Hunter and Pet - Soloing Guide Updated 7.15

Hunter
09/21/2017 06:09 PMPosted by Killval
This is well done and a lot of effort put into as one can clearly see... but it feels like a contradiction in the beginning where it states "Ferocity is rarely used for any 5 man, 5 man heroic, or raid tier content in terms of soloing" . If this guide is regarding soloing content such as quests and out in the world content why would 5 man and raid content apply to it? Quite a contradiction indeed.
The guide in general is written with more challenging content in mind.

For most quests, you can honestly run just about any spec or talent and it will work without issue. If you're wanting to solo something like Nythendra in Emerald Nightmare, then your spec, talents, pet choice, etc, will matter a lot more.

With that said, the contents of the guide still apply to general questing as well with some small (yet important) difference, such as growl working on mobs out in the world (dors not work on bosses).

Hope this helps clarify it a bit for you friend!
For Nyth, using a tenacity pet+Aspect of the Beast for the dmg reduction on KC is essential. The healing legs are good, although if you don't have them Prydaz or the healing helm could work too.

For the mage tower challenge, tenacity+Aspect of the Beast are highly recommended, the healing legs/Prydaz/healing helm make things a lot easier but aren't absolutely required.
------------ Talents --------------
Barrage – . . . . It is a good choice for any boss with an extreme focus on adds and quickly clearing them.

No. Barrage is a net loss in virtually every situation. It's potential for bad pulls is very, very high. Except for masses of truly trivial trash, something you won't find in raids or high-end instances anyway, there is absolutely no use for this other than to tag things in open world questing that other people will then kill for you (think Sentinax farming in Broken Shore).

Barrage was once a go-to talent in conjunction with Sidewinders, but as of 7.1.5, no more. The changes in 7.1.5 to the Vulnerability mechanics, an announced nerf of the ability itself, and the "fix" of the pitch problem rendered this horrible talent even less potentially useful than it started out as.
10/16/2017 04:46 PMPosted by Ehiztari
No. Barrage is a net loss in virtually every situation. It's potential for bad pulls is very, very high. Except for masses of truly trivial trash, something you won't find in raids or high-end instances anyway, there is absolutely no use for this other than to tag things in open world questing that other people will then kill for you (think Sentinax farming in Broken Shore).

Barrage was once a go-to talent in conjunction with Sidewinders, but as of 7.1.5, no more. The changes in 7.1.5 to the Vulnerability mechanics, an announced nerf of the ability itself, and the "fix" of the pitch problem rendered this horrible talent even less potentially useful than it started out as.
The guide isn't focused on DPS. It's focused on soloing dungeon and raid content, both current and past. Some of which, involves tons of adds that can end up far too spread out compared to the other options.

Quick edit: I do have an update in the works, could see about making that part more clear.
If this guide isn't focused on DPS for a DPS-only class, what on Earth is it doing here? There are no circumstances when Barrage is a good idea other than as a tag-and-run ability for zero-sum mobs in contested areas (like the murloc village or Sentinax farming in Broken Shore).

Barrage was nerfed in 7.1.5. This guide was apparently written for (or at least the title was updated for) that. It makes me wonder if you looked at the patch notes, any of the reputable How Not To Be A Huntard sites, or anything else before writing it.

"Spread Out" isn't going to make a difference. Barrage is still forward-cone only, just like multi-shot, although you can rotate as you auto-fire your BB-gun-like attack if you want to pull the room. It reaches a bit farther, but the damage it does borders on being trivial. It's a pull, and an expensive one at that.

If it were a spell or ability, yes, there might be some limited times when it would be useful, but to exclude the far more capable tier six talents, A Murder of Crows or Volley, in favor of this is just goofy.

Even in a mass-mob situation like the recurring imps-on-the-little-island Broken Shore world quest, if the mobs in the scrum are small enough to kill with Barrage, they're not so dangerous that you need to kill them all in one attack action. You've got time to take them out with Multi-Shot and Volley. If they're not, Barrage isn't going to save you.

