C'Thun's Sha?

Story Forum
Dont try to use facts with the old god zealot fans.
03/21/2017 05:42 AMPosted by Veloran
How many times do people need to reject your opinion before you start to realize that you aren't convincing?
Still haven't gotten a counterargument. Probably because there is actually no good evidence that they are alive.
03/21/2017 06:36 AMPosted by Mythelm
Still haven't gotten a counterargument. Probably because there is actually no good evidence that they are alive.

Seriously? What the hell are you on about?

Plenty of people in this thread have given counters to your opinion so far, with specific examples and everything. Most of what you've done is just say over and over again that they aren't giving anything any proof, while all you do is spout the same mindless drivel you've already given us way too many times. Meanwhile, they're constantly finding new ways to prove you wrong, which you just won't listen to.

Saying something doesn't mean it's true, and just because you deny the actual truth, it doesn't stop it from being true. Even if your definition of 'evidence' is greatly warped in comparison to that of others, when the majority has a definition other than yours, that's usually the definition you're supposed to go by.
03/20/2017 10:38 PMPosted by Denona
03/19/2017 09:23 PMPosted by Cannibal
Yogg-Saron and C'Thun weren't killed, just defeated


Really? Cause it says they are dead when I kill them, unlike Garrosh, Cenarius and Hyrja (HoV) where they are knocked out after we defeat them.


Illidan gets "Dead" over his nameplate as well in Black Temple, yet there he is in Legion.

MMMMmmmaaaaaaaaggGGGGGIIIIIiiiiiiicccccc
*twirls fingers*

In all seriousness, Old Gods exist outside of our plane of existence. The masses of tentacles, flesh and eyes we see are physical manifestations of the Void itself. We don't need to nor can we probably understand how they live or die at all.
03/21/2017 08:35 AMPosted by Cannibal
Illidan gets "Dead" over his nameplate as well in Black Temple, yet there he is in Legion.


Actually, I'm going to say this is a bad example. Illidan wasn't imprisoned alive. His (quite thoroughly dead) corpse was placed int he prison, and was ultimately stolen by Gul'dan.

He was no more. He ceased to be. He was resting in peace...an Ex-demon hunter, if you will.

With illidan, it's a matter of to where his soul was bound. Most souls are bound to the shadow lands. Being more demon than elf, Illidan's was bound to the nether.

Death is still death. Illidan was just as dead as any creature. The only difference for demons is that the nether has a rez timer....kinda like a BG graveyard.

So ultimately, BT Illidan's health bar reading "Dead" was quite accurate. He was just rezzed by the combined efforts (even if opposed intents) of Khadgar and Gul'dan.
03/21/2017 05:29 AMPosted by Mythelm
I agree. Even when OGs die,


I would use the word "die" lightly.

I did use it in my post, mainly because it's the closest word I can use to compare them.

Y'shaarj was pulled out of the ground by a friggin Titan. His lore even says he was "killed" by the Titans. But, if something is dead, it's heart doesn't sit around driving people insane with whispers.

Y'shaarj was dead in the sense that his enormous writhing body was destroyed. But the simple fact that the Titans locked his heart away tells us that Y'shaarj wasn't truly dead.

I'll reiterate. Death is a tricky thing for Old Gods. You can't apply the typical definitions of "Dead" or even "alive" to them, because they break those definitions.

Old Gods are much more than eldritch flesh. They are Void made real. If being crushed by a Titan didn't fully snuff out Y'shaarj, what makes you think C'thun and Yoggy aren't also still kicking around to some extent.

I think the issue that arises with threads like these has to do wording. We all agree that Y'shaarj could still act, even after his death. We all agree that Yoggy is doing something even after we stabbed his brain.

The question is always, "Can we call that state of being Death?".

Is a ghost not dead? Is that going to stop him from punching you with his ghost fist?
Can long dead spirits not haunt you, and drive you insane?

The Old Gods are like that. You can damage their bodies, but their... (Souls? Essence?) will remain to keep mucking things up.

The only Old God that is 100% dead is Y'shaarj. And that's assuming Old Gods don't follow Demon rules and respawn in the Void.
03/21/2017 08:31 AMPosted by Nincaro
03/21/2017 06:36 AMPosted by Mythelm
Still haven't gotten a counterargument. Probably because there is actually no good evidence that they are alive.

