Recent Action Against Real-Money Raid Clears

General Discussion
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03/08/2017 05:36 PMPosted by Regg
Not really, no.


03/07/2017 10:50 AMPosted by Ornyx
Going forward, in order to ensure fair play and competitive integrity,


Yes, they are. Pretending this is about anything but making money is nonsense.
03/08/2017 02:50 PMPosted by Kheradin
03/08/2017 01:48 PMPosted by Reondra
I'm confused. Selling a spot in your raid for real money is some how a violation of TOS because it's hurting what exactly?


Blizzard. You're using their product, something they spent a great deal of time and money to develop to enrich yourself without Blizzard's permission. Since it's their product, they get to govern how that product is used. Which is exactly what you agree to every time you download the game or update it and agree to the ToS. Just like you can't secretly come into some one else's house while they're at work and use their living room to sell your custom T-shirts and cookies. It's not your house, you're not paying the mortgage, and yet you're using it to make money.


But if that person that came in my house paid me rent kinda like a subscription fee he would be entitled to do as he pleases because he has purchased the right to do so.

When you pay for something, that gives you an inherit right to use it in any lawful manor. Or are you trying to say that if i use a craftsman hammer to build a house that craftsman some how owns that house?

Your logic is severely flawed and you should refrain from ever posting again
03/08/2017 05:54 PMPosted by Reondra
But if that person that came in my house paid me rent kinda like a subscription fee he would be entitled to do as he pleases because he has purchased the right to do so.

Except you haven't. Read the terms of use agreement. You have no ownership rights to your account, your characters, or anything else that appears in the game.

You don't get to define what is 'lawful'.
While I am very grateful for Blizzard finally taking the steps to deal with this, the cynical part of me is still salty because PVP has had this issue for years and it feels like they're only starting to take these steps because:

1. PVE is now being affected rampantly.
2. The recent release of the Token -> Battle.net balance feature.

Again, I am very grateful. Just tired of PVP being ignored until PVE is affected.
03/08/2017 05:54 PMPosted by Reondra
When you pay for something, that gives you an inherit right to use it in any lawful manor.
You're paying for the right to use it in accordance with the Terms of Service. That's the subscription you are paying for.
03/08/2017 05:54 PMPosted by Reondra
But if that person that came in my house paid me rent kinda like a subscription fee he would be entitled to do as he pleases because he has purchased the right to do so.

When you pay for something, that gives you an inherit right to use it in any lawful manor.

No. Regardless of payment, you're still abiding by the owner's (aka Blizzard's) rules. You're not entitled to do anything you want. When you bot or sell carries for real cash, you're not building your own house, but rather renting their bedroom for strangers and reaping the profits for yourself. It's not legal in any advanced civilization and certainly won't be in WoW.
I'm trying to get the IRS attention on this matter as well, there is real money involved and these companies and/or groups have avoided paying taxes.

No luck yet, but I'm getting close.
03/08/2017 06:00 PMPosted by Regg
03/08/2017 05:54 PMPosted by Reondra
But if that person that came in my house paid me rent kinda like a subscription fee he would be entitled to do as he pleases because he has purchased the right to do so.

Except you haven't. Read the terms of use agreement. You have no ownership rights to your account, your characters, or anything else that appears in the game.

You don't get to define what is 'lawful'.


And in any real life setting there is a "reasonable use" law to protect people from morons like you that think its ok to put in lease agreements that you cant have a baby in the home.
03/08/2017 06:11 PMPosted by Reondra
morons like you that think its ok to put in lease agreements that you cant have a baby in the home.

I really don't see how these two things are in ANY way comparable.
03/08/2017 06:02 PMPosted by Prydaz
03/08/2017 05:54 PMPosted by Reondra
When you pay for something, that gives you an inherit right to use it in any lawful manor.
You're paying for the right to use it in accordance with the Terms of Service. That's the subscription you are paying for.


And if that agreement if it said they can terminate your account and keep your money because of your race, i suppose that would be ok with you too because its in the tos right?
Awesome! Keep up the good job Blizzard! Now, please do something for bots...
03/08/2017 06:16 PMPosted by Reondra
And if that agreement if it said they can terminate your account and keep your money because of your race, i suppose that would be ok with you too because its in the tos right?

http://bfy.tw/4ief
03/08/2017 06:16 PMPosted by Regg
03/08/2017 06:11 PMPosted by Reondra
morons like you that think its ok to put in lease agreements that you cant have a baby in the home.