Volley for quantity-heavy situations (consistently 4 or more mobs - no DPS check in a single-target fight). A Murder of Crows for all others. Period. The math on Volley is that it does slightly less than 1/3 of the damage than A Murder of Crows over time INCLUDING THE DOWN TIME for A Murder of Crows if you fail to kill your target in 15 seconds and it goes for the full 60-second cooldown.

I see far too many folks running around blasting away (pointlessly) with Barrage in World Boss fights or at the Rare Elites. I hope this forum thread isn't why.
02/01/2017 07:07 PMPosted by Lazyguide
Marksmanship (MM) – This spec focuses mostly on the hunter doing damage through his or her ranged attacks. MM has in the past been the default soloing spec however due to its extreme emphasis on the hunter, with almost zero focus on their pets as well lacking any threat generation for their pet, MM become the weakest spec to try and solo as.

Good Lord, have you even played this spec?

Marksman has virtually the same pet aggro management that Beast Mastery does.

Misdirection to move aggro to the pet (or a grouped ally) from the Hunter.

Charge (for Tenacity pets) - which isn't character-spec specific at all - it's pet-spec specific and Marksman Hunters who choose to have pets can choose any pet spec they want.

Thunderstomp (when available) - again, a pet-ability not dependent on Hunter spec.

Solo questing, Marksman sans Lone Wolf is little different from Beast Mastery except the damage tends to come more from the Hunter than the Pet.

Having a pet as Marksman, especially solo, means you have a pocket tank with you at all times. Between your pet's Last Stand, your Exhilaration, and Play Dead, pet threat and aggro management is still an active part of non-Lone Wolf Marksman Hunters.

I leveled two hunters in Legion from 1 to 100 as Marksman and switched to Beast Mastery only after that.

Lordy, I hope folks reading this don't mistake volume of text for knowledge about the subject being written about.
------------ Talents --------------

Tier Four Talents [removed gibberish description of the tier]

One With The Pack - This talent increases the chance of your dire beast [sic] spell resetting by an additional 30%, bringing your chance up to 50%. Overall your chances for resets will be low still but will make for more exciting gameplay.

Bestial Fury – This talent is straight forward [sic] and increases the damage bonus from your bestial wrath [sic] by 15%. Never a bad option.

Blink Strikes – Personally my favorite talent in this row. It increases the damage dealt by your pet by 100% at all times, as well giving your pet a passive ability to teleport to your enemy once every twenty seconds. This can come in handy for mobility fights as well as to simply avoid bad pathing / glitchy pathing with your pet.

"My personal favorite" and "this is a good idea" seem to be at odds with one another. Giving up substantial DPS boosts in favor of this is ill-advised. The aphorism, "You can't DPS if you're dead" applies to mobs as well as players.

One With the Pack feeds into the "Stomp" build which requires some high-level gear to rise above the effectiveness of the "Frenzy" build, so unless you have T19 gear and BIS Legendaries, stick with Bestial Fury.

Tier Seven - The most important row. There is really only one choice here, however I will go over all three options.

Stampede - On a three minute cooldown, this talent is good for fights when there is not a lot of damage on your pet but there are two or more nonmoving [sic] targets.

Killer Cobra - Each time you use cobra shot [sic] while beastial wrath [sic] is active, your kill command [sic] will reset. Ultimately, this is a nice bonus to any burst potential you might need.

Aspect of the Beast - The single most important talent for soloing currently. Assuming your pet is tenacity spec’d, every time you use kill command [sic] your pet takes 30% less damage for 6 seconds (right when you can cast kill command [sic] again). Ferocity provides a bleed [sic] while cunning provides a speed boost for your pet. Ultimately, having your pet spec’d as tenacity with this talent will make your life much easier and is the best possible talent you can take for soloing.

