Order Hall sets: what a WASTE

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02/01/2017 02:41 PMPosted by Ornyx
With the launch of 7.2, the opening quest for Broken Shore, along with various Broken Shore World Quests, will reward tokens to upgrade your Class Order Set to item level 860.


So the set will remain worthless to everyone in 7.2. The time requirements for the reputation alone will make 860 gear too low to wear, let alone the grind to get the 30k+ garrison resources that getting every non-850 item to 840 currently takes.

02/01/2017 02:41 PMPosted by Ornyx
It's worth noting that the intention with this set is more on the introductory side, with the aim of helping folks get geared up for content, rather than being a sole "end" set for any particular style of play.


It fails to fulfil that goal in a big way. Even the 2 free pieces we get, the head piece and wrists, are so low on item level that they're replaced within minutes of getting access to them. That is, of course, assuming we could even benefit from them in the first place thanks to the time gating on the garrison campaign making WQ rewards far stronger.

02/01/2017 02:41 PMPosted by Ornyx
Let us know if you have any feedback or questions on this!


I'll put this as diplomatically as I can:

Why do the developers have so poor an understanding of their own reward structure that they think 860, an item level that is considered too low 7.0 content, is in any way a reasonable starting point for 7.2 content?

02/01/2017 03:02 PMPosted by Ornyx
You can easily unlock the helm, wrist, and chest shortly after hitting 110, with the leggings being the next easiest, followed by the belt and gloves.


...you know that most of those pieces are 810 ilvl right?

I do think that players should expect to have to put in effort to obtain items, but it's still accurate to say that if you plan on playing and committing to an alt, you can still use these pieces as pretty large upgrades as your squire other gear.


Dude, this isn't a case of us not wanting to put in the work. It's a matter of the work not being given a worthwhile reward. None of the class hall sets can be worn as an upgrade by the time you have access to them on any character. They are either 1) too low in item level, 2) badly itemised, 3) take more time to unlock than it does to get a better upgrade through literally any other avenue available, or 4) a combination of 2 or more of the above.

You can't even use them as a timewalking set because the set bonus was nerfed into the ground with by the fun police.
Hey all,

Thanks for your feedback so far on this set. I've passed it along to the development team, and I've got a couple of things to share here.

With the launch of 7.2, the opening quest for Broken Shore, along with various Broken Shore World Quests, will reward tokens to upgrade your Class Order Set to item level 860.

It's worth noting that the intention with this set is more on the introductory side, with the aim of helping folks get geared up for content, rather than being a sole "end" set for any particular style of play.

If you're the kind of player who only does World Quests and World Bosses, this upgrade should help complement your armor roster, and may provide a few pieces of gear for you. If you're leveling alts, this upgrade will provide a good way to boost your character's item level once you hit 110 and jump into 7.2 content.

Let us know if you have any feedback or questions on this!


Even if the item level is bumped up, there's a few major issues with it.

-You'll out gear the usefulness of them prior to unlocking the armor piece, as of right now it only takes 3-4 days with normal play to get your world quests to 835-840 gear drops.
-In 7.2, that's when Tomb is released, the gear that will drop from there will likely start at 870 for raid finder and 885 + for normal with how item level progression goes
-They are way WAY to expensive per piece for orderhall resources on newly dinged alts.
-In 7.2, you're bumping up heroic 5 man and base mythic 5 man item level drops, which in turn will turn around to allow that gear to quickly be equaled or better. With the assumption of this happening as well, it's very likely that the baseline rewards for world quests will go above 850 as well.

The simple fact is on a per character basis, they just are absolutely worthless items. You get them at some point for the transmog unlock, but you never actually upgrade them.

If you want them to be useful, put it on par with raid finder gear and allow mains whom are likely swimming in order resources (I have over 50k) to purchase the item sets outright for their alts.

I don't understand why the order hall sets just can't be replacements for scaling versions of the timeless items from Mists, and the drops from Jungle in WoD.
I don't do any raiding or many mythics on this character and I used a lot of the Class Hall gear for a while. Some of you guys don't understand that not everyone plays the game at a blistering pace and this gear is actually useful to many, currently.

Just stop complaining. It's so tiring. Over nothing. They're literally making it better and you're still complaining.
How about timing down the rep requirements for alts once you finish the set on your main. I plan on leveling a few alts for the artifact skins but getting them geared via rep grind is putting me off to the idea.
Again, the purpose of this set is not to be an answer to not raiding. 860 will keep you afloat, and should be acceptable to get into normal modes for most 7.0-7.1.5 raids, with a bit of a bump needed for something like normal Nighthold.


Missed this part. 860 is by no means going to be acceptable for 7.0 content in 7.2. 860 isn't even seen as acceptable for 7.0/7.1 content in 7.1.
02/01/2017 02:41 PMPosted by Ornyx
to item level 860.

more pennies it's NOTHING 860 nowdays.