Seriously? What the hell are you on about?

Plenty of people in this thread have given counters to your opinion so far, with specific examples and everything. Most of what you've done is just say over and over again that they aren't giving anything any proof, while all you do is spout the same mindless drivel you've already given us way too many times. Meanwhile, they're constantly finding new ways to prove you wrong, which you just won't listen to.

Saying something doesn't mean it's true, and just because you deny the actual truth, it doesn't stop it from being true. Even if your definition of 'evidence' is greatly warped in comparison to that of others, when the majority has a definition other than yours, that's usually the definition you're supposed to go by.
Reread the first page and tell me who has provided a counterargument to my third post.
03/21/2017 05:29 AMPosted by Mythelm
Your post gave me an idea. Cho'gall drained C'Thun's remaining essence from his corpse (similar to Garrosh absorbing the power of the Heart of Y'Shaarj), so that might be why C'Thun doesn't have an equivalent to the Sha.
Cho'gall didn't drain C'Thun's corpse; C'Thun blessed him with his power.

In the same comic series in which he was stated by the narration to be dead.

While actively whispering to Med'an and Garona and communicating with Cho'gall.

Draw your own conclusions.
03/21/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Celandia
03/21/2017 05:29 AMPosted by Mythelm
Your post gave me an idea. Cho'gall drained C'Thun's remaining essence from his corpse (similar to Garrosh absorbing the power of the Heart of Y'Shaarj), so that might be why C'Thun doesn't have an equivalent to the Sha.
Cho'gall didn't drain C'Thun's corpse; C'Thun blessed him with his power.

In the same comic series in which he was stated by the narration to be dead.

While actively whispering to Med'an and Garona and communicating with Cho'gall.

Draw your own conclusions.
I interpreted that as C'Thun's spirit willingly letting Cho'gall absorb the remaining essence of his power, but Cho'gall gaining C'Thun's power could be different from what Garrosh did.
For the love of... here:

http://i.imgur.com/hhWbHor.jpg

This is Kel. Kel is a poor Blizzard employee I keep pestering with lore questions because people choose to ignore the masses of lore and proof thrown at them. Kel has not asked me to stop, yet, but still...

Stop making me bother Kel.
Well that shut this thread down...
03/21/2017 12:55 PMPosted by Cannibal
For the love of... here:

http://i.imgur.com/hhWbHor.jpg

This is Kel. Kel is a poor Blizzard employee I keep pestering with lore questions because people choose to ignore the masses of lore and proof thrown at them. Kel has not asked me to stop, yet, but still...

Stop making me bother Kel.


Cool so C'thun and Yogg at least are still alive.....ish. That means the voice we heard in Ulduar when we visited Magni was Yogg after all.
03/21/2017 12:55 PMPosted by Cannibal
http://i.imgur.com/hhWbHor.jpg


So each Old God is unique in it's power.

Yogg-Saron is a Void infused mass of Death Magic and Y'Shaarj is Void Magic of various colors tied to Negative Emotions while N'Zoth, Xal'atath and C'Thun's Magic variants are unknown.

And don't presume just yet that N'Zoth's Magic by itself is the Red stuff we see in the Emerald Nightmare as Herbalist Quests confirm that the Void Magic of the Nightmare is tainted by the Legion's Seed of Corruption Spell.

We will see what N'Zoth's Corruption manifestation is when we meet him. Is it Red like N'Zoth's eyes imply or is the Red color in the Nightmare fully due to the Legion's Chaos Magics is what I want to know.
03/21/2017 12:55 PMPosted by Cannibal
For the love of... here:

http://i.imgur.com/hhWbHor.jpg

This is Kel. Kel is a poor Blizzard employee I keep pestering with lore questions because people choose to ignore the masses of lore and proof thrown at them. Kel has not asked me to stop, yet, but still...

Stop making me bother Kel.

Wait, so we can ask the devs lore questions? If so, I might ask them if Xal'atath used to be an Old God.

So this confirms that those two or neither 100% alive or dead. But it's a little vague, and I can see two possible interpretations: they were only temporarily "knocked out" by us and can return on their own, or they are in a state where they can't use their bodies but they can still influence the land close to them and they can be "ressurrected" (this is what I meant when I called them dead).

