Concise Prot Warrior Feedback

Class Development
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03/14/2017 08:45 AMPosted by Rottingutz
I'm going to stick it out with prot. I just hope things start looking a bit less grim in the coming days. The changes proposed in 7.2 are laughable at best.


What changes proposed in 7.2? There are none.
03/14/2017 08:45 AMPosted by Rottingutz
I'm going to stick it out with prot. I just hope things start looking a bit less grim in the coming days. The changes proposed in 7.2 are laughable at best.


I'm with you. I haven't let anything sway me from my warrior in 12 years, certainly not FOTM like Guardian, but if TOS is a raid full of Krosus and Star Augur, I won't be hurting my raid just for the sake of "my first love," in my warrior.

Hopefully these guys pull their heads out and realize staying the course will put Warriors out to pasture next raid. Let's hope not.
03/14/2017 10:26 AMPosted by Drako
What changes proposed in 7.2? There are none.


5 more seconds duration on Spell Reflect, bro!

Of course every other tank, including druids, is getting something new too, since it's an Artifact thing, which means that tank balance isn't going to at all change.
03/14/2017 10:40 AMPosted by Quard
03/14/2017 10:26 AMPosted by Drako
What changes proposed in 7.2? There are none.


5 more seconds duration on Spell Reflect, bro!

Of course every other tank, including druids, is getting something new too, since it's an Artifact thing, which means that tank balance isn't going to at all change.


But that's not a change as such, that's an artifact trait.

I really hoped blizzard wouldn't go this rout to fix prot but it seems 7.2 is coming sooner than later.
03/14/2017 10:43 AMPosted by Drako
03/14/2017 10:40 AMPosted by Quard
...

5 more seconds duration on Spell Reflect, bro!

Of course every other tank, including druids, is getting something new too, since it's an Artifact thing, which means that tank balance isn't going to at all change.


But that's not a change as such, that's an artifact trait.

I really hoped blizzard wouldn't go this rout to fix prot but it seems 7.2 is coming sooner than later.


No, I believe the artifact change is reduced (stacking) damage taken on Thunder clap (up to 5%)?
03/14/2017 10:56 AMPosted by Hellonewman
03/14/2017 10:43 AMPosted by Drako
...

But that's not a change as such, that's an artifact trait.

I really hoped blizzard wouldn't go this rout to fix prot but it seems 7.2 is coming sooner than later.


No, I believe the artifact change is reduced (stacking) damage taken on Thunder clap (up to 5%)?


They both are. One to reduce damage taken via TClap and one to extend the duration of reflect.
As before, we thank you for the good feedback.

The Nighthold has put a spotlight on magic mitigation more than previous raids, and we’ve seen how that resulted in Protection Warriors (who are typically a very well-rounded tank spec) falling a bit behind other tanks as a result.

Today’s new 7.2 PTR build includes the following change:

Warrior
  • Gleaming Scales (Artifact Trait) increases Spell Reflection magical damage reduction by 20%.

Gleaming Scales is a new Artifact Trait that’s coming in 7.2, and the intention here is to provide Warriors with a way to keep up with incoming spells in encounters that are magic-heavy, such as Spell Augur Etraeus or Krosus in The Nighthold.

We’re also testing a new change to the Protection Legendary belt Thundergod’s Vigor that triples the rate at which your Thunder Claps reduce the cooldown on Demoralizing Shout.

We continue to analyze and consider everything you’re telling us here (and elsewhere!), so keep it coming. Thank you!
03/14/2017 05:47 PMPosted by Kaivax
As before, we thank you for the good feedback.

The Nighthold has put a spotlight on magic mitigation more than previous raids, and we’ve seen how that resulted in Protection Warriors (who are typically a very well-rounded tank spec) falling a bit behind other tanks as a result.

Today’s new 7.2 PTR build includes the following change:

Warrior
  • Gleaming Scales (Artifact Trait) increases Spell Reflection magical damage reduction by 20%.

