Mythic Guldan too hard???

General Discussion
02/15/2017 10:45 AMPosted by Giscõ
Everybody keeps talking about AP, but at the very least AP has a set amount of dungeons and youre done.

For top end players chasing after BiS legos that make or break a spec is a serious problem. Get bad ones and it doesnt matter how much AP you have, time to reroll.


Luckily that doesn't apply to at least 95% of players.
02/15/2017 10:54 AMPosted by Gauge
02/15/2017 10:45 AMPosted by Giscõ
Everybody keeps talking about AP, but at the very least AP has a set amount of dungeons and youre done.

For top end players chasing after BiS legos that make or break a spec is a serious problem. Get bad ones and it doesnt matter how much AP you have, time to reroll.


Luckily that doesn't apply to at least 95% of players.


It applies to just as many people as the AP grind does. If that 10% damage gain is too much to pass up then so are the gains from having good legendaries, which can be just as much easily.

Bashing your head against another 500 dungeons in the *chance* that you get the good legendaries isnt any better than the first 500 dungeons you did for AP.
i only saw 3. MW, SNF, From Scratch.

MW has been going at it for 12 years. Many of the old top guilds already quit before this expansion. So it's not related to Gul'Dan for sure.

Some of it is probably related to the AP grind.

Still it's 3 guilds and there has been 2+ top guilds who quit like almost every expansion.

It has alot to do with leadership also. It's not an easy task leading these groups and it takes considerably more effort compared to being just one of the raiders.

Also more than half players in those groups will be joining other guilds or merging etc.
It's not Nighthold or Gul'dan, it's the systems of this expansion that are excessively grind-y, random, and punishing for offspecs and alts.
-- AP
-- Legendaries
-- Professions (to a lesser extent)
I've been raiding since MC release, and I can honestly say I've considered quitting raiding over the current state.

Sure I've quit before, but those have always been due to IRL situations. My mother being diagnosed with cancer, having to go to the police academy, moving cross country, promotions which have changed working hours. Raiding has never come first, but I've never quit raiding because I've tired of it or disliked the commitment.

This xpac, howeve,r is insane. In the past there's been an initial start of xpac grind (usually a few weeks) where you have to sink time to get ready to raid. This is fine, this is normal and has gradualized between xpacs as design is refined. Beyond that initial investment, 95% of time "dedicated" to raiding has been.. In the raid itself, killing bosses, at set times.

Titanforging and AP has slaughtered that concept.

My BiS trinket is out of Emerald Nightmare, but it has to titanforge upto mythic / heroic NH levels to be BiS. At similar ilevel to current gear it's amazing, so I'm forced to re-clear outdated content in the hopes of not just getting this item, but having it roll correctly on the slot machine.

Plenty of other BiS gear comes from 5 mans, but again Titanforging is involved. So I'm forced to run high level keystones of the same dungeons, over and over again, in the hopes of seeing the correct item and then seeing it get the rolls I need on it, which is a minuscule chance.

Then there's Artifact Power itself.

I have to run world quests and never ending dungeons to reach my maximum raid potential, the potential which cutting edge raiding is designed on. Currently it takes several hundred dungeon runs to do this. Come 7.2, with maxed out AP, it's going to take over 1,000 10+ keystones to reach full "potential" in your artifact.

The systems in place work in diablo because it's end game is different, but in something like wow it's the most mind boggling !@#$ I've ever seen. I would've quit over it but I managed to find a very good guild which doesn't mandate it as much as others, so I'm settling for now. We'll see what 7.2 holds.

EDIT:

Oh, and the legendary system.

Get bad rng and only utility / low dps increase legendaries? Gratz, you're hundreds of thousands of dps behind someone who got lucky. This has always happened (to an extent) with gear, but this so much worse. Imagine if you could only kill the boss which drops your BiS trinket once every 3-5 months, and you've got a good idea of how retarded the system is.

I personally think the legendary system is the most damaging of the stupidity trifecta, but it's also the one which (arguably) requires the least amount of time invested.
Its less about boss difficulty and more about all the insane amount of grinding they have to deal with now.

Usually only the GMs and maybe officers of these guilds actually live off the game (think Slootbag and Sco for example), assuming any members generate a revenue at all from it.

Its not a sustainable situation for the rest of their players to be stuck playing 12 hours a day grinding their eyes out to maintain 3 alts on top of raiding 6-7days a week for multiple weeks during progression.

