“It’s Just a Cosmetic Appearance” 3

General Discussion
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The problem with the "prestige" argument is that it is BS. Sorry if it comes off as harsh or mean, but doing X druing Y is not prestigious. I have the legendary ring and cloak and neither of those things are sepcial, all they show is that I played at a speicifc time. I wouldn't give a single care if they were made avaible again. In fact I'd rather they still be avaible because in both cases their questlines were better parts of the expansion that you just cannot experience anymore.

Removal of conent should only be applied to content that is actually prestigious. Server firsts and top rank PVP. Things like Challenge mode sets, raid mounts, the legendary ring and cloak. That stuff you could buy if you had enough gold. Seeing somebody with any of those things isn't impressive, it just means they played during a certain time period.

It seems that it's not a part of blizzard vision to enjoy content outside the current expansion, but a lot of people actually like going back to collect old stuff. With Legion, if you were to remove the ability to earn artifact weapon appearances the expansion as a while would lose such a major reason to go back. They are some of the coolest and most iconic weapons in WoW history, and the fact that they are class specific makes them all the better. To be told "too bad not only did you have to do X during Y but you also had to do it as Z" would kill motivation to go back to Legion or level through it again.

TL;DR: Stop the removal of content or regulate it to actual prestigous content
03/21/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Ornyx
When thinking about the 'Balance of Power' quest line, the intention is for it to feel similar to the Legendary Ring or Cloak quest lines from the past couple of expansions insofar that neither one of those can be obtained today, and both were time-sensitive achievements to show you participated in that expansion content wholeheartedly.
Then just keep the achievement to those who did it 'on time', but leave the rewards intact for late comers/new toons.

I don't get the obsessed thinking of taking things - older, non character-power things - away, just to 'make them special'.

I'm not sure about does this we-need-to-remove stance is making them special or don't - but i am certain this is making players infuriated.

03/21/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Ornyx
I think it's important that these achievements and their rewards feel prestigious overall, especially since cosmetics rewards are by no means "mandatory". We do think it's fine that some of these rewards take a lot of effort to earn over all.
Being prestigious doesn't mean it should be, or needs to be, time-limited. Does anyone think 'The Insane' isn't prestigious enough?

And when you guys say 'a lot of effort' - have you guys actually realize the amount of effort needed to attain those 'cosmetic' rewards?
03/21/2017 02:03 PMPosted by Ornyx
I'm aware, but saying "limited time" here makes it sound like you didn't have the entire course of an expansion to do it.


That's because you don't! Time has never been more limited than it has in Legion. Keeping up artifact power on one main character is a black hole activity. Every minute you spend leveling and gearing an alt (to the levels of absurdity expected in pugs now, no less) is a minute you didn't spend grinding up AP.

When there were only 54 traits there was an end to it. An end to the madness! Then we could finally do stuff on our other characters! But no. Come 7.2 it will never end. What is it, 20 billion AP to max a single weapon? How exactly are we supposed to find the time to do this and get our alts caught up enough (which is NEVER enough, as pugs simply set the bar above the catchup mechanisms) to actually succeed at some of these unlocks?

Isn't the challenge one only up for three days after the whole server sinks enough nethershards to build the tower (an amount of time which I guarantee will increase in future patches as players move on to Argus), and each attempt is more shard-grinding on top of that? That means more gear, more AP farming and more endless grinding just to have a decent shake at doing it while it's up. PER TOON. "The entire course of an expansion" indeed.
03/21/2017 08:58 PMPosted by Lockedheart
destro locks would like that kind of bad luck but we get face the bad luck 7 tiems a week. so for every 20 bear bad luck rolls a typical locks get shafted with 140 bad luck rolls :(

Also, unless they've changed something, bad luck protection for hidden appearances currently only applies to raid and dungeon drops.
Just wanted to chime in and give a very small bit of feedback re: hidden appearances in general;

The 100 dungeon requirement for unlocking a color-variation for the hidden artifact appearances is a bit crazy for one character, let alone doing it for multiple alts.

It's especially grating when you have to do around a hundred or more dungeon runs just to *get* the hidden appearance in the first place...
This gets more pathetic from blizzard.
They really fail to understand
03/21/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for all your feedback so far here - it's been a great read to get us thinking about some of these things.

First, I'd like to reiterate that we have not made any final decisions on how appearance unlocks will work in a post-Legion world, so any thoughts, discussion, feedback, etc. on that is appreciated.


Thanks, Ornyx. Appreciate you letting us know it's something that's still on your radar.

03/21/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Ornyx
When thinking about the 'Balance of Power' quest line, the intention is for it to feel similar to the Legendary Ring or Cloak quest lines from the past couple of expansions insofar that neither one of those can be obtained today, and both were time-sensitive achievements to show you participated in that expansion content wholeheartedly.