At least will you unlock the ENTIRE set already for everyone? I dont see myself farming exalted with the nightfallen on another 11 characters for the shoulders..

The set is still obsolete at this point it's entire work is for mog purposes than anything else honestly.

860 is no way acceptable for any of the pug community and in a guild you can basically get carried from fresh 110 if you're in farming content..

Besides you will be increasing the artifact knowledge which means people have to dump MORE resources.. (AK up to 40) who will waste so many resources into that nowdays?
I'm pretty sure I only used 1 or 2 pieces total with that set and that's even at Legion Launch. Whoever designed those unlocks as a starter set totally missed the mark and wasn't even ballpark close. Then again, a lot of that has occurred in Legion so not surprising.
02/01/2017 03:02 PMPosted by Ornyx
You can easily unlock the helm, wrist, and chest shortly after hitting 110, with the leggings being the next easiest, followed by the belt and gloves.


I don't disagree here. However a lot of those items have a base 810 ilvl.

The only item that seems to be relevant to the time/acquisition ilvl usefulness is the belt.

The 810 items I outgear with basically 1 day's worth of WQs. Then the cost to increase them is so absurdly high - that its not even worth the effort.

On my 12 110's the only item that has lasted longer than a week's worth of gameplay was the belt.

Every other item - while potentially useful at 840 - with a 6500 resource cost - doesn't seem worthwhile.

Especially when the order hall upgrades + AK research were competing for said resources and will be more useful to me in the long-run.

So maybe rather than increasing the cap ilvl - maybe revisit the starting ilvl?
02/01/2017 03:15 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Missed this part. 860 is by no means going to be acceptable for 7.0 content in 7.2. 860 isn't even seen as acceptable for 7.0/7.1 content in 7.1.


In what way is it unacceptable? For raiding? Yeah, but again, that's not the point. Mythics? I just healed a mage in a mythic with 1.4 million health. I can't imagine 860 being that bad comparatively.

It's fine. They're entry level pieces of gear.
02/01/2017 03:13 PMPosted by Thaall
Just stop complaining. It's so tiring. Over nothing. They're literally making it better and you're still complaining.
they're actually not making it better, they're giving it a 10 ilvl boost at a time when everything in the game is getting an ilvl boost of at least that if not more. and that boost requires resources.

I have friends in the same position as you, these cost way too much for them for any worth. they don't want to spend their whole time online doing world quests to afford them when they're useful, and most of the time, they're not useful, cause they can do different world quests and get frequent warforges to the same level with far less time investment.
01/25/2017 01:07 PMPosted by Dyra
Blizzard seems to fail quite a bit with things like that.


Not only fail, but to fail so predictably not once but over and over again, and also be totally unable to change course when it's obvious something is just not working.
02/01/2017 03:18 PMPosted by Thaall
02/01/2017 03:15 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Missed this part. 860 is by no means going to be acceptable for 7.0 content in 7.2. 860 isn't even seen as acceptable for 7.0/7.1 content in 7.1.


In what way is it unacceptable? For raiding? Yeah, but again, that's not the point. Mythics? I just healed a mage in a mythic with 1.4 million health. I can't imagine 860 being that bad comparatively.

It's fine. They're entry level pieces of gear.


Yeah I'm actually shocked by all the disdain for Ornyx's proposed solution. Not all the pieces are readily obtainable when you ding - that is intended. The fact that you'll have like 4 pieces of 860 gear immediately after hitting the level cap should be praised since it's such a huge improvement to how the gear works now.

You're not supposed to buy order hall gear and start raiding Nighthold, so stop suggesting that it's useless otherwise.

As for the rep gating, he said he'd look into it and either way there's still major disregard for those multiple other pieces of gear that are obtained almost effortlessly. Why does it matter if one of the pieces is hard to get?

EDIT: resources being too scarce is a fair complaint however. Blood of sargeras isn't hard to get, but it would be aggravating spending dozens of them to gear up an alt after spending them to get the alt artifact knowledge.
I'll put this as diplomatically as I can:

Why do the developers have so poor an understanding of their own reward structure that they think 860, an item level that is considered too low 7.0 content, is in any way a reasonable starting point for 7.2 content?
We never said this set was intended to get you into 7.2 raids - and that would be silly if it were. But it should be fine for getting into Mythics, the 7.2 dungeon, world quests, etc.
02/01/2017 03:18 PMPosted by Thaall
In what way is it unacceptable?


In the way that it will bar you from entry into any non-heroic 5m, non-LFR content?

02/01/2017 03:18 PMPosted by Thaall
For raiding? Yeah, but again, that's not the point.


He claimed it would be acceptable to get you into 7.0 and 7.1 content, which includes mythic dungeons and normal+ raids. 860 is nowhere in the ballpark of being acceptable for that content now, and there is no reason to expect that it would be acceptable in 7.2 when much higher levels of gear are more readily accessible.

02/01/2017 03:23 PMPosted by Ornyx
We never said this set was intended to get you into 7.2 raids - and that would be silly if it were. But it should be fine for getting into Mythics, the 7.2 dungeon, world quests, etc.