Gleaming Scales is a new Artifact Trait that’s coming in 7.2, and the intention here is to provide Warriors with a way to keep up with incoming spells in encounters that are magic-heavy, such as Spell Augur Etraeus or Krosus in The Nighthold.

We’re also testing a new change to the Protection Legendary belt Thundergod’s Vigor that triples the rate at which your Thunder Claps reduce the cooldown on Demoralizing Shout.

We continue to analyze and consider everything you’re telling us here (and elsewhere!), so keep it coming. Thank you!


Hi Kaivax, thank you for the update, but does this mean that the original effect of Gleaming Scales (+5s for Spell Reflect) has been replaced with this new effect, or are they combined?

I believe the primary concern for us is the constant flow of magic damage, which cannot be mitigated well enough by Ignore Pain alone. Spell Reflect only helps to mitigate it 20% of the time (5s with 25s cooldown), that's why some suggestions include an extra magic damage reduction baked into Ignore Pain, or some other form of small but sustainable percentage based magic damage reduction.

Using Devastator, my Ignore Pain only goes up to about 800-900k each full cast, which gets completely obliterated by a single cast from Heroic Star Augur, or 5-6 stack DoT tick from Krosus. I can only imagine the damage being taken by tanks in Mythic versions of the fight.
03/14/2017 05:47 PMPosted by Kaivax
As before, we thank you for the good feedback.

The Nighthold has put a spotlight on magic mitigation more than previous raids, and we’ve seen how that resulted in Protection Warriors (who are typically a very well-rounded tank spec) falling a bit behind other tanks as a result.

Today’s new 7.2 PTR build includes the following change:

Warrior
  • Gleaming Scales (Artifact Trait) increases Spell Reflection magical damage reduction by 20%.

Gleaming Scales is a new Artifact Trait that’s coming in 7.2, and the intention here is to provide Warriors with a way to keep up with incoming spells in encounters that are magic-heavy, such as Spell Augur Etraeus or Krosus in The Nighthold.

We’re also testing a new change to the Protection Legendary belt Thundergod’s Vigor that triples the rate at which your Thunder Claps reduce the cooldown on Demoralizing Shout.

We continue to analyze and consider everything you’re telling us here (and elsewhere!), so keep it coming. Thank you!


Still only 5 seconds, but at what? 50%? Seems like the uptime compared to other tanks is garbage.

Ignore Pain still sucks, by the way.

And whose idea is it to require someone to have a legendary to improve their damage reduction? Hello? Those legendaries go away you know? Warriors need improvements baked into talents or baseline, not items.
You just don't get it do you?

There is a fundamental gap in how tanks rank atm with one very clear winner.

Small fixes like this are not the solution.

HOORAY yet more needed class power built into a legendary instead of the class.

We haven't been well rounded since the NH nerfs and won't be until the scaling issues with IP are addressed.

This change to spell reflect puts us on par with a Druids basically passive magic damage reduction only 20% of the time.... Whilst still having less health, less physical damage reduction and less cool-downs.
03/14/2017 05:47 PMPosted by Kaivax
As before, we thank you for the good feedback.

The Nighthold has put a spotlight on magic mitigation more than previous raids, and we’ve seen how that resulted in Protection Warriors (who are typically a very well-rounded tank spec) falling a bit behind other tanks as a result.

Today’s new 7.2 PTR build includes the following change:

Warrior
  • Gleaming Scales (Artifact Trait) increases Spell Reflection magical damage reduction by 20%.

Gleaming Scales is a new Artifact Trait that’s coming in 7.2, and the intention here is to provide Warriors with a way to keep up with incoming spells in encounters that are magic-heavy, such as Spell Augur Etraeus or Krosus in The Nighthold.

We’re also testing a new change to the Protection Legendary belt Thundergod’s Vigor that triples the rate at which your Thunder Claps reduce the cooldown on Demoralizing Shout.

We continue to analyze and consider everything you’re telling us here (and elsewhere!), so keep it coming. Thank you!


