"Kick everyone under 200k DPS" (LFR)

General Discussion
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03/18/2017 09:12 PMPosted by Darkdeity
03/18/2017 09:01 PMPosted by Fit
Raider standards or not, if low dps was the issue (idk if it was or not, I wasn't there), then its not fair to everyone else to have to keep wiping cause of them.


It's the go to issue. It's a scapegoat.

The issue was really the mechanics. Those eyes seemed like they were too much for LFR.

We had a decent sized group of people that know the mechanics, doing them. It's unlikely that every other player wasn't doing them, but it's possible.

Given, most folks were on alts so they weren't bringing the big raider DPS (none of them were kicked tho). But they were still doing the mechanics.

Regardless, LFR groups shouldn't be expected to be a well oiled machine. Low DPS or not. If a good chunk of people are handling a mechanic like this, it should be enough to get by with in this sort of environment.

I just feel like the bar is set a little high for the intended audience on this fight.


The problem with this is as follows: Risk vs Reward. If they tune it down, reward has to go down, then people are upset that the rewards are nowhere near normal levels. If they keep item levels decent, where it can at least compete with normals, and war/titanforge to very solid ilvl, there has to be some challenge to it. And as others have stated, and for some reason been downvoted for..... People need to be able to pull their weight. Whether LFR is their endgame or not, if you cannot contribute enough damage to counterbalance the bosses health for you taking up a slot, why should beating the encounter be put on others shoulders. I know this may sound harsh to some, but it's reality. If people can't perform at passable levels with minimum item levels to queue, they should farm world quests/heroics/low mythics to buffer their ilvl and damage. Dungeon guide (while being a farcry from explaining everything fully/properly) gives people half an idea of whats going on, but it is overly apparent a LARGE portion of people can't even take the 15 seconds to read their role info in the dungeon journal. You don't have to be the best player, but if you can't get down at least a passable amount of DPS and have SOME idea of the fight you are doing, you are literally expecting to just be carried. And that shouldn't be put on others. If you have put in at least some effort to playing the game, and take the 15 seconds to read dungeon journal/and people explaining fight, you shouldn't be kicked. If you can't pull off those small things, I don't think its unfair to expect others not to enjoy the idea of having you just sit around for loot when you aren't pulling your weight.
03/20/2017 10:45 AMPosted by Weihu
And while it is obvious you think I make a big stink in LFR groups about underperformers, I am extremely patient. As a raid leader, it kind of comes with the job if you want to retain people. But I can be polite while also thinking that someone is just phoning it in.

Using your own sentiment...

I do not know, or care, how YOU, personally are. IN GENERAL, people who start hollering "kick all the scrubs under [insert arbitrary number that means nothing after only one, single wipe here]" are the issue.

I find it pretty telling, and kind of funny, that you take what I say personally, however.
03/20/2017 10:23 AMPosted by Showbay
But I still don't agree that someone else should be expected to carry someone who is severely underperforming.

We DO NOT disagree on that, though.

I NEVER ONCE said "you should just get over yourselves and carry them regardless of the number of wipes.

I said ONE WIPE is not enough information to determine if people are even being carried to any real extent.

Even so...one or two lagging behind shouldn't make any difference in the big scheme of things. If the average DPS is there and you're still wiping those couple of guys under 200k aren't the problem. The problem is the several at 500k that are tunneling and paying zero attention to mechanics while the "mid range" DPS doing 300-400k are actually the ones "carrying" the group.

Contrary to popular belief big DPS numbers are not the be all end all of everything World of Warcraft.
What happened to people just letting the determination buff do it's thing?
03/20/2017 11:07 AMPosted by Ryudo


Why not take it a step further and let us put our toons on autopilot? Sounds like it's time for a mode easier than LFR. Story mode. Sit back and watch.
So how many bosses did you one shot the first time you stepped into NH on normal/heroic?

I truly don't understand this mentality that people have regarding One-shotting everything in LFR. You certainly don't one-shot bosses the first time you go into a non-LFR raid on the day it releases.

