Vengeance DH Feedback

Class Development
Hey guys. I didn't see any DH threads and plenty of other classes so I figured someone needed to stand up for DH's. If there are any blue's reading this, thank you for taking the time to listen.

There's no question that DH's are the least represented tanking class in Nighthold. A quick look at warcraft logs reveals only ~3000 DH parses. This is about half that of both Blood DK and Prot warriors who sit at around ~6000 parses. Druids sit at the top around 15,000 parses. That's about a 1:5 ratio of DH's to Guardian Druids. As you look at more difficult (and magic damage) fights, the numbers only get worse. There are a whopping 4 Star Augur parses by DH's and 145 by druids. That would be a 1:36 ratio. Only 1 DH has logged a parse on Mythic Elisande.

1. Stats
DH's (among with a few other tanks) don't have good stats to deal with high magic damage fights. All stats seem to work well to deal with physical damage, but few help you consistently survive magic damage.

First up is mastery. Our mastery helps improves Demon Spikes physical damage reduction. Compare this to Guardian druids who get increased health and healing received. On a magic heavy fight I have about 10,000 stat points that are doing me almost no good, while my guardian druid co-tank gets plenty of good use out of his mastery. This problem will only get worse as the expansion progresses and we get more stats. Either all mastery should only effect physical damage, or it should effect both equally. Having mastery also reduce the damage taken during empower wards would be nice. Other possibilities include letting demon spike offer maybe half it's damage reduction in magic damage? We do get the increased attack power from mastery which buffs soul cleave heals, but it's really not enough when compared to the benefits some tanks. Note many of the tanks have this issue with mastery. They all should be looked at.

Crit is another stat that just doesn't help a lot in a magical fight. You can't parry magic damage. The only benefit you get is the chance to crit heal. Unfortunately that is not reliable. We can't be relying on a 25% chance to not die when we need it. In a perfect world tank damage would be slow enough that you could average out the crit chance to heal and be fine. But it's not so it isn't okay. A simple change to make soul cleave heal for an increased amount equal to your crit chance, but lose the ability to crit heal would be very welcome while not directly adding power to the class.

Haste is in an alright spot. It lets us generate more resources and healing in a magic damage environment so it's not as bad as crit and mastery. However, letting it reduce the cooldown of empower wards like demon spikes so it affects magic nad physical damage equally would be very much appreciated.

Vers is fine as it is. Affects both types of damage equally. Unfortuantely this sometimes make it the best stat by a large margin when you know you have to deal with magic damage. Carrying around a bunch of lower ilvl pieces with vers in case you need it isn't very fun.
2. Cooldowns and Abilities

Empower Wards: A 30% reduction on a 20 second cooldown. Druids can keep up 30% reduction 100% of the time, on top of their other strong options. I really don't understand this. It's a nice ability, but when you compare it to Mark of Ursol it just seems depressing. Seeing my cotank keep up his 30% reduction all the time while I have to carefully time and overlap cooldowns to maintain some sort of damage reduction is just frustrating.

Fiery Brand: A good ability that's just made frustrating due to it's main use as the "Oh !@#$" button. The fact that the damage reduction is only applied to one target can be hard to work around. It doesn't help when taking damage from more than 1 target or the elusive "No One"/Enviroment that some damage is programmed as. Honestly I really do love this ability. It just is trying to shore up for for Meta as a damage reduction cooldown.

Metamorphosis: So a lot of progress was made with adding 100% armor and the buff to shear while active. It's a much better ability that doesn't need the leech talent to be useful. However the 100% armor still doesn't help with magic damage. We are to my knowledge the only tank that lacks a straight up "We take less damage" button. Guardian has Survival Instinct. BrewMaster has Fortifying Brew. Blood DK has IBF, Warrior has Shield Wall, Paladins have bubbles and Shield of Righteousness. It really seems Meta should have the function of reducing magic damage in some way. It feels very odd when I blow my big 3 minute cooldown in the midst of a magic damage fight and still die like nothing ever happened. There's no immediate magic damage reduction, and the benefits of increased pain and soul generation just come too late and don't do enough. I really think the developer's were trying to come up with a unique and interesting cooldown that didn't feel like just take less damage. And I admire that. Perhaps let Meta reset the cooldown of Empower Wards and increase the damage reduction to 50%? Obviously only when cast not when you get a proc from the artifact.
3. Artifact

Soul Carver: As an artifact ability it just isn't super satisfying. I never feel good when I hit this except when I'm in the open world and can combo Fiery Brand+Soul Carver to one shot some poor mob. In raids I almost never notice it. It should have some powerful combos. It does fire damage to heal through Charred Warblades. And produces souls to heal and reduce damage via pain bringer. Unfortunately both those artifact traits are just too weak. And the benefits come too late. Every other tank artifact ability gives you an immediate benefit. With ours you need to use it, wait for the souls to spawn, then soul cleave. It has fringe uses, but it feels bad that I mostly end up just using it on CD for DPS or with Fiery Brand for burst DPS on an add.