Do you really? Because no one asked for more mitigation on spell reflect.

I don't know how you can read this thread and come to that conclusion.

The first problem is that you're using artifact traits to fix fundamental design flaws with the spec.

The second problem is that spell reflect will still only be active for maybe 20% of any given fight when we need up time in the 80% range.

Spell Reflect could mitigate 100% magic damage and it still wouldn't fix any problems.

The third and fourth problem is that Ignore Pain still scales horrendously and prot warriors still have a pathetic hp pool.

The fifth problem is you're using a legendary to fix fundamental design flaws with the spec. Legendaries that you can only get based on RNG... something that is pretty much universally despised.

This change in no way fixes any of the issues the spec has. This can't even be considered a band aid because it's trying to "fix" the problem in such an awkward way that doesn't even come close to the core issue. This is truly baffling.
03/14/2017 05:47 PMPosted by Kaivax
As before, we thank you for the good feedback.

The Nighthold has put a spotlight on magic mitigation more than previous raids, and we’ve seen how that resulted in Protection Warriors (who are typically a very well-rounded tank spec) falling a bit behind other tanks as a result.

Today’s new 7.2 PTR build includes the following change:

Warrior
  • Gleaming Scales (Artifact Trait) increases Spell Reflection magical damage reduction by 20%.

Gleaming Scales is a new Artifact Trait that’s coming in 7.2, and the intention here is to provide Warriors with a way to keep up with incoming spells in encounters that are magic-heavy, such as Spell Augur Etraeus or Krosus in The Nighthold.

We’re also testing a new change to the Protection Legendary belt Thundergod’s Vigor that triples the rate at which your Thunder Claps reduce the cooldown on Demoralizing Shout.

We continue to analyze and consider everything you’re telling us here (and elsewhere!), so keep it coming. Thank you!


Hey Kaivax, these changes are nice, but the real problem for Prot Warriors is the laughable scaling on Ignore Pain and our pitiful health pools. Putting Devastator and Indomitable on the same tier was not a good decision. I sort of get why you did it, you wanted our choice of talents to feel meaningful, however both are such huge quality of life increases that choosing one over the other leaves us unsatisfied (to say the least) with both choices.

As a potential fix, the rage per auto attack portion could be added, in full or in part, to the active Devastate, and Devastator could be moved down to the DPS tier. Bake in Renewed Fury or Best Served Cold. Add a talent to the survivability tier that is actually related to survivability. Something that changes up Spell Reflect would be good here. Barring that, the health portion of Indomitable could be baked in and made baseline, and instead of it now just increasing Ignore Pain by 25%, it could also reduce incoming magic damage.

Ignore Pain is a cool idea, but it really is not working very well in its current incarnation. The scaling is just too low, my Warrior at 840 had roughly the same shield as he does at 890. The nerfs you guys made in the first days of Emerald Nightmare should really be reconsidered.

I would also strongly urge your team to not go forward with the changes to Thundergod's Vigor. Loading such massive QoL changes onto a Legendary, which will go away after this expansion, rather than examining the root cause of discomfort among Prot Warriors, will only increase the disparity of those with good Legendaries and those without them. This should be a talent so everyone can have access to it. Our problem with damage mitigation isn't because Demoralizing Shout isn't up enough, it's because our active mitigation doesn't scale well enough.

Hope to see you back here soon. Thanks!
03/14/2017 06:20 PMPosted by Xuanney
Hi Kaivax, thank you for the update, but does this mean that the original effect of Gleaming Scales (+5s for Spell Reflect) has been replaced with this new effect, or are they combined?

This is my question as well.

even if it has both effects I still have concerns of a 50% damage reduction to magic that's only up 10 seconds out of every 25. so it'll still be very spikey when it's not up. I'd rather have a longer duration of 30% than a short duration of 50. bosses like krosus and star auger are pefect examples of where you need damage smoothing not spike damage reduction followed by spike damage.