Content being released at a faster pace also hurts them. Before a lot of these players were used to only have a progression "crush" period once every 6-8 months or so, a lot of them could schedule stuff with their jobs and whatnot to be available for it (a bit easier to do on EU apparently from what i heard). Once progression was done, they could go back to their normal lives and deal with 1-2 nights a week of farm for a few months, lots of them aren't playing much more than the average player during these periods.

Now with the new steady stream of content, they don't have that leeway at all and have to deal with progression periods much more often than probably some can afford to do.

At least its how i see it using what knowledge of top end raiding i have.
02/15/2017 09:54 AMPosted by Nagasis
Been on MMO champion today and seen about 4 or 5 top end guilds announce that they were done with hardcore raiding. Do you guys think Gul'dan had anything to do with it or that they're just taking a break until ToS?


It have to do with the AP grind that's currently being tested on 7.2. Basically te get each new level or points in your weapons it will take 4 to 5x as much AP as now. And after traits 24 any traits you have now are being refunded as there are new tratits.

I don't blame them it takes them a long time to grind to max level and now this reset. I can see that this is being unfair to them. You just can't changing the system just because someone reach the goal you intended they wont' reach it.

Is like running on a trendmill with no end in sight.
Kind of the price for giving the rest of us (99% not in the world first race] something to always be working toward and progressing with. For most players the AP and mythic+ system is perfect for slowly progressing through the game (the legendary system can diaf).

So, should the system be changed to make it easier on world first guilds at the expense of more casuals? This tends to lead back to the raid or die system present in WoD where people were crying for things to do and ways to progress outside of raiding. Legion gave us that, but has a negative impact on the top who need to optimize to an insane level to clear things first.
02/15/2017 11:31 AMPosted by Argorwal
Kind of the price for giving the rest of us (99% not in the world first race] something to always be working toward and progressing with. For most players the AP and mythic+ system is perfect for slowly progressing through the game (the legendary system can diaf).

So, should the system be changed to make it easier on world first guilds at the expense of more casuals? This tends to lead back to the raid or die system present in WoD where people were crying for things to do and ways to progress outside of raiding. Legion gave us that, but has a negative impact on the top who need to optimize to an insane level to clear things first.


We've had other xpacs (Wrath, MoP, TBC, basically everything not WoD) which had good raid content and enough to keep 'casuals' interested.

The current AP, Titanforging, and legendary systems damage casuals as well. Quite frankly the current break-neck pace of raid releases would be enough to keep most of the player base interested even without the ungodly grinds they've implemented as well.
02/15/2017 11:51 AMPosted by Galithdrael
02/15/2017 11:31 AMPosted by Argorwal
Kind of the price for giving the rest of us (99% not in the world first race] something to always be working toward and progressing with. For most players the AP and mythic+ system is perfect for slowly progressing through the game (the legendary system can diaf).

So, should the system be changed to make it easier on world first guilds at the expense of more casuals? This tends to lead back to the raid or die system present in WoD where people were crying for things to do and ways to progress outside of raiding. Legion gave us that, but has a negative impact on the top who need to optimize to an insane level to clear things first.


We've had other xpacs (Wrath, MoP, TBC, basically everything not WoD) which had good raid content and enough to keep 'casuals' interested.

The current AP, Titanforging, and legendary systems damage casuals as well. Quite frankly the current break-neck pace of raid releases would be enough to keep most of the player base interested even without the ungodly grinds they've implemented as well.


Wrath had heroic dungeons, dailies, and...? Your non raiding gear plateaud at heroic dungeons with 1-2 pieces of badges of Valor gear. This culminated with the 3 ICC heroics.

Cata was the same. Heroic dungeons, dailies, and eventually raid finder with DS. Still no alternative to raiding for good gear. Molten front was the only non-instanced content added the entire expansion.

MoP was better with heroics, dailies, then Isle of thunder and TI. You still hit a plateau on gear pretty quickly with no alternative to raising or power increase.

Now we have AP and progressing your artifact, and a completely new dungeon system allowing for good gear and hard 5 man content with power rewards. People have been asking for a way to keep 5 man content hard and relevant for ages (challenge modes didn't reward power) and legion finally delivered.