Charred Warblades: A cool ability that is let down by it's poor tuning. It suffers from low numbers and just massive over healing. I looked at one of my logs from the other week and over Krosus it healed me for a whopping 1.5 million when you took out over healing. That's less than 30% of my max health over an entire fight. I'd really like to see this either buffed to 25% nerfed down to maybe 10% and affect all damage, or coolest of all have it tied with Soul Carver. Something like for 6 seconds after Soul Carver you heal for 100% of fire damage done. Would make it more impactful and boost the use of Soul Carver!

Fueled by Pain: Not much to say but random procs aren't the best for tanks. Can get it when you're not actively tanking. Or when you're running around and pick up a soul fragment. Or when you're topped off and the boss isn't doing much. And that sucks. It's not fun wasting a meta proc at a pointless time. Change it to when you're attacked. That at least removes the procs when someone else is tanking. It makes more sense too! Fueled by Pain should proc when you feel pain (i.e. are attacked) no?

Painbringer: It just feels like this is way undertuned since they removed it stacking past 5. Or perhaps it's balanced around Fracture and feels crappy when you don't have fracture. Either way I'd gladly trade it affecting physical damage for a buff to magic damage reduction. Or make each stack independent but last 8 seconds. As it is, you can't really play around it. You just sometimes have some tiny damage reduction up that's barely impactful. I'd love to be able to micromanage and master this. But at 4 seconds it's just not feasible.
(as an aside it feels crappy to see the uptime of this small buff and look at my druid co-tank who can manage a 100% uptime on a 10% magic damage reduction through Adaptive Fur.)

Obviously I don't expect every issue I mentioned to be changed. But just to have a couple looked at would do wonders for the class I believe.

If you made it this far thanks again for reading. I spent quite a bit of time thinking and writing about this and appreciate your time to read and consider it. If you disagree about something, or think I wasn't being fair in some of my points let's hear about it.
Good post.

I'd like to suggest that the solution to our wasted healing can easily be solved by having it give us a shield for the overhealed value. Obviously it would need a max value such as 10? 15? 25% max hp (so we don't gain a ridiculous shield while we are off tanking).

PS to Blizz: You can accomplish this by making use of the code you used for the Overflowing Mythic+ affix, and changing to benefit us instead of giving a debuff.
umm u do realize you have an ability to deal with magic damage right?

empowered ward...
And also if your lucky there is a magic reduce legendary when your immolation goes off...
I believe its the cloak I shelved for the awesome bubble neck I just got...

Then you have soul fragments you consume which also reduce damage stacking up to 5 times... even if the duration is short....

Also comparing us to the almighty druid is like comparing a healer in pvp to a tank for survivability. Druids get a multiplier to there armor and Extra health when they go bear... it just aint right. Plus they can shape shift and heal and do more damage then us.

our problem is DH vengeance tanks Final talent soulgorger sucks see below...

SoulGorger Is pathetic. This is why.

I spend 2-3 million + artifact power after the first point for each point to get 100 armor. 100 ARMOR. This is the weakest garbage you have ever seen.
Where as DPS get a flat out DPS increase of 5% and then 1% increase each time after.

We tanks get the shaft and dont even get a 1% damage reduction we get 0.30% Physical damage reduction. Its not even All Damage it is just physical damage reduction.
This is what is wrong with our final talent. It should either be based on All damage reduction or changed to something useful for our time and effort we are not being rewarded at all.

https://youtu.be/j7vQLQJgQl0?t=22m28s

As you can see in the video its pretty pathetic the increase and not worth it at all.

I just wanted to correct myself it isnt even 100 armor... ha ha joke on us farming 3 million plus artifact power for 47 armor and 0.21 % physical reduction... so sad...
What sort of cruel joke is that. What dev thought this was a good idea????????????????????????????????????????????????????

So here we got DPSers getting a huge power boost. DH Tanks getting the shaft like usual. Druids are slightly better off because there armor(multiplier when in bear form) is a lot higher then DH tanks in leather... Plate wearers I would assume have a ton more armor as well. Why blizzard Dev do you hate us so much to make us waste our time and effort for no gain?
Just chiming in to agree with these sentiments. I thoroughly enjoy the thematically pleasing DH tank. It however just doesn't cut it. I feel significantly more durable as a blood dk and they're not in a good place either.

Issues

For class that is thematically antimagic, they have weak magic mitigation and far to heavily reliant on RNG procs or uncontrollable resources for defence.