So i suggest instead of adding 20% to it. make it something like "increases duration by 5 seconds and reduces cooldown by 10"

disable the cd reduction in pvp to avoid it being a problem there.

03/14/2017 06:55 PMPosted by Zarcistirra
Hey Kaivax, these changes are nice, but the real problem for Prot Warriors is the laughable scaling on Ignore Pain and our pitiful health pools

This too. making bear comparison again. they have 100% up time on 30% magic DR based on better incoming rage generation. and bigger health pools. we have crappy health pool and a low up time on magic DR and an ignore pain that is eaten by melee swings so it doesn't really do much for the magic.
Wtf even is this. We list our problems that need to be addressed and sure the new trait is ok, but like wtf.
I'm going to re-quote you here, because I'm glad to see it's finally been acknowledged by at least one bright individual on your staff:

03/14/2017 05:47 PMPosted by Kaivax

The Nighthold has put a spotlight on magic mitigation more than previous raids, and we’ve seen how that resulted in Protection Warriors (who are typically a very well-rounded tank spec) falling a bit behind other tanks as a result.


I'm honestly just tired of posting again and again and feeling like you guys don't get it, because I think maybe you guys kind of are now? But the problem is with your guys thought process is giving us us buffs by the way of items and artifacts -- they leave us after the expansion!!!

And seriously, Guardians have 100% uptime on magic reduction, why is ours 20%? You guys need to just acknowledge they're incredible, and you're giving us tidbits of what they have, like, what the hell? You guys are pointed in the right direction, but please, try harder.
Let just hope you will adress our scaling issues with Ignore Pain, because this is going to be bad in ToS for Protection Warriors if we doesn't get a buff to Ignore Pain.
A

03/14/2017 05:47 PMPosted by Kaivax
As before, we thank you for the good feedback.

The Nighthold has put a spotlight on magic mitigation more than previous raids, and we’ve seen how that resulted in Protection Warriors (who are typically a very well-rounded tank spec) falling a bit behind other tanks as a result.

Today’s new 7.2 PTR build includes the following change:

Warrior
  • Gleaming Scales (Artifact Trait) increases Spell Reflection magical damage reduction by 20%.

Gleaming Scales is a new Artifact Trait that’s coming in 7.2, and the intention here is to provide Warriors with a way to keep up with incoming spells in encounters that are magic-heavy, such as Spell Augur Etraeus or Krosus in The Nighthold.

We’re also testing a new change to the Protection Legendary belt Thundergod’s Vigor that triples the rate at which your Thunder Claps reduce the cooldown on Demoralizing Shout.

We continue to analyze and consider everything you’re telling us here (and elsewhere!), so keep it coming. Thank you!
A 20% more damage reduction on SR won't change the fact that it has a insane long cd which will always be trouble on fights with constant magic damage. If this is going to remain like that, we are going to need an IP nerf revert or some kind of better scaling for it.
03/14/2017 06:20 PMPosted by Xuanney
Hi Kaivax, thank you for the update, but does this mean that the original effect of Gleaming Scales (+5s for Spell Reflect) has been replaced with this new effect, or are they combined?


Replaced.
03/14/2017 06:27 PMPosted by Kranik
You just don't get it do you?

There is a fundamental gap in how tanks rank atm with one very clear winner.

Small fixes like this are not the solution.

HOORAY yet more needed class power built into a legendary instead of the class.

We haven't been well rounded since the NH nerfs and won't be until the scaling issues with IP are addressed.

This change to spell reflect puts us on par with a Druids basically passive magic damage reduction only 20% of the time.... Whilst still having less health, less physical damage reduction and less cool-downs.


Different classes are different. I am a Guardian druid, you are a Prot warrior. What do you want all tanks to be homogenized to having different names/slight variations to the same abilities? Get over yourself.

IP doesn't need anymore buffs or it'll be Emerald nightmare warriors all over again never dropping below 90% HP and healers being able to afk to get pizza mid mythic-boss attempt. At least guardian druids lose HP unlike when warriors were in that state.

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