There is really only one choice here....

No. Just no. This, again, feeds into the Stomp build which is quite gear-centric. No one who has that gear is likely to be coming here to look for advice on how to play. Beginning Hunters should stick to the Frenzy build and go with Killer Cobra.

Particularly with the Tenacity pets, they already have Last Stand. With the 100% heal from Exhilaration and the Hunter's pet battle-rez, giving up DPS in favor of MORE tankery here is ill-advised.

Honestly, the "I know all and will now deign to share with you my immense wisdom" tone of this has got to be responsible for a great deal of Huntardary in the world if folks are actually doing what this guy says.

My advice? Stop reading this thread. I don't think this guy has any idea about the reality of being a Hunter.

Clearly he wants to write (although he could use a bit of guidance on grammar, spelling, and form) and clearly he put a great deal of effort into this, but so much of it not only is wrong now, it was wrong in 7.1.5.

Effort doesn't equal quality. This is bad advice in many cases.

I'm going to do one more commentary on the abysmal BM Hunter rotation advice he gives and then I'll stop.

I'm not trying to be trollish here. This isn't a matter of me just disagreeing with someone to disagree or spark controversy. This guy is misleading people in a post that was given "pinned" status and writing as if he knows what he's talking about when clearly, in many areas, he does not.
--- Rotations and Play Styles ---

1) Use Misdirect (if BM or MM) and Mend Pet on your pet before pulling.
2) Use DPS CDs as soon as possible to generate the most threat for your pet.
3) Keep mend pet up at all times, use misdirect as needed. For BM, you may use MD as an additional defense CD for your pet.
4) Use pet CDs as necessary.

BM) Along with keeping up with the general rules of thumb for each spec, for BM you need to be able to use KC (kill command) every time it’s off of CD as much as possible. Any extra focus should be used on cobra shot but never at the expense of missing kill command. Kill command will grant your pet an additional 30% reduced damage with aspect of the beast. It will also heal you for a portion of the damage dealt. Use your dire beast (or dire frenzy) every time it is off CD and make sure to pool your focus for BW.

Oh heck no.

Burning through every DPS cool down at every opportunity doesn't define a "rotation" so much as it defines "I have no idea how these thing interact with each other, but I want to look busy."

As to Misdirection, Growl, and Pet Mend:

Pet targeting, pet behavior, Misdirection, and Growl (if available) should be managed by inserting this code in your attack macros and always, always, always putting your Tank (if you have one) in your focus:

/petassist
/petattack
/petautocaston Growl
/petautocastoff [group,@focus,help,nodead]Growl
/use [group,@focus,help,nodead][@pet,exists,nodead]Misdirection

Do not spam Mend Pet needlessly. It burns a GCD and will result in reduced DPS if you do.

I'm working from the perspective of a Beast Mastery Hunter here. For more on actual rotations for MM or SV, look to Icy Veins or other reputable how-to sites.

This assumes you have followed the Frenzy build and also that you took Killer Cobra. It's safe to assume that if you already have T19 d2 gear that you don't likely need to be coming here to see how to play a Beast Mastery Hunter.
Opener (Single Target):
Potion of Prolonged Power
A Murder of Crows
Bestial Wrath
Dire Frenzy
Kill Command
Titan's Thunder
Dire Frenzy (first one should be down to about 4 seconds by now)
Aspect of the Wild