Not sure if you're able to get into this here, but if possible: why the discrepancy, then, between the Legendary Ring/Cloak being possible to complete in LFR?

Does it come down to there being less in terms of "reward" for raiders, weapon-wise, because of the artifact system?

I think that's an understandable argument to make, for certain - though I'd still like to see it decoupled as a pre-requisite from the other achievements in that row, personally (killing 8 world bosses, etc).

03/21/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Ornyx
I think it's important that these achievements and their rewards feel prestigious overall, especially since cosmetics rewards are by no means "mandatory".


I'd say there are actually two definitions of "mandatory" at play here:

* Power-based: The items and upgrades you need to complete content at progressively tougher difficulties.

* Motivation-based: The things individual players find fun about the game, and that keep them playing.

I understand that from a design perspective you guys are likely to be viewing this through the filter of "will the player need this to kill the most recent Mythic raid boss?" and are coming up with a "no." And there's nothing about that that's the "wrong answer," exactly - but the point is that it seems to be ignoring a lot of the reasons why people might be staying motivated to play the game.

Look at it this way:

* For a raider, their motivation for playing is likely to be either "power" or "completion."

* For a PvP-focused player, their motivation is likely to be either "power" or "rating."

* For an achievement-focused player, their motivation's obviously going to be achievement-hunting.

* For a collector, their motivation's going to be about hunting down the things they'd like to have.

I guess that's the part I'm surprised people don't seem to be seeing. If you removed rating from Arenas, for example, wouldn't you expect half the Arena-motivated player count to take a sudden dive, because literally half of their motivation for playing was suddenly gone?

Why is it viewed as "something less important" when it comes down to "collecting" being a motivational point? Is it a statistics issue?

Could you look at game logs and view how many max-level players have run pre-Legion content in a given week to get some idea of how many people do that as part of their fun with the game?

When you start talking about taking away literally half of the motivation behind people's play time in a given expansion, no matter what that motivation is or how "mandatory" it is in terms of progression, you're going to start losing players.

That's as true for collecting as it is for PvP or raiding. The only real question is whether or not you care to continue to support it, and if the answer's "no, we don't think it's important" then it's probably going to make a lot of people re-think playing.

03/21/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Ornyx
We do think it's fine that some of these rewards take a lot of effort to earn over all.


100% agreed on that point. It's the quality-of-life/sanity check issues that concern me a bit more.

100 half-hour dungeons would be 50 hours of play time, 1000 kills in PvP might take 12-20 hours if you spam Alterac Valley, etc etc. Doing those even one time can be a pretty onerous task, particularly if it's content you don't enjoy doing, and on a class/spec you don't enjoy playing.

When I came to World of Warcraft from EverQuest, I was really happy about things like rested experience and the lack of experience loss on death. It felt like the game understood I had a life outside of it, and didn't want to punish me for it.

Balance of Power, or 100 dungeons, or 1000 PvP kills, and then repeating those grinds on every class, all within a time limit - it's asking a lot. Remove the time limit, though? It's suddenly bearable - no less work in almost every case, but not insane.

So I'd ask that you guys please rethink just how hard you want the game to be in terms of balancing it against real-life concerns, and please try and remember that this should be about "fun" rather than "proving something" when it comes to every single aspect of gameplay.

Leave some room for people to chip off little bits of progress towards whatever their motivation is in their own time, rather than against an ever-present ticking clock they can never hope to beat.
It's genuinely baffling to think that anyone, let alone the dev team, can think removing an entire expansion worth of weapon transmog is both acceptable and 'fun'.

I'm sorry but if come next xpack the entirety of Legion's artifact appearances go away, I'm not going to sit in my chair thinking "Aww ye I feel so special now!" I'm going to sit there and think "Well that sucks, I only had time to farm a few appearances."

With as harsh as Legion has been to alts (Let's not pretend it hasn't) I just don't see a justification for removing this huge chunk of content. It's not fun, it's not empowering and it's just not rational.

When thinking about the 'Balance of Power' quest line, the intention is for it to feel similar to the Legendary Ring or Cloak quest lines from the past couple of expansions insofar that neither one of those can be obtained today, and both were time-sensitive achievements to show you participated in that expansion content wholeheartedly.

With Legion, we decided to go with a cosmetic reward instead of an item that augments your power (mainly to balance the feeling of being a much weaker raid spot candidate), but it should still be and feel like a reward for players who actively participate in organized raid content.


I think the biggest problem I have here is that if it was meant to be on par with the legendaries of the past two expansions and a reward for raiding...I would have locked the first skin behind balance of power, another behind Tomb and the last behind whatever raid we see with 7.3 or perhaps behind Glory of the Legion Raider (instead of legion hero, which is for dungeons).