  • Soul Carver, far to weak. Should be a frontal cleave and trigger Fuelled by Pain.
  • Fracture baseline, new talent that buffs empower wards somehow. Making the talent tow all defensive choices. Healing, physical and now magic.
  • Remove rng Fueled by Pain, tie it to soul Carver imo. It's never up when you need it.
  • Metamorphosis, good start with the 100% armour increase. I feel Immolation aura should be buffed whilst in this state or up constantly. And empower wards should be significantly buffed whilst in meta. I am after all, a Demon who share high magic resistances.
  • The self heals are pathetically weak outside Fel Devastation. I use a full pain soul cleave which takes several globals and it heals me for about 300k health, when I'm getting hit for 1+ million damage every couple of seconds.

    Painbringer trait is also so utterly unreliable, it procs at times when you don't even benefit from it and fails to proc when you might actually need it.

    Soul carver is just more souls, which already heal for very little.

    If demonhunter is not going to have the mitigation cd's of a druid or warrior or paladin, it sure as hell should be biffed to have the stamina and self healing capacity of a blood DK.

    So far vengeance DH just feels like a gimped DK tank with a leap.
    03/03/2017 04:29 PMPosted by Tinieblas
    The self heals are pathetically weak outside Fel Devastation. I use a full pain soul cleave which takes several globals and it heals me for about 300k health, when I'm getting hit for 1+ million damage every couple of seconds.

    Painbringer trait is also so utterly unreliable, it procs at times when you don't even benefit from it and fails to proc when you might actually need it.

    Soul carver is just more souls, which already heal for very little.

    If demonhunter is not going to have the mitigation cd's of a druid or warrior or paladin, it sure as hell should be biffed to have the stamina and self healing capacity of a blood DK.

    So far vengeance DH just feels like a gimped DK tank with a leap.

    yea but were a gimped DK with a sigil death grip..
    I agree totally with the too much damage and my video in my above post shows why. We just dont have good damage reduction. if you look at the video you can see even for our final talent we are only getting 0.21 damage reduction per point after the first one. its not all damage either its just physical damage reduction.
    This is not right seeing how DPS get a flat out whole 1% per point increase for all there damage. This also makes it terrible as a tank as there is a huge disparity between DPS of a tank to DPS of a DPSer.
    But our mitigation is worse off then some classes as you can see from equally geared DPSers they have more physical damage reduction which makes zero sense at all for we are the tanks not them. take shamans for instance a same geared Shaman at ilvl 880 has enough armor to get 53% physical damage reduction were as we are at 43%. And its different with each dps class.
    And as A tank I think its pathetic big deal I have a few buttons to mitigate some more damage. They have roughly 90% more damage then me. This is very apparent in PVP compared to PVE where the DPS will sometimes just go and run and tank mobs on you.
    I also posted in another thread. We're fine in the physical damage received dept. We're not fine in magic damage received and DPS.
    I think that a solution would be to make demon spikes work on magic damage too.
    bump
    I'd like to suggest:
    Soul Barrier: remove cool down. That will help with magic damage without being OP. Just for comparison, guardians Mark of Ursok also hasn't got a CD.
    Demonic infusion: Add 10% physical damage mitigation to demon spikes to this talent also.
    This talent feels underwhelming compared to SB and this change would help against heavy physical damage (botanist P3). You either have soul Barrier or this
    Last resort: lower cd to 6min, in line with dagger trinket, that for all reasonable purposes is better since you also can pick any talent - even last resort - and have both effects.
    We also would need passive magic reduction baked into demon form as it is our big tank CD.
    Thank you for the suggestions and discussion.

    In today’s 7.2 PTR update, we’re testing the following change:

    • Demonic Wards now reduces all damage taken by 20% (was 10%), and increases Armor by 75% (was 120%).

    What this amounts to is a passive reduction of all incoming damage, combined with a lowered defenses against physical damage, leaving almost no change to incoming physical, but a substantial new mitigation against magic.

    Your feedback has been very helpful, so again, thank you!
    03/14/2017 05:53 PMPosted by Kaivax
    Thank you for the suggestions and discussion.

    In today’s 7.2 PTR update, we’re testing the following change:

    • Demonic Wards now reduces all damage taken by 20% (was 10%), and increases Armor by 75% (was 120%).

    What this amounts to is a passive reduction of all incoming damage, combined with a lowered defenses against physical damage, leaving almost no change to incoming physical, but a substantial new mitigation against magic.

    Your feedback has been very helpful, so again, thank you!


    Now there's only BDK to answer!
    VDH had as much of a weakness to physical spikes as magic damage ;/, don't see why the 10% couldn't be allowed to go through for the physical as well....
    03/14/2017 05:53 PMPosted by Kaivax
    Thank you for the suggestions and discussion.

    In today’s 7.2 PTR update, we’re testing the following change:

    • Demonic Wards now reduces all damage taken by 20% (was 10%), and increases Armor by 75% (was 120%).

