeling compelled to do LFR for gear if they didn't want to be in LFR.

I came to like LFR gear having its own aesthetics in WoD because it increased the variety of aesthetics in the game.

I have never complained about LFR gear offering worse gear than any other raid difficulty, Mythic dungeons, or Empowered Timeless/Tanaan gear (I considered these last two okay because they came at the end of the expansion and took quite a bit of effort for me to get, to the point where I actually replaced my LFR HFC gear with Empowered Tanaan gear on my main, in that order).

I have never complained about the difficulty in any LFR raid. Any wing that I considered to be too difficult for me to clear at the time, I simply avoided, and I never asked for nerfs on the forums.

I am a person who has spent my life rolling with the punches, playing the hand I've been dealt, challenging myself wherever I feel it necessary, and never giving up even in the face of overwhelming odds (actually, my favorite PvP situation to be in is called a "hopeless last stand" because facing overwhelming odds is more fun for me than a fair fight and I don't consider losing to be a ruiner of fun).

But, the changes to LFR in Legion are ones I simply cannot adapt to and enjoy what I can about an altered version of the game.

Because there is nothing about it that I enjoy. Absolutely nothing, whatsoever. There is no fun to be had, at all.

And that is the only punch I cannot roll with. A death blow.

Well, I am sincerely sorry to hear that. There are many little aspects to this game that I enjoy, things that others would find trivial or stupid, and I'd be frustrated if they were radically changed or removed completely from the game.
01/23/2017 01:57 PMPosted by Christie
is with the developers themselves, and their view of their players.


lol

01/23/2017 01:57 PMPosted by Christie
Proper support for LFR.


What support do you want? Its gives more than it should, imo it shouldn't drop anything because you know Blizzard pitched it as being a way for non raiders to see content.

01/23/2017 01:57 PMPosted by Christie
The only rewards from LFR in Legion for me... is nothing.
The loot reflects the difficulty, not rocket science.

01/23/2017 01:57 PMPosted by Christie
, it is the triumph of the Elitist over the Casual.


LMAO, 99% of the playerbase is casual so get off your soap box.
01/23/2017 02:12 PMPosted by Snowlîly
I agree. And yes before any of you go "hur dur typical LFR player wants everything." I've actually come out of my shell this expac and did normal and a little bit of Heroic raiding.

People who didn't just LFR got tons of nice things. Better things. (Like you mentioned). It looks like to me, that they're trying to slowly get rid of LFR. Which is really sad imo... not everyone has time to PUG for hours or set their time schedule for a raiding guild. People have lives. They're not all basement dwellers or kids.

It doesn't bother me much, but I can see how it does bother others. I hope they change their idea on this next expansion. (And also make LFR a bit more challenging :p)


I have a 7 month old son, and work 40 hours a week. I've still found time to raid with a guild. Idk, maybe I'm lucky but I know a few people in my situation who still raid regularly. LFR should honestly go, Normal is just as easy.
01/23/2017 01:57 PMPosted by Christie
To preface this, this is of course my own opinion. I do not mean to insinuate that my opinion is widespread or even popular, and I fully agree that literally everything I am about to say is only applicable to me. I say these words on the verge of tears, with heavy heart.

To me, the problem with Legion, that I don't think can be solved by any patch, no matter how laden with balance upgrades and content, is with the developers themselves, and their view of their players.

On the surface, Legion seems like a paradise to a casual gamer like myself. World Quests giving overpowered gear for non-raiders, Titanforging to improve gear like never before for people who've never been able to raid, Challenging Mythic Dungeons with additional difficulty modes based on skill, and on, and on, and on.

But, there is something which I crave, which I have loved about WoW since patch 4.3, which is not there at all in Legion.

Proper support for LFR.

I am one of those unusual players who absolutely loves LFR. Despite all the problems with it, despite all the terribly-skilled players, despite all the wipes and all the problems, it has been my favorite part of the game since 2011 when it was first introduced.

And yes, it is still there. It is possible to log in, and queue up for LFR, and clear the raid on LFR, and sometimes get loot.

But despite all that, there is no reason to actually do LFR for me in Legion.

The only rewards from LFR in Legion for me... is nothing.

There is gear from bosses, yes, but by the time the raid comes out I have better. It can be Titanforged, yes, but this merely creates frustration when the gear I want drops but is not actually the version I want, and I choose to avoid that frustration. There are achievements, yes, but only meaningless ones saying that I killed a boss. There are buff items to sell to raiders, yes, but I already have 600,000g.

There are things to get, but I do not want any of them.

And it seems this is actually by design. According to Ion Hazzikostas, the additional rewards from raiding that were previously available to LFR in past expansions, now are not, in order to further reward non-queued group PvE content.

As if it were not enough for non-LFR raid difficulties to have, exclusively for them, almost all the achievements, all of the titles, all of the mounts, almost all of the pets, the best gear, the most prestige, the easiest upgrades, the earliest clears, and on, and on, and on... it seems that is not enough. It seems that non-LFR modes are not suitably-rewarded with almost all of the meaningful rewards, it must actually have all of them.

And without meaningful rewards from LFR, WoW is not worth playing for me. To me, Legion is not the utopia of the casual gamer, it is the triumph of the Elitist over the Casual.

Congratulations, Elitists. You have won this war against LFR at long last, and you didn't even need to get it removed from the game.