It really sounds like people want less to do so they can "cross things off their list" and not actually just play the game and have fun.
02/15/2017 09:54 AMPosted by Nagasis
Do you guys think Gul'dan had anything to do with it


No chance. This is just the normal cycle of events that happens in every expansion. Guilds dissolve, players move on - either out of the game or to new guilds. I'm not even going to speculate on the reasons, there are too many possibilities to list. But a single boss fight? It's never that simple.
02/15/2017 12:10 PMPosted by Argorwal
It really sounds like people want less to do so they can "cross things off their list" and not actually just play the game and have fun.


The paradigm has definitely shifted. I remember back in Dragon Soul I actually went from having two level 85s to having six, and I raided a combination of normal and heroic on all of them.

Once you capped valor, had your tier from the raid and had any pieces you could purchase from the vendor, the only thing you could do was your once a week chance at better gear from the raid itself.

It was during this model that all this 'multiple alts, split clears' and so on became the standard for high end raiding. It was easy to do so. I'd cap my valor and conquest in an evening on my warrior and spend the rest of the six days working on alts. Other than raid night there was nothing I could actually do to increase my warrior's power, and I could only run that raid once per week other than LFR (which was only useful because it granted 250 VP per wing)

The paradigm has shifted. Even running around half-heartedly doing world quests for AP will increase my power by a small %. Running dungeons can reward me with BiS gear if they are a high enough plus or if I get a good Titanforge. I can run the raids on separate difficulties each week. If I kill Mythic Skorpyron I'm not locked to anything on Heroic. Even PvP gives some AP.

It seems that these changes are intended to slow down these top guilds and make having everything maxed out a near impossible task. Having full BiS is now impossible with TF and random sockets. They will need to roll with the changes and come up with a new model to be competitive because the way they've always done it doesn't work in this strange new world.

In some ways it levels the playing field somewhat, so it may end up being a good thing for the health of the raiding scene in general. It may cause people used to doing it the old way to burn up but new guilds will rise to the top and the cycle will continue.
It's supposed to be hard.
He's Gul'dan for petes sake! He should be hard.
02/15/2017 10:02 AMPosted by Melaroi
From what I understand it's not that Gul'dan is hard, it's that to 'remain competitive' they 'must farm AP' which means they have to play this game like a job even harder than they already do.

I'll echo a sentiment I've seen about this subject and say that I'm not going to believe that they are quitting until the next raid comes out and they actually aren't participating.

This is true, but most of the top 10 guilds already treat it as a job. You should read Method's recruitment post on their website. This is nothing new. Just it is that time some guilds call it quits or still raid but not push for World 1st or top 10 etc. This has happened plenty of times in the past and will happen again in the future.
02/15/2017 09:54 AMPosted by Nagasis
Been on MMO champion today and seen about 4 or 5 top end guilds announce that they were done with hardcore raiding. Do you guys think Gul'dan had anything to do with it or that they're just taking a break until ToS?


Do you have a link what you were reading ?
02/15/2017 09:54 AMPosted by Nagasis
Been on MMO champion today and seen about 4 or 5 top end guilds announce that they were done with hardcore raiding. Do you guys think Gul'dan had anything to do with it or that they're just taking a break until ToS?
They are tired of dedicating 40+ hours a week to a highly volatile scene (the world first race) just to consistently be, in their eyes, mediocre.

To not even kill it in the top 5 while putting in the hours and dedication they do to this game is brutal.
This AP system has been a joke. I've played a lot by normal standards and mine still isn't maxed. Combine that system with the horrible rng with legendaries and the fact that some are so critical to certain specs.... you've got a recipe for frustration.
It's not even the AP that's bad. It's the RNG Titanforged gear and RNG Legendaries that make it tedious for the top end guilds. Getting lucky or unlucky with certain pieces could cost em the fight.
02/15/2017 10:21 AMPosted by Kéres
I know several of the teams dropping out are doing so because the grind is becoming too much.

I can't say I really disagree. Grinding AP (which will be picking up again in 7.2 when they add new traits and AK levels). Grinding M+ dungeons for titanforge. Grinding everything for legendaries.

I can totally understand where they're coming from.


But isn't this what the hardcore crowd wanted? For two expansions now I've seen hardcore raiders talk about how the game is too casual, and back in the day you had to WORK AND GRIND for your achievements, but the devs caved and made it Hello Kitty Island.

It would seem that a long drawn out grind isn't that great, which is why WoW strayed from that idea. Now they're back to it and hardcore players are quitting.

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