A world not built for you: Suramar

General Discussion
Earlier today I came across this interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCfGT-oapL4

Tl;dw: the author of the video discussed the world, quests and characters of Baldur's Gate 2. They were not designed for the convenience of the player, but rather for the immersion of the world.
- Merchant and important NPCs are scattered throughout a city with seemingly no sense of order and logic.
- Quests that have multiple approach and does not fail player if they doesn't follow the precise steps required.
- Followers that judges you based on your action and does not act as clueless AI following you no matter what you do.

In the context of WoW, I feel like the game has been designed in such a way that the convenience of the players are the top priority. Over the year we see such streamlining of almost every aspect of the game. NPCs giving out quests are always in a quest hub near a flight point, profession vendors are all in the same corner of a city, gear drop from boss should be equipped right away with little preparation ("Reforging takes away time from a raid", but that's another can of worm), etc. The experience of WoW has become too convenient that it comes with the cost of immersion. There is little sense of discovery in the world.

However, when it comes to Suramar, I think this is one of the most immerse zone that the devs have created in a long time. The whole zone feels alive within their own world. There are a lot of things to discover.
- There are plenty of quests if you travel the zone and not just depend on Thalyssa to hand you new quests.
- The city area is full of guards. I think it adds a lot to the immersion. It's not your city, it's a city that is occupied by the Legion. There are guards everywhere, especially in the noble area. It makes sense for you to not able to run around everywhere like you own the place (as you progress the zone, it becomes increasingly easier for you to navigate the city, which again, makes sense).

Suramar brings a lot of role-playing enjoyment and immersion to me, something that I think WoW is sorely lacking. I want to compliment the devs for a step in the right (imo) direction in zone design and I hope they continue to make more interesting zone in the future, even if it comes to the cost of player convenience.
I agree.

"It's not your city, it's a city that is occupied by the Legion."

That sums it up so damn well. Well said!
The amazing design in Suramar is just another reason I think there needs to be a Suramar BG added at some point.

It's the perfect urban warfare environment.
From a story perspective, Suramar is good.

But sorry, the immersion is not worth it when the gameplay that comes with it is "stealth around all day and if you get caught you now have to run 30 miles until they all leash so you can restealth and try again".

I think I would have liked it more if Class Order Hall Campaigns revolved around the different ways of dealing with things in Suramar. Rogues could get what we all got. Everyone else should have been different. Maybe more of the city initially would be neutral to us so that such heavy use of stealth and blending mechanics would not be needed for it to make sense.
03/22/2017 12:11 AMPosted by Itharri
From a story perspective, Suramar is good.

But sorry, the immersion is not worth it when the gameplay that comes with it is "stealth around all day and if you get caught you now have to run 30 miles until they all leash so you can restealth and try again".


You have tools to overcome the mobs in Suramar: disguise, using the baskets, hook to the roof or just simply kill the guards. You can't simply run around in an enemy zone as if it's your house. Having catered to convenience is what make other zones boring, because you can ignore everything almost all the time.
03/22/2017 12:22 AMPosted by Clalina
03/22/2017 12:11 AMPosted by Itharri
From a story perspective, Suramar is good.

But sorry, the immersion is not worth it when the gameplay that comes with it is "stealth around all day and if you get caught you now have to run 30 miles until they all leash so you can restealth and try again".


You have tools to overcome the mobs in Suramar: disguise, using the baskets, hook to the roof or just simply kill the guards. You can't simply run around in an enemy zone as if it's your house. Having catered to convenience is what make other zones boring, because you can ignore everything almost all the time.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy danger.

Danger is fine.

I don't like Stealth mechanics.

The city is designed with stealth in mind, and while there are escapes in certain areas, if you aren't near enough to one of them, the mob density is designed so that failing your stealthing around results in near guaranteed death if you don't leash them or overgear it.
03/22/2017 12:28 AMPosted by Itharri
03/22/2017 12:22 AMPosted by Clalina
...

You have tools to overcome the mobs in Suramar: disguise, using the baskets, hook to the roof or just simply kill the guards. You can't simply run around in an enemy zone as if it's your house. Having catered to convenience is what make other zones boring, because you can ignore everything almost all the time.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy danger.

