Making money off WoW

General Discussion
I read the post about those raiders being banned for selling "real money" runs, and I was wondering why that is such a big deal. I know it is against the terms of service, and maybe that should be enough, but I'm curious as to how this hurts Blizzard. They don't sell a similar service, so they aren't losing money. Both seller and buyer are still paying sub fees. People on twitch make money off wow. People who win arena tournaments make money off wow. How is selling a raid run such a bad thing?

I don't participate in any of the above activities, I just want to understand this better. Thanks!
It's an easy way for scammers to rip players off. Sometimes, to make the dangers even worse, players are cajoled into paying to have their toons piloted through difficult content, which means giving a stranger access to their account.

Both of these can lead to disastrous outcomes which Blizzard is then expected to fix. So Blizzard try to minimize the occurrence of such disasters by banning the behaviours leading to them.

It's like how in some areas you can be fined for leaving your car unlocked in a public place with the keys in the ignition.
03/12/2017 11:03 AMPosted by Feenzr
I read the post about those raiders being banned for selling "real money" runs, and I was wondering why that is such a big deal. I know it is against the terms of service, and maybe that should be enough, but I'm curious as to how this hurts Blizzard. They don't sell a similar service, so they aren't losing money. Both seller and buyer are still paying sub fees. People on twitch make money off wow. People who win arena tournaments make money off wow. How is selling a raid run such a bad thing?

I don't participate in any of the above activities, I just want to understand this better. Thanks!


Because "pay to win" devalues items and achievements in the game so much as to have the potential of killing the game overnight.
So many guilds on my main's realm do this. They're no better than bots in my opinion, but like bots, many still do it and get away with it.
03/12/2017 11:34 AMPosted by Tightwork
03/12/2017 11:03 AMPosted by Feenzr
I read the post about those raiders being banned for selling "real money" runs, and I was wondering why that is such a big deal. I know it is against the terms of service, and maybe that should be enough, but I'm curious as to how this hurts Blizzard. They don't sell a similar service, so they aren't losing money. Both seller and buyer are still paying sub fees. People on twitch make money off wow. People who win arena tournaments make money off wow. How is selling a raid run such a bad thing?

I don't participate in any of the above activities, I just want to understand this better. Thanks!


Because "pay to win" devalues items and achievements in the game so much as to have the potential of killing the game overnight.


You can already PTW though to a pretty decent degree? Buy token > sell for gold > use gold for M EN carry, H NH carry etc. The whole link ach for invite us pretty dead already with gold carries, that the only part that matters now would be the date you got it, which I think can be faked anyway with that add-on or whatever? Doesn't really seem to matter one way or another. I don't buy 'em myself though.
It encourages an influx of people who aren't interested in actually playing the game for fun, only using it to make money. The implications for that on the game are that it tends to ruin the AH for "honest" players, as well as encourage people to take advantage of each other in a mean spirited way, or do things that aren't fun over and over because they feel they can make money doing it (which burns people out on the game).

There was one person on Stormrage in HFC (can't name 'em obviously) that used to offer geared players anywhere from 3-10k to come and help out with a carry run. To a lot of people this seemed like a sweet deal, so they came along and helped and got paid, with no knowledge of where the gold came from or why. Turns out he was being paid in real-life money, and I don't know how he was always able to convert some of that into gold to payout his carriers that he pugged off Trade Chat, but I'm assuming that's what was going on. (And once you realized people were paying 300k for these runs in Trade Chat, the dots connected and you realized he was ripping off all the carriers lol)
...And then a lot of people got burnt out from raiding because they felt like they had to run HFC so much.

Might not be the best example, but it's an inkling of the kind of social changes that would happen to the game imo
03/12/2017 11:03 AMPosted by Feenzr
. I know it is against the terms of service, and maybe that should be enough, but I'm curious as to how this hurts Blizzard.


If someone stiffs you on a run you paid for, who are you going to complain to? It is going to be Blizzard that has to field all of those complaints. People will expect Blizzard to fix the problem and either give them their run or give them their money back. Blizzard is the people that will get blamed for not better policing their game when they refuse to do either of those things.

In the end it would waste Blizzard's time and give the game a bad rep.
I view this as a symptom to a problem, not the actual problem itself.

The problem is that you are forced to do, what is for most people, nigh impossible content to get the "best" gear. Let's face it here, the Human Race is not an enlightened species. Did Lance Armstrong just be happy with being "pretty good?" Nope! He doped himself into (and out of) the record books. Doping is apparently rampant in many pro sports.

The actual problem is two fold, overly competitive players and the "Must do hardest content to get best gear" dogma. The result is game disruption in the form of overly geared people taking dungeon slots from their "non doping" counterparts, and the increased CS load on Blizzard when these deals go south.

"Wanting a challenging game" is a laudable goal, but it flies in the face of the human perchance to cheat and seek advantage wherever possible. Do you design a game for the "Games must be hard" crowd, and watch the rampant cheating, or do you tone it down some to at least slow that up?

I would expect that the vast majority of WoW players don't give a flying fig about what "Mythic raid guild" got "first kill" on a boss, but having that Mythic gear would sure make their casual normal runs easier. Which of these groups should Blizzard be catering to?
I also think that making cash off of Blizz platform and those making cash
non-reporting the income at some point the Blizz lawyers would be up to their eyeballs with the IRS.

Blizz would also be a part of a black market cash income scheme
which would be a big no no for any NYSE company....
It kills the game.

Players will buy into the consensual mutual mass hallucination that all these items & progression matter - if it's 'fair' in the sense that players have to get out there and earn it.

If you shatter that illusion by making it where you can just trade IRL money for virtual accomplishments - players will simply dump the whole hallucination and keep that IRL money for other things.

.. and that kills the game.
I'm curious why this wasn't more widespread during classic WoW. Back then it was 40 player raids, so each individual player mattered less to completing the raid than nowadays. And people were even more obsessed with having the best gear back then.
I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of the raider who got banned. We live in a world today where a lot of young people don't have marketable skills. Maybe for some of these young people, WoW is the only thing they are truly good at. To the point where they can make some extra cash off it. Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Again, I don't do this sort of thing, but I just know there's a small fraction of people out there for whom the only thing they care about are video games. Should we quash that? I mean, how different is that from people who choose to make money doing something like painting or playing music?

Just asking questions.
03/12/2017 12:38 PMPosted by Luzcruz
I'm curious why this wasn't more widespread during classic WoW. Back then it was 40 player raids, so each individual player mattered less to completing the raid than nowadays. And people were even more obsessed with having the best gear back then.

There were some carries for gold, back then. Was generally rare though.

Also because gearing never stopped in clasic. You essentially started it seriously with scholo/strat/ubrs, guilds started it with ony/molten core... and then it was overworlds, bwl, aq40, and onto naxx. Most raid guilds couldn't really spare bringing people along for gold - they almost always needed to gear up their own people first. DKP was annoying as hell.
Its a customer service nightmare, same as when there was more gold selling (before Blizzard did it themselves.)

If a party is scammed, who do you think they go to? They go to Blizzard. Blizzard was not involved in the transaction, but now the players would be petitioning them to solve the problem.

So they forbid doing it, which solves the problem for them.

People on twitch/youtube don't make money off of Wow subscribers paying them money, so it isn't a Blizzard customer service problem. If someone had a problem with the guy on twitch, it would be a twitch customer service problem.

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