Mythic+ Problems

General Discussion
Prev 1 2 3 4 9 Next
03/14/2017 02:21 PMPosted by Thrasius
I think the best thing to do is just increase the loot you get from the longer and harder ones. If no one wants to chase the carrot, you gotta make the carrot bigger.


I 'believe' they're planning to do this by increasing the AP gains from longer dungeons and decreasing the amount you get from Maw and the other shorter ones.
As far as ranking, hardest to easiest: as a hot-based healer without many emergency flash heals, skittish can die in a fire in my book. Tag on bolstering or teeming for extra awesomeness. ;)

I think Bolstering, Volcanic, and Necrotic are all in the same tier, in that they require situational awareness and (except volcanic) some use of class abilties. It's either going to be smooth or terrible given how well each member plays.

I happen to think Necrotic is an example of an affix done well, in that it's puzzle that all 5 people can help solve. The healer times cds, the dps uses cc, the tank uses terrain to kite around. That's actually fun and really satisfying when done well.

On the other hand, overflowing was effectively *just* a healer affix with no real group interaction otherwise. It's also going away, so disregarding.

Sanguine is pretty easy, if the tank knows what's up. It has minor interaction with the rest of the group, but it does require a bit of awareness.

Teeming is, imo, the easiest one to deal with, in that it is the least likely to wipe you. But on the other hand, it strongly favors a very specific dps model - bursts aoe on a short cd (hello, demon hunter). I don't mind a gimme, but this probably promotes some of the antisocial behavior when forming groups that Blizz wanted to tamp down.

All in all - this is the Vanilla version of M+, so I expect several iterations before the rough edges are smoothed out. All in all, I thinks it's a pretty good system, and most of the negative experiences come from social behaviors - like leaving a group after one trash wipe.

On that topic - if we could guarantee at least chest per key, that would help. Example: I have DHT 9. Tank D.C.'s after 2 minutes, key depletes. If my group can replace the tank, running the depleted key would grant exactly one chest the first time it is completed, regardless of speed (fast or slow), and only the first time completed. This would give geared players an incentive to run depleted keys, and me as the key holder an incentive to take a chance on a not-quite-overgeared player, knowing that if we wipe a couple times - well it was only ever going to be one chest anyway, and better to grab that 875 rather than wait in queue hoping for that 890 to pop up.

Thanks Orny!
03/14/2017 02:30 PMPosted by Solthius
My biggest gripe with Mythic+ are the timers. Timers are the reason I didn't like CMs, and it's the reason I really dislike Mythic+ despite loving the concept.
I've seen this point of discussion too, and it's come up numerous times in my own feedback and reporting. Just wanted to say I know this is a valid opinion that I'm definitely aware of.
03/14/2017 02:25 PMPosted by Ssigma
Necrotic...Oh necrotic is such a lovely affix. It sort of feels like that you must demand dps higher than the ilv requirement for that affix sometimes, just so you can burn down a grp/boss fast enough before the tank dies to no healing.


but, that's when you kite, chain stun, pop shaman elementals, or pet taunts, etc. there are lots of creative ways to handle necrotic.

I'll take necrotic over skittish any day of the week :/

it's a group comp thing, I suppose. I run m+ on my bear with a mage, ele shaman and hunter. we have tons of ways for me to drop necrotic. but skittish... /shudder.
Skittish is by far the hardest for all roles, IMO.

Next comes necrotic, which can be really hard or really easy, friendly on the track class and how powerful the DPS is.

Bolstering and reading can be trouble, but they can be defeated with everyone being strong at what they do.

Really I just hate skittish, and I think necrotic is unfair to certain tank classes.
03/14/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Ornyx
I would also be interested in how you guys rank the affixes in order of difficulty to deal with (this obviously changes as the rank increases, but lets look at say... 5 which is pretty average) in the current environment on live.
I tank Mythic +15s on every class weekly, so I have a decent amount of experience with the affixes and how they interact.

I'll preface my breakdown with this: mini-bosses should not count as "trash" as far as the affixes are concerned. Extreme examples of this are the Demon Hunter at the start of Vault of the Wardens, the Mariners in Maw of Souls, and the viking pirate in Maw of Souls. Those mobs become absurd with some of the affixes, especially on Fortified. They should either be flagged as bosses or neither. I think the two mini-bosses before Hyrja are examples of this.

Level 4
1) Bolstering
I rank this as the worst affix in the 4-bracket simply because it forces the group to slow down and control DPS. This takes the more coordination to handle, and it makes beating the timer hard. Even if I take a group of 890+ players into a low level M+, I can't pull the entire planet because of this mechanic.