Danger is fine.

I don't like Stealth mechanics.

The city is designed with stealth in mind, and while there are escapes in certain areas, if you aren't near enough to one of them, the mob density is designed so that failing your stealthing around results in near guaranteed death if you don't leash them or overgear it.


http://www.wowhead.com/npc=107467/jacin#sells

there seriously needs to be a small quest or something to point to this vendor... everyone complaining apparently has never heard of the kid.
Itharri has a point: and after all, there are convenient portals everywhere in Suramar. No zone has every had so many portals. That's not really an argument that Suramar ditched convenience.

I'd say the setting and multi-part story is what makes Suramar work as well as it does far more than the Nightborne masquerade, which did get old quickly before you could punch the elites in the face.
03/22/2017 12:38 AMPosted by Skyshadow
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=107467/jacin#sells

there seriously needs to be a small quest or something to point to this vendor... everyone complaining apparently has never heard of the kid.

Doesn't exactly make the mechanic for fun or interesting to me, its just another tool to deal with it.
I'm honestly not a fan of most of the stealth stuff.

'Oh hey, stealth detecting elites EVERYWHERE and if you aggro one or two, their pals all join the party. Gods help you if you run.'
Don't get the problem people have with "stealth" in Suramar. I learned pretty quickly how to navigate the guys that break stealth, it's only tough in Eastern Suramar. You can run through a good chunk of their bubble and not break disguise. Not to mention the mobs are CCable if you need to pass. And there's safe zones(canals) that are usually accessible when you need to get away.
Stealth?

I just murder everything. They can't snitch on your disguise if they are dead.
03/22/2017 02:29 AMPosted by Maleficious
Stealth?

I just murder everything. They can't snitch on your disguise if they are dead.


Unless they have their own stealth guys that observe your fight and report it to their superiors.
Old school RPG mechanics have their merit, but I think there are reasons from moving away from them.

However, I do agree that sometimes modern RPGs have moved too far away.

I still found Suramar annoying though. I'm not sure if the devs had what you were saying in mind when they designed Suramar. I think you may just be looking at something that happens to align with your opinions. I also think a lot of older RPGs didn't have the mechanics you mentioned intentionally as well, but I can't say for certain.

When we look back at things, we can place as many afterthoughts on it as we want.
03/22/2017 02:42 AMPosted by Tuskini
03/22/2017 02:29 AMPosted by Maleficious
Stealth?

I just murder everything. They can't snitch on your disguise if they are dead.


Unless they have their own stealth guys that observe your fight and report it to their superiors.

But they can't have stealth guys when everyone who dies explodes, and when everyone dies, they all explode and people in stealth will be revealed.

Then I will yell at them, "WHAT ARE YOU HIDING?" before I kill them too so they can explode.

Everything explodes.
03/22/2017 02:45 AMPosted by Maleficious
But they can't have stealth guys when everyone who dies explodes, and when everyone dies, they all explode and people in stealth will be revealed.

Then I will yell at them, "WHAT ARE YOU HIDING?" before I kill them too so they can explode.

Everything explodes.


You have an incredible transmog. You look like a guy who would just stand there smiling while everything explodes. That is a compliment btw.
[/quote]

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=107467/jacin#sells

there seriously needs to be a small quest or something to point to this vendor... everyone complaining apparently has never heard of the kid.[/quote]

I never knew about this kid. Thanks!
03/22/2017 12:09 AMPosted by Dliver
The amazing design in Suramar is just another reason I think there needs to be a Suramar BG added at some point.

It's the perfect urban warfare environment.


Not until they solve the camera blocking problem. Last thing I want to do is PVP blind due to all the trees and cloth awnings getting in the way.
This warlock will be the FOURTH yes FOURTH character of mine that will be exalted with the Nightfallen. Not a fan of "wait till x amount of rep to continue the story" but Suramar IS an enjoyable place.

It's probably the most beautiful city Blizzard has ever created.

My only other complaint but it's minor....the elite side is a bit too dense with the stealth detect mobs. Not enough to make me dislike it though.

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