Abbreviations used here (just so it fits better on the screen):
AMOC = A Murder of Crows
AOTW = Aspect of the Wild
CS = Cobra Shot
BW = Bestial Wrath
KC = Kill Command
TT = Titan's Thunder
CD = Cool Down
Exp = Expires / Expiration Time
Rotation (Single Target):
IF not CS CD and BW Buff UP and KC CD>3 and Focus>90 THEN
CS (resets KC CD when BW Buff is UP)
ELSEIF not AMOC CD and (BW Buff UP and Exp>=15) or (BW CD>30) THEN
AMOC (hold AMOC up to 30 secs to synch with BW)
ELSEIF not TT CD THEN
TT
ELSEIF DF Count > 0 and ((no DF Buff) or (DF Buff Exp<4)) THEN
DF
ELSEIF not AOTW CD THEN
AOTW
ELSEIF not BW CD AND ((not KC CD) or (KC CD<3)) THEN
BW
ELSEIF not KC CD THEN
KC
ELSEIF not CS CD and Focus>90 THEN
CS
ELSE
-- DON'T DO ANYTHING
END

For Multi-Target the opener is identical, but use Multi-Shot instead of Kill Command there.

The multi-target rotation depends on whether "multi-target" means 2-4 targets or 5+ targets.

For 2-4, when you get to the Cobra Shot at the bottom of the rotation (not the one at the top) substitute Multi-Shot (should not happen more than once every four seconds).

For 5+, move Multi-Shot to where Kill Command is and move Kill Command to where the bottom-slot Cobra Shot is, but in no case should you fire Multi-Shot more than once every 4 seconds. The purpose of Multi-Shot is not to blast away at mobs yourself, but to trigger Beast Cleave (which has a 4 second duration).

Most especially, don't simply blow through Focus with Cobra Shot at ever GCD that doesn't offer any other choice. You want your Focus to be near maximum every time you are about to pop Bestial Wrath and near minimum as that buff Expires.
If this guide isn't focused on DPS for a DPS-only class, what on Earth is it doing here?


Again, it's for soloing dungeon and raid content, and as I've said there's an update in the works. The information in the guide isn't focused on DPS, because that isn't the goal to the guide.

Some players enjoy soloing raid bosses like Nythendra, or going into some mythic + dungeons and doing them alone. Some items or talent combinations that would be absolutely poor for normal raiding or general DPS work well in other scenarios.

Roots of Shal'drassil as an example is normally a terrible legendary to use for DPS. And yet it is one of the best for soloing content as it gives the hunter sustain.

Do you have something constructive to add, as again, this isn't focused on dealing the most damage.
I've had many constructive things to add, most notably the rotation information and many corrections to things you've said about your choices that flat are not true.

Nothing I've said here is about hard-core raiding, just general, intelligent play of the class.

I have difficulty understanding how anyone could purport to teach the class and express the opinions you have, especially as authoritative ones.

My apologies, but I love this class and I hate seeing terrible advice propagated as evidence-based information.

And again, this is a DPS only class. Everything about it, the rotation, talent selections, even survivability issues, should all keep that in mind. If you're NOT giving advice geared towards maintaining high DPS, what in Groo's name are you doing?
10/17/2017 10:30 AMPosted by Ehiztari
If you're NOT giving advice geared towards maintaining high DPS, what in Groo's name are you doing?


Soloing, especially current-level raid content, almost always requires a different setup (gear/talents/pet spec) than a normal raid dps setup does.

Current dps setup requires a ferocity-spec pet for max dps (if BM or SV).
Do you actually think a ferocity pet has a snowball's chance in hell of tanking Nythendra for you if you try to solo it? You'd get similar results trying to do the mage tower challenge with a ferocity pet. Meaning, your pet would get eaten in short order.

Also, the Roots legs may not be in the top two for raid dps, but they ARE in the top two for soloing current-level raid content.

The thread title specifically states SOLOING guide, not max raid dps guide.
I've had many constructive things to add, most notably the rotation information and many corrections to things you've said about your choices that flat are not true.
You have criticized me. That's different than constructive criticism. Sitting there and insulting me in every post you make while trying to correct the guide and still posting rotations that wouldn't work for what this guide is written for.

Do you know what your rotation should be if you're soloing Nythendra? Elerethe Renferal? Mythic HoV for those who might like to tame Fenryr? Because what you posted for those purposes is wrong.

My apologies, but I love this class and I hate seeing terrible advice propagated as evidence-based information.
I can see you are passionate about the class. Not trying to argue that you are not. But you have missed the point of this guide.

And again, this is a DPS only class. Everything about it, the rotation, talent selections, even survivability issues, should all keep that in mind. If you're NOT giving advice geared towards maintaining high DPS, what in Groo's name are you doing?
Dps isn't everything, especially for soloing more difficult content. More DPS makes sense if we're talking just killing things out in the world where everything dies in 1-3 hits anyway, or on Argus where growl actually works on the mobs and having more DPS lets you safely kill the elites faster.

It does not make sense though to purely be speccing or gearing for just DPS if you're looking to get into soloing more difficult content. Which is what the guide is trying to help players with. You are overvaluing DPS essentially.

I have older videos posted towards the end of the guide, most of which were from Cataclysm when the guide was originally written back in 2010. Due to the forums being bugged, I had to get a mod to delete the old stickied thread to create a new one this year. You can watch some of them and notice that even back then, my rotations and talents absolutely were not correct for maximizing DPS. I have never claimed this guide is for maximizing DPS, because it never has been.

Instead of letting this thread get clogged up with arguing, you could add me on battlenet if you want or add me on discord.
Only after digging into your "advice" deeper did I criticize you and frankly, the criticism is justifiable.

You should not be writing Hunter how-to guides if this is the depth of your understanding.

I've done what I can do correct the abysmally wrong information you've presented.

If you're messing about in places where "everything dies in 1-3 hit anyway" then nothing you're presenting here matters.

If you're not going to address the primary purpose of the class, please just stop writing about it.

If you think what you did for "rotations" is remotely competent, we have nothing to talk about, by the way.

This is little more than a lengthy "Choices I made in my Hunter" thread, given false credibility by the "pin" from whoever makes those decisions.

"I'll update it soon" gives me little hope for better quality. Much of what you posted in this "7.15" thread was out of date for 7.1.5.

Add to that a pervasive lack of discipline in the writing, both from stylistic and technical perspectives, and I'd say "Don't quit your day job."

Now, if you want to collaborate on a replacement hunter's guide? I'm all up for that.

But this? This is an embarrassment.

Kaldara#11970 If you're interested, we can hook up there and work out from there on other channels (I have a Guild Discord channel or we can use Twitch).

My apologies if I came across as blunt. I have only one thing to say about that and I'll let you Google it's implications: ENTJ

See you in the world! Hopefully it'll be back up soon.
Thanks for the guide, OP! I just picked my hunter back up, and this is exactly what I was looking for.

I know these posts are a month old, but are you illiterate Ehiztari? This is a soloing guide. When you are soloing, you are no longer a DPS class - you are a "do literally everything because you don't have any other classes" class.

I've been going through old dungeons/raids on my rogue, and by far the biggest obstacle is survival. There are some encounters where I've had no choice but to try to burst the boss down as quickly as possible, like Valiona and Theralion in Bastion of Twilight or Blood Queen in ICC, but for the most part it's impractical. My only choice in most encounters is to find a way to not die, then just patiently wear the boss down.

Reaching a point where your self-healing and damage mitigation are enough to offset the lack of a tank and healer is critical to soloing.
I haven't seen a stranger series of posts on these forums than the walls of text Ehi posted O_o

Like does he not realise it's about soloing old raids... You don't run your regular DPS rotation when soloing.

So bizarre lol
. . .it's about soloing old raids.

Solo play and "soloing old raids" aren't nearly the same thing. I'm not sure where you pulled that from, but you might want to wipe it off before you lay it down anywhere.
10/17/2017 11:03 AMPosted by Darkynhalvos
The thread title specifically states SOLOING guide, not max raid dps guide.

My apologies for not addressing this earlier. I missed it when it first posted and I've been busy dealing with a few other issues.