I wonder if the OGs are similar to Zakajz. Zakajz was "killed" by Tyr, but he could still influence the environment around him and could be ressurected. If the OGs work in the same way, then that means that completely draining their essence (like what Xal'atath did to Zakajz) is the only way to make them 100% dead.

Also, it looks liek C'Thun's version of the Sha (if he had one) would be insanity. I wonder if it would work by just making those in the nearby land insane, or if there would be manigestations of insanity, similar to how the Sha were manifestations of nagative emotions
03/19/2017 09:23 PMPosted by Cannibal
Y'Shaarj was killed, so his remnants manifested as Sha.

Yogg-Saron and C'Thun weren't killed, just defeated.

Nope, they are deader than disco.

As for the OP, Y'shaarj was the strongest old god by far, and the most Yoggy, who the strongest of the ones that where still alive, could manage was occasional ghost faceless.

It's entirely possible that C'Thun's power after his death consisted entirely of making Cho'gall want to un-kill him.
03/22/2017 04:51 AMPosted by Phlynch
Nope, they are deader than disco.


But Disco is never quite dead. All it needs is the right circumstances. The right groove, the right moves, the right kind of large pants, and Disco can come back stronger than ever.

Just like the Old Gods.

Death, for Old Gods, is more like sleep. Though their bodies are inert, their minds and essences "dream" and can still corrupt and twist the world around them. And all it takes is someone with a big enough poking stick to wake them up.

The only way to make the Old Gods "deader than disco" is to kill the bodies and drain their souls. Anything less, and they aren't 100% gone.

Only Y'shaarj is "deader than disco". The others? Not quite.
03/22/2017 05:05 AMPosted by Hackbrew
03/22/2017 04:51 AMPosted by Phlynch
Nope, they are deader than disco.


But Disco is never quite dead. All it needs is the right circumstances. The right groove, the right moves, the right kind of large pants, and Disco can come back stronger than ever.

Just like the Old Gods.

Death, for Old Gods, is more like sleep. Though their bodies are inert, their minds and essences "dream" and can still corrupt and twist the world around them. And all it takes is someone with a big enough poking stick to wake them up.

The only way to make the Old Gods "deader than disco" is to kill the bodies and drain their souls. Anything less, and they aren't 100% gone.

Only Y'shaarj is "deader than disco". The others? Not quite.
I have a feeling that N'Zoth is either going to drain all the lingering power in C'Thun and Yogg, or one of his minions will. If Magni becomes corrulted, he would be a good candidate for draining the essence of Yogg. It would be interesting to see a crystal Magni with a bunch of crystal mouths sticking out of his body.
03/22/2017 04:50 AMPosted by Mythelm
Wait, so we can ask the devs lore questions?
You can always ask. They just don't always answer.

Regardless, the border between being alive and dead in Warcraft isn't super cut and dry. Almost everything that is dead can seemingly either be brought back or influence the world, regardless of the status said being's body.
03/22/2017 02:03 AMPosted by Nathreim
03/21/2017 12:55 PMPosted by Cannibal
For the love of... here:

http://i.imgur.com/hhWbHor.jpg

This is Kel. Kel is a poor Blizzard employee I keep pestering with lore questions because people choose to ignore the masses of lore and proof thrown at them. Kel has not asked me to stop, yet, but still...

Stop making me bother Kel.


Cool so C'thun and Yogg at least are still alive.....ish. That means the voice we heard in Ulduar when we visited Magni was Yogg after all.


The dead have always been able to mess with the living.
Gul'dan talked to people through his skull.

Old gods are dead but they still can mess with people
03/22/2017 05:05 AMPosted by Hackbrew
But Disco is never quite dead. All it needs is the right circumstances. The right groove, the right moves, the right kind of large pants, and Disco can come back stronger than ever.

Just like the Old Gods.

By that logic nothing dies in the WC universe.

The old gods are dead as a doornail. Their bodies have ceased all functions and begun to decay. They've gone to live on old man Simmons' farm.

They. Are. Dead.

But just like everything else in this universe they can be brought back with magic, and they can leave nasty curses in thier wake.

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