This community is so unforgiving it is pitiful being that this is an MMO game. The entitlement is completely out of hand with some of you. When you are having a tough time in LFR because you are "carrying" others or people are "ignoring mechanics," please keep in mind that we were ALL new at this game at one time, regardless if it was 12 years ago or yesterday. You had to learn somehow, and hopefully you found someone nice enough to show you the ropes. It is time to return that favor to someone else.
03/20/2017 11:13 AMPosted by Raiyyn
03/20/2017 10:45 AMPosted by Weihu
And while it is obvious you think I make a big stink in LFR groups about underperformers, I am extremely patient. As a raid leader, it kind of comes with the job if you want to retain people. But I can be polite while also thinking that someone is just phoning it in.

Using your own sentiment...

I do not know, or care, how YOU, personally are. IN GENERAL, people who start hollering "kick all the scrubs under [insert arbitrary number that means nothing after only one, single wipe here]" are the issue.

I find it pretty telling, and kind of funny, that you take what I say personally, however.


?

You said, of me, that "YOU are the reason I stay out of LFR"

If you don't know or care about how I am, why would you say that?

You've slung insults and implied insults at me from the start, while knowing nothing about what I actually do in LFR groups, all because I expressed the opinion that LFR actually does have output requirements and people do need to meet them not to wipe a whole bunch, and that wiping on Gul'dan is very costly timewise because it is a very long fight.

Were you referring to some unamed party when you said that, instead of the person you were quoting, which was me?
03/20/2017 10:50 AMPosted by Weihu
I think you underestimate the ability to quickly analyze what happened in a fight, especially for people that are experienced with the fight

I think you overestimate the number of people that are experienced with the fight in an LFR setting.

And I do know how to quickly analyze what happened in a fight. I've been a raid leader for 8 years in this game. I'm not new to figuring out, and fixing, issues from who's being an idiot to who needs a little extra help with things.

But in freaking L F R one wipe could be caused by a million things...even with a smooth pull.

- not enough DPSing adds
- Tanks not knowing when to taunt, or not taunting at all, or not allowing their partner tank to taunt.
- Healers that are queued as DPS or who are just not playing their role.
- people not understanding the mechanics of the fight.
- people not knowing what adds to prioritize, kill, ignore (or if any can be ignored).
- some Mage/Shaman/Hunter using Hero/BL at the wrong time.
- and so on and so on and so on.

ONE WIPE IN LFR does NOT, in any circumstance, give enough information to determine, without a doubt, that DPS is the issue.

Two...fine...kick away for whatever reason you like. But in LFR at least give people a 2nd chance and explain something to them instead of just being an a** (not you, personally...in general).

How do you not understand this??? We are not talking Normal or Heroic PuG groups with criteria for entry and a screening process...we are talking totally disorganized, match made, queued content full of people from totally different "backgrounds" in this game...some raiders, some new comers, some playing a boosted alt, some having never even been in an instance before.

ONE WIPE is not sufficient to start kicking unless you are, personally or in general, generally a jerk. Kick away after the 2nd wipe. Scream at people for being retards after the 3rd/4th/more. But ONE? Geez...give them a chance at least.
03/19/2017 11:03 AMPosted by Whorror
i afk in LFR and pull 400k dps still pretty much.

never been kicked yet lol.


IKR? Heck, I don't even have to load WoW up, I just turn on my computer, leave for the day, and I have epics just overflowing in my mailbox when I log in at night - all from LFR!

If you aren't pulling 500K+ dps from doing nothing, you're doing it wrong.

And when I do try - I have epics overflowing from my mailbox IRL!!!!!!!
03/20/2017 11:26 AMPosted by Beautymus
So how many bosses did you one shot the first time you stepped into NH on normal/heroic?

I truly don't understand this mentality that people have regarding One-shotting everything in LFR


Normal/heroic are actually difficult. LFR is not.