Actually they screwed up with the Elitists too, making sure every special snowflake gets their participation trophy. So in their attempt to make everyone happy, they in turn made no one happy. Many people fall for this trap, so not surprised that Blizzard/Activision fell for it too.

My sub runs out at the end of this month, and I'm not sad at all. Luckily i didn't pay a red penny for it. It's definitely not worthy any money, so I just used up all the gold I collected over the past 10 years on tokens.

I am not completely unhappy though because I can continue playing on legacy servers. Blizz did do a great job on the first three expansions and I thank them for giving me that, so I will just continue to enjoy the quality game of TBC that I'm raiding on now instead of this watered down version of the game. Kara is seriously more fun as a raid then it is a dungeon! Can't wait to get to BT!!!
01/23/2017 11:47 PMPosted by Baphomet
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Why are you continuing to post here?


I think a better question is why are you? For someone that hasn't had an achievement since 11/19 (and possibly has not logged in since then) and has quit the game and found something "better", not really sure what you're trying to get out of posting on the forums.


Because with exactly 2 changes to WoW, I would resubscribe and start loving the game again because LFR would be fun for me again.

I wrote down those changes in an earlier post in this thread, and was downvoted, and told that my ideas were unacceptable.

I am still here after all these months because I don't want to quit WoW, I want to keep playing it and having fun, but the reality is that it's not fun for me anymore when I do play it. I want it to be fun again for me, and so I try to argue for changes that would make WoW more fun for me, to use what subscription time I have left to try to change some minds so that things can change.

Because I didn't cancel my subscriptions to make a point. I canceled them to save money, since there's no point in paying for a game I'm not playing at all.
It is perhaps most sad that the most common argument against LFR's existence can be summed up as, "I do normal mode raids, therefore LFR should be removed from existence."
01/23/2017 07:39 PMPosted by Christie
01/23/2017 07:33 PMPosted by Spinster
My friends and I played the crap out of LFR in Cata and MoP. That alone kept us subbed through two huge content droughts. The gear wasn't anything like what regular raiders could get, but it was a big deal to us.

And we aren't great at WoW, but we tried really hard to play LFR the right way. We were careful about the mechanics and we got the adds and on and on. It was, for lousy players like us, a great deal of fun.

And Blizzard wrecked it.

i still really don't get why. We won't ever do regular raiding. Nerfing LFR into the ground just made us all three unsub for the first time in over ten years. It didn't make us do harder content and therefore stick around. Killing LFR chased us away.

We came back for Legion. Unsubbed once for a couple months. Didn't play for a month while we were subbed in December. I mean . . .my version of the end game is gone, reduced to easy-mode do it for transmog mush, so it is hard to feel excited at all about moving forward.

Anyway I just thought I'd chime in with the OP. You aren't the only one, OP.


:: hugs :: It's nice to meet someone who actually likes what I say on this forum and doesn't insult me constantly.


But... @Spinster's POV about LFR basically mirrors mine and does not agree with your own, at all.

I'm still trying to figure out the problem. You said a couple of pages back that you do LFR for fun but that the existence of Titanforging makes LFR useless for you. But if you do LFR for fun what difference does it make? It's like saying you can't go outside because it's raining in London even though it's sunny in your own city.
So... you want Heroic raid gear from LFR?
01/24/2017 08:09 AMPosted by Wolfar
But... @Spinster's POV about LFR basically mirrors mine and does not agree with your own, at all.

I'm still trying to figure out the problem. You said a couple of pages back that you do LFR for fun but that the existence of Titanforging makes LFR useless for you. But if you do LFR for fun what difference does it make? It's like saying you can't go outside because it's raining in London even though it's sunny in your own city.


What I find fun about LFR is that it is an enjoyable way to progress my character. Simply doing LFR for the sake of doing LFR is not fun. Every time I go to LFR, I am hoping to accomplish something with that run.

So when I cannot get gear upgrades I want from LFR because I already have better gear than LFR drops, well, now there goes one reason to do LFR - progressing my gear to a complete LFR loadout, because the LFR gear is now a downgrade, which is the opposite of progression.

When I cannot do the Balance of Power questline in LFR, again, I lose THAT reason to do LFR.

Transmog gear always has potential... if I actually want that transmog gear. I don't collect transmog gear simply to have a collection, I acquire it piece-by-piece when I am trying new outfits. After 5 years of transmog's existence, and very frequent transmog changes, I have fairly solidly run through most of the outfits that I think look good and have settled on choosing from one of a handful I actually like. Legion's gear is not at all to my liking, the additional 3d modeling added to the already-existing pieces was done very, very poorly in my opinion, as it is not actually fully 3d-modeled equipment but simply a variety of standardized alterations to the character model itself and then the texture awkwardly stretched to fit without actually having been designed for that particular 3d model, because the texture and the model were designed entirely separately and then mashed together arbitrarily. To sum up how this looks in a word: Terrible. As such, Legion's contribution to my transmog equipment is effectively nil because Legion's transmog gear is the worst transmog gear ever made in WoW.

As such, I have nothing to progress when I run LFR, hence I have no reason to run LFR, hence I do not run LFR, hence WoW is not fun due to the changes to literally everything else I used to enjoy in WoW all interacting in a very complex fashion to create an iteration of WoW which is not fun for me whatsoever.

If I want to have fun simply to have fun in a video game, I will instead play a game whose gameplay is fun, not WoW.

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