    What this amounts to is a passive reduction of all incoming damage, combined with a lowered defenses against physical damage, leaving almost no change to incoming physical, but a substantial new mitigation against magic.

    Your feedback has been very helpful, so again, thank you!


    Well i'm glad to see Vengeance is getting some attention at least but this feels to me like putting a band-aid on 1 problem in a sea of other unfortunate problems so hopefully more love than just that is coming.

    Although for transparency I should state that I don't play Vengeance in raid really so I might just be talking nonsense.
    03/14/2017 05:53 PMPosted by Kaivax
    Thank you for the suggestions and discussion.

    In today’s 7.2 PTR update, we’re testing the following change:

    • Demonic Wards now reduces all damage taken by 20% (was 10%), and increases Armor by 75% (was 120%).

    What this amounts to is a passive reduction of all incoming damage, combined with a lowered defenses against physical damage, leaving almost no change to incoming physical, but a substantial new mitigation against magic.

    Your feedback has been very helpful, so again, thank you!


    I really appreciate a response Kaivax. I know you guys don't always get a fair shake from these boards, so I appreciate you taking the time to let me know what you guys are thinking.

    While I agree this is a good step in the right direction, I'd like to ask you to please convey/ask the developers how they feel about Soul Cleave scaling. After writing this post I decided to really spend my last raid considering where I felt helpless/unable to do my duty as a tank. The top moment for me occurred during Krosus. The thought occured that my soul cleaves felt like they were doing almost nothing to stem the incoming damage. The damage frequently approaches one million DPS by the time the other tank takes it. My soul cleave heals me for about 500k non-crit. Considering the amount of pain required and the incoming damage we're expected to manage I really feel at the mercy of the healers to spam me during these moments.

    I understand that I shouldn't be expected the ability to outheal all outcoming damage myself. But Krosus (and a couple other high magic damage parts) feel like I'm helpless to control my fate. I really do hope that this changes help! But I do fear that there is a scaling problem present that will not be fixed by this issue.

    Soul Cleave actually feels great in M+ where the burst potential is relatively low. There I feel regularly hitting soul cleave along with mixing cooldowns offers me great surviability. This means if a healer is busy topping off the rest of the group, or is LOSed or out or range for a short period of time I still feel in control of my life. I have the toolset to survive and if I die it's my fault. However in a raid setting where you may be taking 20% of your max health in magic damage a second these tools are just outclassed.
    i'm horrible at math so i wont even try, but lowering our armor increase from 120% to 75% seems a bit extreme, even for gaining 10% extra damage reduction. granted, i know it had to be lowered since we're getting that extra reduction, but isn't taking 45% off a bit much? being a bit better dealing with magic damage shouldn't warrant punishing our physical reduction otherwise it's just trading 1 issue for another.
    03/14/2017 05:53 PMPosted by Kaivax
    Thank you for the suggestions and discussion.

    In today’s 7.2 PTR update, we’re testing the following change:

    • Demonic Wards now reduces all damage taken by 20% (was 10%), and increases Armor by 75% (was 120%).

    What this amounts to is a passive reduction of all incoming damage, combined with a lowered defenses against physical damage, leaving almost no change to incoming physical, but a substantial new mitigation against magic.

    Your feedback has been very helpful, so again, thank you!


    HUZZAH!! And there was much rejoicing. :)
    03/14/2017 09:23 PMPosted by Rilectra
    i'm horrible at math so i wont even try, but lowering our armor increase from 120% to 75% seems a bit extreme, even for gaining 10% extra damage reduction. granted, i know it had to be lowered since we're getting that extra reduction, but isn't taking 45% off a bit much? being a bit better dealing with magic damage shouldn't warrant punishing our physical reduction otherwise it's just trading 1 issue for another.


    If my quick math is right we're either breaking even or slightly ahead on physical. The flat reduction also works on more things than armor so technically it's a buff.

    Now we just need an AoE DPS boost for DH. Need Soul Cleave to do more damage. For costing 60% of our resource bar the damage is REALLY low. Making cleave gain damage for each enemy hit by it seems like the good choice to me.
    03/14/2017 09:23 PMPosted by Rilectra
    i'm horrible at math so i wont even try, but lowering our armor increase from 120% to 75% seems a bit extreme, even for gaining 10% extra damage reduction. granted, i know it had to be lowered since we're getting that extra reduction, but isn't taking 45% off a bit much? being a bit better dealing with magic damage shouldn't warrant punishing our physical reduction otherwise it's just trading 1 issue for another.


    Napkin math, say with 120% armor we had 50% damage reduction to physical. With 75% armor we have 40% damage reduction to physical. We lost 10% physical damage reduction, but gained 10% reduction to all damage, for a net loss of 0% physical, and a net gain of 10% magical damage reduction.

    We wont be solo tanking mythic aug, but we will die 10% later on krosus.

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