I could see it being the same then. You start off with some dungeons and do some raiding and get your early version of the rin...skin, and then continued raiding to upgrade it as the expansion goes on.

Right now one skin is world bosses and the other two are from dungeons. The reward for raiding and legendary comparisons sounds like a justification made up after the fact or just no one really thought about it.
With Legion, we decided to go with a cosmetic reward instead of an item that augments your power (mainly to balance the feeling of being a much weaker raid spot candidate), but it should still be and feel like a reward for players who actively participate in organized raid content.


There's noting organized about PUG Raiding.
From what you guys were saying before, the appearances were just going to be placed in our transmog tab which is fine for almost all classes/specs. The issue becomes when dealing with the druid forms for guardian and feral. These are what i would like to know what's being done with. Will they be glyphs like the orca or sentinel or tombs akin to flap or the stag?
So. I'm in vet school. That takes up a massive amount of my time, for obvious reasons. What little free time I have has been mostly spent on this toon, my main, trying to keep her AP high enough to keep up with my fellow raiders. I've barely managed to do this, but I'm finally at the point where her main weapon is nearly maxed. During that journey, I've gotten most, but not all, of the weapon appearance I've been after, including all 4 specs' hidden appearances (still working on Balance of Power, and no interest in the PvP looks). I finally had time to play other alts.

With Legion's focus on individual class stories, and weapon stories, my goal has been to level every class so I can see them. I'm a massive lorehound. If there's story there, I want to see it. Some of those classes have some really cool looking hidden appearances, too. I've managed to finish the class quest on 8/12 classes. Besides my main, I've only unlocked two other hidden appearances, which was on the Hunter, who can buy it for gold, and my Monk, who can easily check her brewhouse daily. I'm finally getting close to Fury axes on my warrior, but getting exalted with Valarjar and revered with Dreamweavers just to get the skulls to drop from the dragons has been terribly time consuming.

Now it's post midterms and 7.2 is coming. My freetime is dwindling again and little I have is about to shift back to my main and the now never ending grind for AP (side note, I also don't like this). I still want to unlock at least one of the hidden appearances for all of the other classes (and all three for paladins because all of them look pretty awesome). Of course, I still need to just level four of the classes.

If the appearances stay in the game, which I would greatly prefer for them to do, I won't be stressed out about not having enough time to get them. Anything I don't manage to get remains content to keep me playing as time goes on.

If the appearances leave the game, then it becomes an immediate stress fest to get as many as I can in the time I have. Any I don't get will be a bitter reminder of how unlucky I was with RNG. And it becomes removed content, a lost reason to continue playing. I'm not implying I would quit over this, but I am against removing content on principle. Like the Mists cloaks. I got mine, on 5 or 6 characters actually, but that storyline has still been removed. I'll never be able to watch Wrathion eat Lei Shen's heart ever again. That reason to run old content is gone. I just can't condone that loss of art.

I guess the tl;dr is that my time is limited because I'm an adult doing adult things, but I want to play your game, too, Blizzard. I just wish you wouldn't put me on a timer for it.
03/21/2017 02:03 PMPosted by Ornyx
I'm aware, but saying "limited time" here makes it sound like you didn't have the entire course of an expansion to do it.


Why not just give them a feat of strength? You can't even use the ring anymore, and you can get every cloak from the vendor if you did it once. That's also content that could be keeping people entertained right now if they aren't interested in raiding or PvP, but perhaps are really into transmog and lore.

It was contentious then and it's contentious now because people don't like being arbitrarily locked out of content they never had a chance or time to access.

03/21/2017 02:03 PMPosted by Ornyx
This conversation came up around the end of Warlords as well (and I'm sure it did with Mists, but I wasn't here then), but our view on it still stands that those who are engaged and active throughout the expansion in all of its aspects are the ones who have the easiest time earning these items. That's not something we see as a problem.


I think you're saying something different than you're meaning here. "Those who are engaged and active throughout the expansion in all of it's aspects are the ones who have the easiest time earning these items" but if this is going the way of MoP cloak and WoD ring, those who weren't active and engaged throughout the expansion for whatever reason, don't have the ability to earn things at all.

That's a whole lot different than a varying degree of difficulty based on when you did stuff.

I don't see how removing old content for prestige at the cost of the actual ability to enjoy that content for new/returning/slow players makes a lot of sense. There's new stuff to go get, new prestige to be had, and a feat of strength can show off your prestige, and not detract from anybody's game.

03/21/2017 02:03 PMPosted by Ornyx
Edit: As said, we are aware of those with many alts, and it's something we are keeping a close eye on!


If you just keep things available after they are relevant you wouldn't have to worry about this in the first place ;)
Blizzard doesn't do logic and understanding.
03/21/2017 10:12 PMPosted by Zanjin
Blizzard doesn't do logic and understanding.