2) Raging
Of the 4-bracket, this one is the worst in terms of scaling, especially with Fortified. As the levels go higher and higher, this mechanic eventually gets stupid because it leads to scenarios of "the tank just dies." There are ways to play around it, such as saving AoE stuns for when mob health starts dropping to 30%, or using Shield Walls, but some mobs are immune to CC, such as at least one mob in nearly every pack in Maw of Souls. The tl;dr of this is the mechanic on its own is fine, but it feels imbalanced at high levels when combined with Fortified.

3) Teeming
Often, this affix is more annoying than anything else, which is fine. Some instances become much more difficult, though, and it doesn't feel balanced. Two good examples are Halls of Valour and Nelth's Lair. HoV is already on the top 2 of everybody's "avoid" list, and Teeming makes it worse because it adds a gorillian Thundercallers. Nelth's Lair is normally one of the easier M+ dungeons, but Teeming adds Pelters, which are the worst mobs in the dungeon besides the scorpions once your group is good at dodging Avalanche from the Breakers. If how Teeming impacts dungeons is normalized, it'll be a great affix. The other issues it has arise from it combining with other affixes, specifically Skittish and Necrotic.

4) Sanguine
When I run M+ on Sanguine week, my group and I don't even consider this an affix. The change to make it 8 yards should help, but it'll probably be by far the easiest affix in the 4-bracket.

Level 7
1) Skittish
PLEASE, REMOVE THIS AFFIX FROM THE GAME. I cannot emphasize it enough. Skittish is not fun or engaging. It's terrible game design, and it slows down M+ runs like no other. As a tank, I go from enjoying M+ to dreading them, and am frustrated more than anything. What exacerbates this is how ilevel scales. The higher the group's average ilevel, the worse Skittish gets. Unless you plan to give all tanks an AoE taunt on a 30 second cooldown, this affix will remain terrible, and only get worse. Great examples of the "fun" of this affix are the start of a boss pull, where I hit my highest damaging abilities, such as Exploding Keg, lose threat, taunt the boss, and lose threat literally 4 seconds later. What's also fun is losing threat on 3-4 things at once and only having one way to taunt them back (two if I'm on my DK). Nerfing this from 80% to 75% is not nearly enough. It's a bandaid fix for a mechanic that is fundamentally bad.

2) Volcanic
Thanks to the Necrotic nerfs, I give this the #2 spot. Honestly, I feel this affix is fundamentally fine. There are, however, two major issues that I consider bugs that need a serious fix. Firstly, mobs that are "RP fighting," such as the Withered and Nightborne in the Arcway, should not trigger Volcanic because the players are not in combat with them. Secondly, there are creatures that count as mobs that spawn Volcanic, that shouldn't. The biggest offender of this are the "ghosts" on Malandrus at the end of Court of Stars. They're not attackable mobs, yet they spawn Volcanic. I think something like this happens on Deepbeard. I feel these are major oversights that ruin an otherwise balanced mechanic.

3) Necrotic
This would be above Volcanic, but after the nerfs, this affix is extremely easy. The tank has to play around it, and on some bosses (like Rokmora), it can be difficult, but overall, it's not very tough. I think the affix is in a good place. It not dropping after combat is what made it really unfun, as you had to wait around between packs, or try to reset as a pack was about to die so you could chain pull.

4) Overflowing
This affix is hardly an affix. What's funny is this affix becomes less challenging as the level goes up because everyone is taking more damage, so overhealing doesn't happen as often. There are some classes like Shaman and Paladin that struggle with this, as they can get enormous crit heals, but this has almost never been a factor in M+. From an ease perspective, I'm very sad to see this one go.

Level 10
1) Fortified
This is a no brainer. More instances are made more difficult by this mechanic, and it shouldn't be surprising. The damage multiplier is huge compared to Tyrannical, and instances generally consist of mostly trash, so this affix buffs a larger percentage of what we have to fight. This mechanic is really a matter of scaling. Some dungeons have hardly any nasty mobs (like Eye of Azshara), so this affix has less impact on them. Fortified when combined with certain mini-bosses or other affixes (like Raging) is just excruciating.

2) Tyrannical
Some bosses have brutal abilities that depart from the "nasty" category and venture into the "stupid" category with this affix. At levels 10-15, a few dungeons become much worse with this affix. Eye of Azshara is normally a great dungeon to get, but it becomes one of the tougher ones with Tyrannical. One side note is that Tyrannical is actually the worst of the two affixes when pushing extremely high (20+) keys because boss mechanics start becoming mathematically impossible to survive, as in they'll do enough damage to 1 shot a non-tank player. Obviously, this is a consequence of pushing the M+ system to its limit.