A more fair comparison to LFR would be heroic dungeon or maybe a mythic 2 dungeon at most.
03/20/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Weihu
YOU

pronoun, possessive your or yours, objective you, plural you.
1. the pronoun of the second person singular or plural, used of the person or persons being addressed, in the nominative or objective case:
You are the highest bidder. It is you who are to blame. We can't help you. This package came for you. Did she give you the book?
2. one; anyone; people in general:
a tiny animal you can't even see.
3. (used in apposition with the subject of a sentence, sometimes repeated for emphasis following the subject):
-----------------
At the time I had responded to no one else really and "you" was a general "people who do [insert action I was griping about people doing here]".
I was actually on the receiving end of this last night. I was bored and running my horribly geared lock (841) in Gul'dan pulling an admittedly awful 125k. But I know the fight well enough for LFR that I was putting it where I was supposed to, I was staying alive and at one point b-rezzed a downed tank. Still got the axe. Eh. It's LFR.
03/18/2017 08:47 PMPosted by Annastasi
03/18/2017 08:41 PMPosted by Darkdeity
"Kick everyone under 200k DPS" was what came next. And guess what? People actually did.


anyone doing under 200k dps isn't really trying. If someone's legit contributing, but just bad.. ok, whatever. but most of it is people slogging off, doing nothing but white damage.

03/18/2017 08:41 PMPosted by Darkdeity
Now, our top 6 were well over 400k+ and there were plenty in the 300k+ range, which should've been fine to help carry the others that actually need LFR.


and that's the problem with LFR.

03/18/2017 08:41 PMPosted by Darkdeity
How lousy of an experience must this be for people that consider this their end game?


right? week after week having to carry people who can't be bothered to learn their class, or worse participate fully in the fights? that would be terrible.


03/18/2017 08:47 PMPosted by Annastasi
03/18/2017 08:41 PMPosted by Darkdeity
"Kick everyone under 200k DPS" was what came next. And guess what? People actually did.


anyone doing under 200k dps isn't really trying. If someone's legit contributing, but just bad.. ok, whatever. but most of it is people slogging off, doing nothing but white damage.

03/18/2017 08:41 PMPosted by Darkdeity
Now, our top 6 were well over 400k+ and there were plenty in the 300k+ range, which should've been fine to help carry the others that actually need LFR.


and that's the problem with LFR.

03/18/2017 08:41 PMPosted by Darkdeity
How lousy of an experience must this be for people that consider this their end game?


right? week after week having to carry people who can't be bothered to learn their class, or worse participate fully in the fights? that would be terrible.


Well, don't do LFR then. What do you and others say? make your own group or something along those lines.
03/20/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Raiyyn
03/20/2017 10:50 AMPosted by Weihu
I think you underestimate the ability to quickly analyze what happened in a fight, especially for people that are experienced with the fight

I think you overestimate the number of people that are experienced with the fight in an LFR setting.

And I do know how to quickly analyze what happened in a fight. I've been a raid leader for 8 years in this game. I'm not new to figuring out, and fixing, issues from who's being an idiot to who needs a little extra help with things.

But in freaking L F R one wipe could be caused by a million things...even with a smooth pull.

- not enough DPSing adds
- Tanks not knowing when to taunt, or not taunting at all, or not allowing their partner tank to taunt.
- Healers that are queued as DPS or who are just not playing their role.
- people not understanding the mechanics of the fight.
- people not knowing what adds to prioritize, kill, ignore (or if any can be ignored).
- some Mage/Shaman/Hunter using Hero/BL at the wrong time.
- and so on and so on and so on.

ONE WIPE IN LFR does NOT, in any circumstance, give enough information to determine, without a doubt, that DPS is the issue.

Two...fine...kick away for whatever reason you like. But in LFR at least give people a 2nd chance and explain something to them instead of just being an a** (not you, personally...in general).

How do you not understand this??? We are not talking Normal or Heroic PuG groups with criteria for entry and a screening process...we are talking totally disorganized, match made, queued content full of people from totally different "backgrounds" in this game...some raiders, some new comers, some playing a boosted alt, some having never even been in an instance before.

ONE WIPE is not sufficient to start kicking unless you are, personally or in general, generally a jerk. Kick away after the 2nd wipe. Scream at people for being retards after the 3rd/4th/more. But ONE? Geez...give them a chance at least.


The entire raid lives until the end or just about the end, and Tich or Gul'dan enrages at 20%. Explain to me what caused that wipe, other than people doing too little damage. And things like hero timing aren't going to amount to 20% damage difference. Not sure on what fight that tank taunting causes raid dps to go down unless like, the tanks actually die or get other people killed. It isn't like eyes heal Gul'dan. If people are living, the eyes are being killed fast enough. I suppose you could argue that if eyes are duplicating like eight times but you have awesome healers that can keep the raid up anyway, it is a "mechanics" issue, but at the same time, it is pretty easy to see if eyes are actually duplicating that much. You don't need multiple pulls to see whether the eyes are duplicating at most, once.