...but it isn't. 860 doesn't get you into mythic dungeons TODAY. Why on earth would they think it would be considered acceptable in 7.2 after they increase the tuning on mythic dungeons to account for the ease of access to 900+ items?
02/01/2017 03:02 PMPosted by Ornyx
...

I think you fundamentally miss the point.

The point isn't that the ilvl was too low, its that the items take so long to acquire they are useless before you can get them.

Exalted rep is just one example.
No, I understand that it does take effort to unlock the full set of gear, but again, it's not meant to be an absolute answer to every slot, but more something to better compliment your gear curve as you work through content.

You can easily unlock the helm, wrist, and chest shortly after hitting 110, with the leggings being the next easiest, followed by the belt and gloves. The shoulders and feet take longer, and I understand that concern (hence why I said I'll check on the gating).

I do think that players should expect to have to put in effort to obtain items, but it's still accurate to say that if you plan on playing and committing to an alt, you can still use these pieces as pretty large upgrades as your acquire other gear.


The order hall sets once you fully get them have a 8 set item bonus. The time it takes to fully upgrade all sets to 840 and get exalted with nightfallen for the 850 shoulders is a long time. My guess is most players won't ever see or use the full 8 set bonus because the item level is too low by the time you unlock it all.

I purposely tried to get the full upgraded set on my human paladin with the speed up racial bonus. By the time I unlocked the shoulders even with rep boosting tricks like the 12th year token, human racial and darkmoon faire, I had multiple titanforge items and even one legendary helm. The way they are acquired is completely strange for time invested compared to other sources.
02/01/2017 03:18 PMPosted by Thaall
02/01/2017 03:15 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Missed this part. 860 is by no means going to be acceptable for 7.0 content in 7.2. 860 isn't even seen as acceptable for 7.0/7.1 content in 7.1.

In what way is it unacceptable? For raiding? Yeah, but again, that's not the point. Mythics? I just healed a mage in a mythic with 1.4 million health. I can't imagine 860 being that bad comparatively.

It's fine. They're entry level pieces of gear.

Then they should be available to entry level players, not players that have been farming world quests for weeks to reach exalted with the Nightfallen.
i don't understand the point of the class hall gear either. I agree it should be rewarded as you are levelling up to help you out. Like as you do your class quests you get a piece of gear, and @ 110 you can pay to upgrade it to 840 (or 860 as you say in thepatch)

as it stands, its really hard to justify using half the set let alone whole. I appreciate it not being an endgame set, but hell its gorgeous let us have fun with it. Unlocking it for transmog only was really annoying.
02/01/2017 03:23 PMPosted by Ornyx
But it should be fine for getting into Mythics, the 7.2 dungeon, world quests, etc.

Try getting into a EN HC with 860 (drops 865) dropping resources which are needed (maybe) for the next artifact knowledge cap is bad. BAD. Period.

I have 11 alts and they are already 855+ by basically playing casual on each of them.. unless you already a base of 860 by buying them with gold I dont see any problem on that. Still my point stands regarding unlocking for all the accounts by now..

Farming to exalted with the nightfallen and other things for the mog purpose is still not good.

Even if you dont need resources for the next AK cap I would advise people to not waste their resources on it.
I think the set is a good example of a problem I often see in legion.

The stick is too long for the baby carrot at the end.
02/01/2017 02:41 PMPosted by Ornyx
If you're the kind of player who only does World Quests and World Bosses, this upgrade should help complement your armor roster, and may provide a few pieces of gear for you. If you're leveling alts, this upgrade will provide a good way to boost your character's item level once you hit 110 and jump into 7.2 content.

Order resources?

Right now it takes 500 to upgrade a piece that comes at 810 to a mere 820. It takes 2000 to upgrade from 820 to 830 and 4000 to upgrade from 830 to 840.

Once you hit 110, you're pretty starved for Order Resources (even with a follower +150 assuming you always have them available and assigned as bodyguard). But you need 1000 to start Tier 3 of your class hall abilities, and can see that over the next few weeks you'll need 10000, 12500 and 15000. When you're looking at those, and the first couple pieces of your class hall set start at 810 (helm, wrists) and would cost you 6500 EACH to get to 840, guess which one is going to be prioritized?

Also, if a 110 is only going to do WQs and world bosses, then they aren't going to get all of the pieces anyway (notably not the legs which require dungeons, but possibly also not the chest if their campaign required dungeons). It's also going to take some time to get to the various reputation requirements (gloves, boots, shoulders).

It would probably be a "cheaper" time investment to get 100% crafted gear with optimal stats but no quirky set bonuses which already can be upgraded to 865, and farm the bloods (WQ + gathering) than to get the current class pieces all to 840, and if the price continues to go up with 7.2 at the same time as releasing two new abilities that will take around 50k OR combined ... can you see how bothering with the class set doesn't look worth it at all?

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