Overall, with the 10-bracket, the affixes are simply uninteresting. They just ratchet up numbers, which is way different than, say, Bolstering, which forces you to change your approach to the dungeon. The only "interesting" thing that comes out of these two affixes is that it makes players respect each and every mechanic, as abilities like Dark Slash turn into near 1 shot abilities that have to be played around in order to survive.

What really sucks about the 10-bracket, though, is that it scales multiplicatively with the base keystone level.

One final thing to note is that even after the AP balancing is done, people will still want to avoid HoV and BRH. Why? They're harder than the other dungeons. It obviously helps that all dungeons will likely have the same AP/hour yield, at least as far as their base timers are concerned, but Eye of Azshara, Maw of Souls, Darkheart Thicket, Court of Stars, etc, will still be much preferred over Halls of Valour and Black Rook Hold simply because of the challenge factor. Not only does HoV have some of the worst trash in the M+ pool, but Hyrja is the deadliest boss on Tyrannical. BRH also has lots of extremely awful trash, which makes it a real drag to run.
03/14/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for copying this over! Good feedback here that I can send on up. I think the point on differences in difficulties between affixes is particularly relevant. Seems a relevant conversation the dev team would be happy to listen to is everyone's thoughts on how you deal with the various affixes (ignore them, smaller pulls, etc), and how those experiences have evolved so far in Legion.

The only affix I have a real problem with is Tyrannical. This one needs a boss-by-boss analysis on Blizzard's part because it makes some dungeons at +15 downright impossible without item levels WAY higher than the 885 they drop.
Biggest offenders are Advisor Melandrus, Shade of Xavius and Hyrja, with their unavoidable 1-shots and AoEs
No single word about the loot?

You have to outgear the loot given by the chest to be able to complete it.

Or I'm missing something here.
03/14/2017 03:05 PMPosted by Sahmael
No single word about the loot?

You have to outgear the loot given by the chest to be able to complete it.

Or I'm missing something here.


You have to out gear it to 3 chest, you can complete it with the relevant ilv maybe barely on time or deplete the key, but you get 1 chest regardless of how long it takes you to complete it.
03/11/2017 05:38 PMPosted by Amoc
you have instances which are easy and popular because they have very manageable trash and equally manageable bosses, and which might be pretty short on top of that (like MoS) and those where you have dangerous and annoying trash and deadly bosses, which might be very long on top of this (like HoV).

If I may offer a counterpoint...HoV is a point of entry for players that can pull their weight but have taken a break from gearing. I haven't been able to play competitively in months since I was injured IRL, and my main's gear has been falling behind because of it. If I want to do an M+ of a level that is actually appropriate for my gear (i.e. the type I would have been welcome in prior to the break) I won't be accepted to anything except HoV, so HoV is all I queue for.
03/14/2017 03:27 PMPosted by Malady
03/11/2017 05:38 PMPosted by Amoc
you have instances which are easy and popular because they have very manageable trash and equally manageable bosses, and which might be pretty short on top of that (like MoS) and those where you have dangerous and annoying trash and deadly bosses, which might be very long on top of this (like HoV).

If I may offer a counterpoint...HoV is a point of entry for players that can pull their weight but have taken a break from gearing. I haven't been able to play competitively in months since I was injured IRL, and my main's gear has been falling behind because of it. If I want to do an M+ of a level that is actually appropriate for my gear (i.e. the type I would have been welcome in prior to the break) I won't be accepted to anything except HoV, so HoV is all I queue for.


You should get a guild. We had a couple of new players join this week that quit shortly after Legion went live, and they're literally just hitting 110 this week. While they're out there gearing up on their own with WQs, we're also carrying them through M+ runs and NH Normal next Monday.
03/14/2017 02:08 PMPosted by Ornyx
I would also be interested in how you guys rank the affixes in order of difficulty to deal with (this obviously changes as the rank increases, but lets look at say... 5 which is pretty average) in the current environment on live.

Bolstering and Skittish simply don't promote any amount of intelligent game play in their current design.

When you have specific weeks where people just don't want to bothering playing or running mythic+ dungeons, you question the affixes rather than the players or the dungeons. There's always going to be dungeons that are worse off than the others, but when every single one of them just doesn't remotely seem worth it for that week and it's better to wait the next, you have a serious design flaw.

The difference between this current week and last week is unquestionable. Where you could 3 chest a 15 with ease, it's fighting tooth and nail with mobs that have 150 million health because they were bolstered into Fortified.

Not an intelligent system.