And yes, I've seen those happen. I even had a Gul'dan where he was at 65% after 8 minutes, with the raid more or less intact until then. At that point, a tank got knocked off the edge and that eventually led to a wipe. I left after that, because the group's damage was so tremendously low that a kill wasn't happening unless most of the group got replaced or we were at like 8 determination stacks.

Gul'dan isn't a complicated fight. If people aren't dying, and eyes are being killed before they duplicate multiple times, him enraging means people are doing too little damage. About the only thing that could force people not to dps him that isn't their fault would be melee getting knocked away by bonds of fel and no one coming to help share with them, assuming they don't have the health/cooldowns to solo soak anyway. But again...you can see that. Bonds of fel isn't a subtle animation.

I'd consider people that queue as dps but just heal or afk or whatever as doing too little dps, by the way.

If the boss enrages at low health in a more or less clean attempt, I'm content to let determination carry the rest of the way. But like 20%? Unless I see a lot of the group leave or get kicked, I'm probably just going to find a different LFR group.
Does LFR Gul'Dan have an enrage timer? I've been in some pretty bad groups going deep into the bonus % and I've never seen it. Every wipe is people not killing eyes or standing in the purple fire.
03/20/2017 11:17 AMPosted by Raiyyn
03/20/2017 10:23 AMPosted by Showbay
But I still don't agree that someone else should be expected to carry someone who is severely underperforming.

We DO NOT disagree on that, though.

I NEVER ONCE said "you should just get over yourselves and carry them regardless of the number of wipes.

I said ONE WIPE is not enough information to determine if people are even being carried to any real extent.

Even so...one or two lagging behind shouldn't make any difference in the big scheme of things. If the average DPS is there and you're still wiping those couple of guys under 200k aren't the problem. The problem is the several at 500k that are tunneling and paying zero attention to mechanics while the "mid range" DPS doing 300-400k are actually the ones "carrying" the group.

Contrary to popular belief big DPS numbers are not the be all end all of everything World of Warcraft.
And I'm totally in agreement that one wipe isn't enough to kick someone.

But you started going on about mentioning that there are people incapable of pulling those numbers due to physical limitations or cited how others mentioned it's impossible to pull those numbers in 835 gear.

Those reasons are not going to change on first pull or the seventh pull.

I'm only arguing against the idea that some people who should be carried - as that implies some other people are going to have to carry. That's extremely unfair. No one should have to do more because someone else does less.

Trying to throw in other points such as tunneling and ignoring mechanics is a completely separate issue. Those people ignoring mechanics are just as bad as people who can do do sub 200k. It's the same thing. Those guys are doing less of their own work (mechanics) and expecting others to do the mechanics for them.

So - your point about kicking people after one attempt being wrong - I agree with.

Your point that people who are tunneling and ignoring mechanics is bad - I agree with.

Your point that we should let a couple people slide for doing sub dps - totally disagree with.
03/20/2017 11:32 AMPosted by Raiyyn
03/20/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Weihu
YOU

pronoun, possessive your or yours, objective you, plural you.
1. the pronoun of the second person singular or plural, used of the person or persons being addressed, in the nominative or objective case:
You are the highest bidder. It is you who are to blame. We can't help you. This package came for you. Did she give you the book?
2. one; anyone; people in general:
a tiny animal you can't even see.
3. (used in apposition with the subject of a sentence, sometimes repeated for emphasis following the subject):
-----------------
At the time I had responded to no one else really and "you" was a general "people who do [insert action I was griping about people doing here]".


So you are going to go with, "I quoted you, responded to what you wrote, but at the last second, veered off and started talking about other people that aren't you, which should have been obvious despite the complete lack of context."

Alright, whatever, if you want to play it that way.

You are a terribly frustrating person and why I don't talk in pug groups except to answer questions people ask of me. Not you, other yous. Just to be clear.
03/20/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Raiyyn
03/20/2017 10:50 AMPosted by Weihu
I think you underestimate the ability to quickly analyze what happened in a fight, especially for people that are experienced with the fight

I think you overestimate the number of people that are experienced with the fight in an LFR setting.