Guys, really, I know this is frustrating, but insulting them is not going to accomplish anything. If we want there to be a dialogue, and if we want them to reply to this again, we need to be respectful.

Personally I have a lot of respect for the devs, and I love most of the work they do which is why I'm still playing. That's why I get frustrated when they throw out their own content because it's good content, and I want to be able to experience it and re-experience it without being rushed. I want the game to be fun, not a stressful rush.
I appreciate that Blizzard has not yet made a decision on what happens with the artifact skins post-Legion. However, I would like to toss my 2 cents in and say that I hope they make them transmoggable.

In general, I find the restrictions on transmog (particularly where Legendaries are concerned) rather...random. For example, I have the MoP cloak. And it's "special" because it's not available anymore (or so we're told). But I can't use it, at least not for anything meaningful. And since I can't use that appearance for transmog, it just sits in the bank. Same goes for all of the Legendaries in the game...I cannot think of a single logical reason not to make those transmoggable. Heck, restrict the ability to transmog a Legendary to the character that earned the Legendary, rather than making it account-wide.

The other subject I'd like to address is the removal of content to make it feel "special". Having these items sitting in the bank, unusable, doesn't make them special...whether they're still available or not. I saw the suggestion earlier to remove the achievement/title associated with the reward, but to still allow players to earn the reward later if they wish (similar to the Warlock green fire quest chain). Though going after those items without the ability to use them for transmog seems like kind of a moot point...just more bank content I guess.

At any rate, that's my two cents. Allow us to use the appearances of Legendary items on the characters who earned them, and stop removing content from the game with the intent of making it mean something.

Oh, and one more thing...comparing the Balance of Power quest chain with the quest chains for the Legendary cloak and ring from MoP and WoD is not a fair analogy...while those chains were time consuming, everything could be completed in LFG and LFR (for those of us without the time/inclination to participate in organized dungeon runs and raids). If you want to make that appearance available only to those that run Mythic dungeons and raids, then that's fine, but just say that's the intent.
03/21/2017 10:31 PMPosted by Turokhan
I appreciate that Blizzard has not yet made a decision on what happens with the artifact skins post-Legion. However, I would like to toss my 2 cents in and say that I hope they make them transmoggable.

In general, I find the restrictions on transmog (particularly where Legendaries are concerned) rather...random. For example, I have the MoP cloak. And it's "special" because it's not available anymore (or so we're told). But I can't use it, at least not for anything meaningful. And since I can't use that appearance for transmog, it just sits in the bank. Same goes for all of the Legendaries in the game...I cannot think of a single reason not to make those transmoggable. Heck, restrict the ability to transmog a Legendary to the character that earned the Legendary, rather than making it account-wide (just like Tier sets are only transmoggable by the classes that can use the items...with the exception of look-alike pieces).

The other subject I'd like to address is the removal of content to make it feel "special". Having these items sitting in the bank, unusable, doesn't make them special...whether they're still available or not. I saw the suggestion earlier to remove the achievement/title associated with the reward, but to still allow players to earn the reward later if they wish (similar to the Warlock green fire quest chain). Though my comments about being unable to transmog Legendaries sort of makes going after those items kind of a moot point.

At any rate, that's my two cents. Allow us to use the appearances of Legendary items on the characters who earned them, and stop removing content from the game with the intent of making it mean something.


They will be available to transmog, that much has been confirmed. That's why (well, at least one reason) people are wanting them to remain earnable after the fact.

Also, the legendary cloak is transmoggable.

Although I do agree that the other legendaries should also be transmoggable.

And the cloak should still be available.
Yeah, you're right about the cloak...we are able to use it for transmog. My mistake. Any other Legendary item would've been a better example.

However, the quest chain to earn the cloak was removed at the end of MoP, so you can no longer earn it if you don't already have it.
03/21/2017 10:43 PMPosted by Turokhan
Yeah, you're right about the cloak...we are able to use it for transmog. My mistake. Any other Legendary item would've been a better example.

However, the quest chain to earn the cloak was removed at the end of MoP, so you can no longer earn it if you don't already have it.


I know, that was my point, they shouldn't have taken it out lol
03/21/2017 10:24 PMPosted by Muketsu
03/21/2017 10:12 PMPosted by Zanjin
Blizzard doesn't do logic and understanding.


Guys, really, I know this is frustrating, but insulting them is not going to accomplish anything. If we want there to be a dialogue, and if we want them to reply to this again, we need to be respectful.

Personally I have a lot of respect for the devs, and I love most of the work they do which is why I'm still playing. That's why I get frustrated when they throw out their own content because it's good content, and I want to be able to experience it and re-experience it without being rushed. I want the game to be fun, not a stressful rush.


The new team has been burning the trust of the players for awhile now.

We give feedback and they ignore it.
I bet they have already made their choice and are just stringing people along like they did with flying in WoD

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