If Bolstering simply increased damage, and just REMOVED Skittish like you did with Overflowing, it wouldn't be as big of an issue. The health aspect just doesn't make any sense.
03/14/2017 02:53 PMPosted by Robotronic
1) Skittish
PLEASE, REMOVE THIS AFFIX FROM THE GAME. I cannot emphasize it enough. Skittish is not fun or engaging. It's terrible game design, and it slows down M+ runs like no other.


Skittish varies depending on the class your tank is, it goes down to overflowing levels if you have a warrior/paladin tank or one of the hardest if you are a dk/druid.


One final thing to note is that even after the AP balancing is done, people will still want to avoid HoV and BRH. Why? They're harder than the other dungeons.


I dont agree HoV is one of the hardest one, the hardest pull in the dungeon is the second one and just cc'ing 1 mob(2 with teeming) makes it manageable, after that is a really simple instance.

Hyrja is only hard when necrotic is up, other than that the only damage people should be taking is the horn and while it does do a lot of damage, if people dodge the dragons there is nothing that will kills you.

If the ap reward is double the one you get from Maw, i think it will be worth it to run it.
03/14/2017 02:40 PMPosted by Annastasi
03/14/2017 02:25 PMPosted by Ssigma
Necrotic...Oh necrotic is such a lovely affix. It sort of feels like that you must demand dps higher than the ilv requirement for that affix sometimes, just so you can burn down a grp/boss fast enough before the tank dies to no healing.


but, that's when you kite, chain stun, pop shaman elementals, or pet taunts, etc. there are lots of creative ways to handle necrotic.

I'll take necrotic over skittish any day of the week :/

it's a group comp thing, I suppose. I run m+ on my bear with a mage, ele shaman and hunter. we have tons of ways for me to drop necrotic. but skittish... /shudder.


That's my problem with m+, specific group comp requirements especially at the higher levels. Ideally every class should have something in their toolkit to handle any affix. Then it would be merely a matter of execution and high level m+s not an issue. However, with the ability prune and changes to some specs certain classes have a much, much harder time when there are two or three affixes than others. The imbalance is much more evident in m+.
Mine is that the loot IS random...I did a 7 last night.

Opened the chest: hey a nice 875 helmet. On a pally with Justice Gaze. It would help if we could CHOOSE an item we can use rather than get an item that is totally USELESS.

And as for itemisation: dont get me started.


I would also be interested in how you guys rank the affixes in order of difficulty to deal with (this obviously changes as the rank increases, but lets look at say... 5 which is pretty average) in the current environment on live.



I think it would make more sense to compare dungeons at around +7 because then you have combinations of affixes.
03/14/2017 03:39 PMPosted by Aehl
Mine is that the loot IS random...I did a 7 last night.

Opened the chest: hey a nice 875 helmet. On a pally with Justice Gaze. It would help if we could CHOOSE an item we can use rather than get an item that is totally USELESS.

And as for itemisation: dont get me started.


Then you would just choose BiS items and be done with M+ after a few months.

Random loot is random. It's no different than not being able to choose what loot a boss drops.
03/14/2017 02:40 PMPosted by Annastasi
03/14/2017 02:25 PMPosted by Ssigma
Necrotic...Oh necrotic is such a lovely affix. It sort of feels like that you must demand dps higher than the ilv requirement for that affix sometimes, just so you can burn down a grp/boss fast enough before the tank dies to no healing.


but, that's when you kite, chain stun, pop shaman elementals, or pet taunts, etc. there are lots of creative ways to handle necrotic.

I'll take necrotic over skittish any day of the week :/

it's a group comp thing, I suppose. I run m+ on my bear with a mage, ele shaman and hunter. we have tons of ways for me to drop necrotic. but skittish... /shudder.


why would you shudder at skittish with that group comp you mentioned?
They are all ranged, so that's 1 point of ezmode.
Shaman has earth elemental so that's another point of ezmode.
Not sure about what spec your hunter is but for skittish just play bm so your pet has a taunt. Another point of ezmode.
Skittish.

It starts off easy at low key levels, but when you're doing 15's and beyond if the tank loses aggro a melee dps just dies instantly.

It wouldn't be quite so bad if it wasn't paired with fortified, or bolstering, or both.

Skittish is an affix designed to make you focus a target, paired with bolstering which makes you want to spread DPS evenly. It's a match made in hell.
03/14/2017 03:43 PMPosted by Verbatim


I would also be interested in how you guys rank the affixes in order of difficulty to deal with (this obviously changes as the rank increases, but lets look at say... 5 which is pretty average) in the current environment on live.



I think it would make more sense to compare dungeons at around +7 because then you have combinations of affixes.


That is very true, at +5 the affix makes very little difference unless your group is undergeared.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum