Very little if any class changes so far?

Class Development
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A fair few PTR builds in now with raid testing starting up in the next few days and yet I've seen nothing on class issues that are still present since Legions launch.

So many classes are so close to being amazing fun as opposed to good fun. WW is a great example of a great base idea let down by a fairly poor talent tree often leading to one option being better than the rest and the SEF design was quite the disaster being a nice idea with too many bugs and downsides to the player having 45% reduced damage.

Fury warrior has talents that should obviously be baseline. Eg inner rage, massacre as without them the majority the spec is not fun. But such simple changes are just not being made in the name of 'player choice' having to give up something to get something else should not result in what is the fury warrior execute phase without massacre.

MW got zero attention into 7.1.5 stuck with abilities and optimal stats that just don't mesh. Soothing mist with no interaction other than a channeled HoT, essence font raining supreme without utilizing it's interaction with mastery because of mana costs and efficiency. A lack luster talent tree pair with an ill fitting artifact talent and not to mention effuse not healing enough for it's mana cost and is essentially never used.

My personal gripe with Brm where running lower content feels as if I'm taking everybit of damage unable to effectively mitigate. While on the flip side I can bring my Prot Warrior and take no damage. I know it might sound a bit strange to complain about overgeared content but it's always been the case as a tank that in low damage content you can blow through the place, Brm doesn't have that this time around. It's something you have to experience to understand.

I'm sure there are many more obvious things about other specs that I'm not aware of but so far I hope it's simply early days and once they have finished the new artifact talents they will move onto catching up with things that were missed in 7.1.5. Raid encounters being tested just had me worried.
I can't find where they said it but I'm pretty sure I remember reading (or seeing) that the devs are leaving major tuning changes to .5 patches. Meaning 7.1.5, 7.2.5, etc.

So I personally wouldn't get my hopes up that we'll see any fixes/changes in 7.2.
02/08/2017 11:45 PMPosted by Drako
I can't find where they said it but I'm pretty sure I remember reading (or seeing) that the devs are leaving major tuning changes to .5 patches. Meaning 7.1.5, 7.2.5, etc.

So I personally wouldn't get my hopes up that we'll see any fixes/changes in 7.2.


I really hope this isn't correct seeing as many specs have been completely ignored since legion started and with 7.2 PTR looking to be rather lengthly I would have hoped to see changes prior to the next raid which I know won't be launching with 7.2 but some time after.
02/08/2017 11:45 PMPosted by Drako
I can't find where they said it but I'm pretty sure I remember reading (or seeing) that the devs are leaving major tuning changes to .5 patches. Meaning 7.1.5, 7.2.5, etc.

So I personally wouldn't get my hopes up that we'll see any fixes/changes in 7.2.


I thought it was the opposite; That .Xs were mechanical changes and .X.5s were small tuning changes, but I could be wrong here.
I've looked but I can't find where I read or saw it so it could be either way honestly.

All I know is that it stuck in my head and I feel like I got it right but I have been wrong before. Once.
My recollection was that minor tuning was in .5 and major in full patches but I guess we'll wait and see. Maybe a dev could give us some insight.
I feel the same way about lower content on my Prot Warrior, however when you get to content you are actually geared for I have never felt squishier. Having a shield for 800k and taking 4m hits to the face in NH is not very fun.

Insofar as whether class changes are coming on 7.2 or 7.2.5, this past patch saw sweeping changes to a lot of specs, so I wouldn't be surprised if they kept it the way it was through 7.2. Certainly does not seem like they are addressing any of the pertinent issues with classes.
I am shocked by this sudden development.

But they said they were listening!
Their class team egos are way too large to realize that they aren't all knowing and haven't created the perfect classes that exactly fit the class fantasy and play perfectly.

Don't you remember "We're pretty happy with 7.1.5"

The class team is a damn joke. So many classes are in bad shape either from a tuning perspective or a gameplay perspective.

Which is only more disheartening because of how great the rest of the Legion is (except Legendaries)
We're planning to have relatively minimal changes to core class design in 7.2. This is for two primary reasons:

  • The 7.2 changes and additions to Artifact Traits will have a lot of impact on classes, and so we'd like to keep core functionality relatively stable
  • We just made a very significant amount of changes to most specs in 7.1.5, and don't want to pile another heap of changes on the community just yet.

That's not to say that there won't be any class changes in 7.2, just that it's not a major focus of the patch the same way it was in 7.1.5. As someone mentioned above, our strategy for Legion is to keep those sorts of heavy class changes to 7.x.5-level patches.

I should add, however, that we're already getting fairly deep into discussions on what might happen in one such future patch, so please keep the feedback coming. Kaivax alluded to some of those discussions regarding Unholy in an earlier post, for example.
I also wanted to address this specifically, since it's the sort of thing that hasn't really been visible outside of here at the office:

02/09/2017 05:36 AMPosted by Varrow
Their class team egos are way too large to realize that they aren't all knowing and haven't created the perfect classes that exactly fit the class fantasy and play perfectly.

We have conversations literally every day about things that could have or should have been done differently, and things to want to change in the future. Just because we're overall happy with class balance as a nebulous concept at the moment doesn't mean we don't recognize that there are still issues to address.
02/09/2017 02:35 PMPosted by Lore
We're planning to have relatively minimal changes to core class design in 7.2. This is for two primary reasons:

  • The 7.2 changes and additions to Artifact Traits will have a lot of impact on classes, and so we'd like to keep core functionality relatively stable
  • We just made a very significant amount of changes to most specs in 7.1.5, and don't want to pile another heap of changes on the community just yet.

That's not to say that there won't be any class changes in 7.2, just that it's not a major focus of the patch the same way it was in 7.1.5. As someone mentioned above, our strategy for Legion is to keep those sorts of heavy class changes to 7.x.5-level patches.

I should add, however, that we're already getting fairly deep into discussions on what might happen in one such future patch, so please keep the feedback coming. Kaivax alluded to some of those discussions regarding Unholy in an [url="http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753226078?page=5#post-86"]earlier post[/url], for example.


This is good to know. However, I'd be interested to know what would count as a "significant change". Numbers tuning, I'm assuming, is not, while moving talents around, making some baseline and adding others, will be. So the question is, then, for classes that have talents that should be baseline, and others that need revisions, will we be waiting until 7.2.5? Or can we see some of those changes sooner? Thanks!
That's a real shame Lore. I realize development time is a real thing but it has the real unhealthy smell of fear when class refinement should be something Blizzard is brave on. Protection Warrior performance and Hunter changes aside, 7.1.5 had some great changes in it. Shadow won in a big way for instance, not only on increasing their performance but making the class fun and engaging to play.

I have a variety of talents in two of my specs that are in need of buffs, and nerfs. As Arms I'm forced into a very specific talent setup to be viable and can't get the talent setup I actually want to play. For Fury the "Outburst" talent is quite literally worthless and is one of the most trap of trap talents in the game, and that isn't hyperbole at all.

To hear I'm gonna have to wait months, if not potentially over a year for the next expansion to continue being forced into unfun talent setups is real disheartening news indeed.
02/09/2017 02:35 PMPosted by Lore
We just made a very significant amount of changes to most specs in 7.1.5


Except Healers, that constantly get ignored.
Blizz way of doing things: Talk for weeks and months of how they're going to change stuff for the better but never do it then do a medium sized change that no one likes or asked for.
Wait, so that mean that all the hunters stuff people complained about with 7.1.5 that was suposed to get "fixed" for 7.2 is now pushed back to 7.2.5?
02/09/2017 02:35 PMPosted by Lore
We're planning to have relatively minimal changes to core class design in 7.2. This is for two primary reasons:

  • The 7.2 changes and additions to Artifact Traits will have a lot of impact on classes, and so we'd like to keep core functionality relatively stable
  • We just made a very significant amount of changes to most specs in 7.1.5, and don't want to pile another heap of changes on the community just yet.

That's not to say that there won't be any class changes in 7.2, just that it's not a major focus of the patch the same way it was in 7.1.5. As someone mentioned above, our strategy for Legion is to keep those sorts of heavy class changes to 7.x.5-level patches.

I should add, however, that we're already getting fairly deep into discussions on what might happen in one such future patch, so please keep the feedback coming. Kaivax alluded to some of those discussions regarding Unholy in an [url="http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753226078?page=5#post-86"]earlier post[/url], for example.


I hope that isn't the case for warlocks with 7.2, since watcher told us in one of the Q&A's I believe with yourself that they basically didn't have time to make the significant changes other classes saw in 7.1.5 for locks and that we would have our turn further down the line.

Destruction specifically saw the least amount of change being the last spec introduced on the alpha, and has received very minimal change since the expansion launched. While other specs got some of the "ripple" changes over time, destruction has received very little by comparison and is still waiting for its turn to be iterated on.

With the overhaul to our resource system that watcher talked about which is a fairly core thing, I hope there's a bit more change for destruction on the horizon.
02/09/2017 02:40 PMPosted by Lore
I also wanted to address this specifically, since it's the sort of thing that hasn't really been visible outside of here at the office:

We have conversations literally every day about things that could have or should have been done differently, and things to want to change in the future. Just because we're overall happy with class balance as a nebulous concept at the moment doesn't mean we don't recognize that there are still issues to address.


You are all happy with class balance? Are we playing the same game here?

PvP is a wreck right now unless you are a Monk, DH or Druid. In PvE some classes still have major dps issues or lack of imagination on how to achieve dps. I have 3 buttons for FDK that I push in my rotation...... Sure I get high DPS but the class was overpruned.

This whole new class fantasy thing is killing some classes. I am supposed to be slow moving and hard hitting... Great except when I tank. Ever watch a blood DK tank? Its like watching your 90 year old grandma play tennis.

I am sure many other classes can post and have posted about how their class is boring or lacks dps or was overpruned. Please do not be happy with the current state of classes in legion. We are not happy with it.
Does this mean no tuning changes are imminent? If so that's heartbreaking to some classes like mages. We need to know soon so the rerolls can commence.
So as an MM Hunter PvPer I should give up until at least 7.2.5?

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