I really don't see how these two things are in ANY way comparable.


The point is just because they put something in the TOS, that does not make it legally binding.

Let me give you a real example. A man who owned several thousand games on steam got banned for swearing. He lost the ability to play all of thoes games because of the steam TOS. This is the real life equivalent of walking in to game stop, swearing at the manager, then the manager going to your house and collecting all the merchandise you've purchased from them over the years.

Its just a matter of time till younger people hold office and these sorts of things bankrupt companies like steam and blizzard for making outlandish TOS agreements. The problem we face is that the current judicial system doesn't understand cyber property yet. When it happens there are going to be a lot of rich nerds.

When you purchase something you have certain inherit rights to that purchase. Would it be ok when you purchase a movie that you are only aloud to watch it on Sundays at 11:13 P.M.?
03/07/2017 10:50 AMPosted by Ornyx
Also note that Patch 7.2 includes some improvements to our reporting features to add clearer categories for reporting listings in the Premade Group Finder. We’re disappointed to see members of the raiding community participating in behaviors that clearly violate the Terms of Use, and want to be clear that such activities will not be tolerated.


It would be useful to have an in-game option to report these groups if you want us to help you.

Right now the only options for reporting the groups are:
- Offensive Name
- Offensive Description
- Offensive Voice Chat Description
- Offensive Leader name

I don't think any of those cover selling services for real-world currencies.
03/08/2017 06:29 PMPosted by Reondra
The point is

No, sorry, you don't just get to compare two things that are entirely unrelated, one of which is morally and legally trivial, and the other of which is a gross abuse of contract law, and then dodge the question of how they're related by trying to sum up with, "The point is.."

03/08/2017 06:29 PMPosted by Reondra
A man who owned several thousand games on steam got banned for swearing. He lost the ability to play all of thoes games because of the steam TOS.

So he violated a legal agreement he made with Valve, and as such they enforced their rights as defined in that legal agreement which he digitally signed when creating his Steam account. I'd be VERY interested in seeing a source, as I suspect, "Swearing," is a significant downplay of what actually occurred.

03/08/2017 06:29 PMPosted by Reondra
The problem we face is that the current judicial system doesn't understand cyber property yet.

Yeah, they do. They ratified the laws that pertain to digital distribution platforms.

03/08/2017 06:29 PMPosted by Reondra
When you purchase something you have certain inherit rights to that purchase.

It's inherent, and no you don't. When you purchase a physical object, you have certain rights to that physical object. When that object contains digital media, one of the rights you do not have, for example, is the right to copy that digital media from your physical object and distribute it.

When you purchase a game on a digital distribution platform, you are purchasing a license to utilize that product, but that license, just like the physical object, is not without limitations on your rights. If you breach the agreement (which in most cases includes a code of conduct), your rights are forfeit because YOU breached the agreement.
As some players have pointed out, we were indeed very conservative with this initial round of actions, and only issued penalties to a handful of the most egregious offenders who had blatantly and openly violated our terms of service. These are meant to serve as a warning to all players who participate in such activities, as we intend for future actions to be much more comprehensive, and the punishments more severe.
03/08/2017 06:37 PMPosted by Lore
As some players have pointed out, we were indeed very conservative with this initial round of actions, and only issued penalties to a handful of the most egregious offenders who had blatantly and openly violated our terms of service. These are meant to serve as a warning to all players who participate in such activities, as we intend for future actions to be much more comprehensive, and the punishments more severe.


Just gonna throw this out there.

The people that are doing this have been doing it for a long time and know its against ToS. Sending a warning does nothing, bans do something.

Regardless, its heading to the right direction but sadly its too late imo for them to fix it now as it has ran rampant in the PvP scene for YEARS and PvE since MoP.
SO funny to see the "coaches" being upset over blizzards bans.
Blizz owns the company not the coaches or players. They are the only ones rightfully to make money from their product. Keep it blizz ban em all
I agree that while it's been illegal forever, official statements like this have been few and far between. Really appreciate Blizzard putting it out there, just hope they keep the pressure on. 7.2's new LFG report option is another step in the right direction, but it falls on players to actively use it for the worst offenders to be punished.
@Regg

So then you think its ok for a company like blizzard or any other digital media vendor to take back products you already bought? Either you are very stupid or just pretending your missing the point. Either way you are wrong.

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