To answer your question, no I am not illiterate, but just because something *says* it's a soloing guide doesn't mean it has any value as one.

Somewhere, someone saw a mountain of advice and rather than evaluate it as to whether or not it was good advice, they simply mistook the volume of it for its value and pinned it here.

Solo play or otherwise, much of the advice given here is just plain wrong.

Burning a cooldown on keeping Mend Pet up constantly? No.

Burning every DPS cooldown at every opportunity? No.

The Barrage recommendation (particularly with the 7.1.5 nerf)? No.

It's a fluff piece, period, with little or negative actual value to Hunters.

If anything, solo play requires BETTER attention to managing your resources (time, cooldowns, and the potential for synergy between abilities).

Lazy's advice here is bad, just plain bad. He even admits as much at least once, although he blames it on not having updated this in some time and the issues I raised were wrong as of the time he wrote it for 7.1.5, so there's that.

We are a DPS class, period.

Solo or in groups, be they legacy, timewalking, raiding, or mythics, that's our strength.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, in this thread provided by the OP effectively addresses how to make the most of it and much of what he says will actively reduce your effectiveness in the world.

What about that says "This is a worthy solo-play guide" to you?
Perhaps it's just a misunderstanding, Ehiztari. This guide is literally talking about soloing raid and dungeon content. That's why in my numerous posts I made to you previously I brought up examples of raid bosses. It's why I bring up using mend pet and what not on CD. Obviously if you're just out "in the world" this guide will not mean much.

I even even eluded to that by bringing up mythic HoV and two bosses in EN which you missed I think previously.
11/13/2017 09:27 AMPosted by Lazyguide
Perhaps it's just a misunderstanding, Ehiztari. This guide is literally talking about soloing raid and dungeon content. That's why in my numerous posts I made to you previously I brought up examples of raid bosses. It's why I bring up using mend pet and what not on CD. Obviously if you're just out "in the world" this guide will not mean much.

I even even eluded to that by bringing up mythic HoV and two bosses in EN which you missed I think previously.


How many more Legion raid bosses do you think have a chance to die to hunter soloing before Legion ends?

Probably not many from me, since I don't have the "leet skillz" for cutting edge solos. Only did Nythendra so far :P
11/13/2017 12:54 PMPosted by Darkynhalvos
11/13/2017 09:27 AMPosted by Lazyguide
Perhaps it's just a misunderstanding, Ehiztari. This guide is literally talking about soloing raid and dungeon content. That's why in my numerous posts I made to you previously I brought up examples of raid bosses. It's why I bring up using mend pet and what not on CD. Obviously if you're just out "in the world" this guide will not mean much.

I even even eluded to that by bringing up mythic HoV and two bosses in EN which you missed I think previously.


How many more Legion raid bosses do you think have a chance to die to hunter soloing before Legion ends?

Probably not many from me, since I don't have the "leet skillz" for cutting edge solos. Only did Nythendra so far :P
Both Nythendra and Elethre Renferal are soloable. I also believe we can solo Chronomatic. My best attempts I can get normal chronomatic anomoly to about 25%, and I haven't done any real raiding for about two months so I know I've fallen behind in gear from where I should be.

Depending on how much the gear from Antorus inflates our stats, I believe there will be the potential to take on a couple other fights. I could see normal Gul'Dan being possible. Mionelol already managed to solo him as a DH, and I don't believe he has any mechanic that makes it impossible for us to do as a pet class.

We'll have to wait and see though! I remember when durendil managed to solo bosses that I never thought would be possible so someone could always surprise me!

Edit: I have also been thinking of seeing if Illy'gonoth (probably butchered the spelling there) would be possible. The pet should be able to tank the big adds without issue, the problem would be whether the hunter can survive the damage from the tentacles. I suspect it should be possible, assuming you clear all of the bloods before moving inside to kill the eye.

Have you tried Nythendra on heroic yet by chance?

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