And I do know how to quickly analyze what happened in a fight. I've been a raid leader for 8 years in this game. I'm not new to figuring out, and fixing, issues from who's being an idiot to who needs a little extra help with things.

But in freaking L F R one wipe could be caused by a million things...even with a smooth pull.

- not enough DPSing adds
- Tanks not knowing when to taunt, or not taunting at all, or not allowing their partner tank to taunt.
- Healers that are queued as DPS or who are just not playing their role.
- people not understanding the mechanics of the fight.
- people not knowing what adds to prioritize, kill, ignore (or if any can be ignored).
- some Mage/Shaman/Hunter using Hero/BL at the wrong time.
- and so on and so on and so on.

ONE WIPE IN LFR does NOT, in any circumstance, give enough information to determine, without a doubt, that DPS is the issue.

Two...fine...kick away for whatever reason you like. But in LFR at least give people a 2nd chance and explain something to them instead of just being an a** (not you, personally...in general).

How do you not understand this??? We are not talking Normal or Heroic PuG groups with criteria for entry and a screening process...we are talking totally disorganized, match made, queued content full of people from totally different "backgrounds" in this game...some raiders, some new comers, some playing a boosted alt, some having never even been in an instance before.

ONE WIPE is not sufficient to start kicking unless you are, personally or in general, generally a jerk. Kick away after the 2nd wipe. Scream at people for being retards after the 3rd/4th/more. But ONE? Geez...give them a chance at least.


Hey Raiyyn :)
03/20/2017 11:47 AMPosted by Mandrel
Does LFR Gul'Dan have an enrage timer? I've been in some pretty bad groups going deep into the bonus % and I've never seen it. Every wipe is people not killing eyes or standing in the purple fire.

He has a "hard enrage" set at 12 mins on N/H/and I think Mythic also. The "soft enrage" is the last phase, however.

But it wouldn't be lower than 12 mins in LFR regardless. People, from what I've hear when guildies are in there yelling in Discord, generally ignore the empowered eyes and die to splash damage long before any enrage timer would be hit on that particular fight.

I've not personally seen Gul'dan on LFR...I don't want to after hearing friends ye...err, talk...about it.
03/20/2017 11:32 AMPosted by Raiyyn
At the time I had responded to no one else really and "you" was a general "people who do [insert action I was griping about people doing here]".

I don't care what anyone else says -- *I* like your posts. You have some excellent observations and make valid points.
03/20/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Raiyyn
03/20/2017 10:50 AMPosted by Weihu
I think you underestimate the ability to quickly analyze what happened in a fight, especially for people that are experienced with the fight

I think you overestimate the number of people that are experienced with the fight in an LFR setting.

And I do know how to quickly analyze what happened in a fight. I've been a raid leader for 8 years in this game. I'm not new to figuring out, and fixing, issues from who's being an idiot to who needs a little extra help with things.

But in freaking L F R one wipe could be caused by a million things...even with a smooth pull.

- not enough DPSing adds
- Tanks not knowing when to taunt, or not taunting at all, or not allowing their partner tank to taunt.
- Healers that are queued as DPS or who are just not playing their role.
- people not understanding the mechanics of the fight.
- people not knowing what adds to prioritize, kill, ignore (or if any can be ignored).
- some Mage/Shaman/Hunter using Hero/BL at the wrong time.
- and so on and so on and so on.

ONE WIPE IN LFR does NOT, in any circumstance, give enough information to determine, without a doubt, that DPS is the issue.

Two...fine...kick away for whatever reason you like. But in LFR at least give people a 2nd chance and explain something to them instead of just being an a** (not you, personally...in general).

How do you not understand this??? We are not talking Normal or Heroic PuG groups with criteria for entry and a screening process...we are talking totally disorganized, match made, queued content full of people from totally different "backgrounds" in this game...some raiders, some new comers, some playing a boosted alt, some having never even been in an instance before.

ONE WIPE is not sufficient to start kicking unless you are, personally or in general, generally a jerk. Kick away after the 2nd wipe. Scream at people for being retards after the 3rd/4th/more. But ONE? Geez...give them a chance at least.


Hey Raiyyn :)

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