What is wrong with the Mantle fix?

Rogue
OK, lets take a different tack here. I here people complaining about multiple issues and discussion had made it difficult to understand what is wrong with the mantle fix.

Can someone clearly explain the precise issue with the fix implemented for mantle. Please explain the previous behavior, and the present behavior, and why it is incorrect or unexpected.
03/28/2017 09:43 AMPosted by Omgbak
No, Vanish buff lasts 3 seconds, it's like an "enhanced stealth", but if you weren't spec'ed in Subterfuge, if you did any damage dealing ability, you would just lose the Vanish buff and instantly go into the 6s shoulder window

Now, if you were spec'ed into Subterfuge and did Vanish, for the whole 3 seconds, you could attack and still maintain the Vanish buff, and when it ented, ONLY WHEN VANISH BUFF ENDED, the 6s shoulder window would start to tick down

Now, looks like any attack from Vanish instantly takes you out of it, regardless of using Subterfuge or not, so no "9s crit window with Vanish by using shoulders" anymore
the 6s shoulder window would start to tick down

And Master of Subtlety!
Good of blizzard to talk about legendaries buffing talents and then go ahead and do this :D
I think the real problem here is the whole NOT COMMUNICATING it until a day before the patch is live and only doing it through the official patch notes.
03/28/2017 05:31 PMPosted by Aeriwen
OK, lets take a different tack here. I here people complaining about multiple issues and discussion had made it difficult to understand what is wrong with the mantle fix.

Can someone clearly explain the precise issue with the fix implemented for mantle. Please explain the previous behavior, and the present behavior, and why it is incorrect or unexpected.


Pure ignorance. There is no change to mantle it will act exactly the same as before.

All sub rogues that do not have the mantle got nerfed instead.

This is histerical, the Shoulders are even more required than before now that everyone who doesn't have the mantle in sub got nerfed.
03/28/2017 05:44 PMPosted by Omgbak
03/28/2017 09:43 AMPosted by Omgbak
No, Vanish buff lasts 3 seconds, it's like an "enhanced stealth", but if you weren't spec'ed in Subterfuge, if you did any damage dealing ability, you would just lose the Vanish buff and instantly go into the 6s shoulder window

Now, if you were spec'ed into Subterfuge and did Vanish, for the whole 3 seconds, you could attack and still maintain the Vanish buff, and when it ented, ONLY WHEN VANISH BUFF ENDED, the 6s shoulder window would start to tick down

Now, looks like any attack from Vanish instantly takes you out of it, regardless of using Subterfuge or not, so no "9s crit window with Vanish by using shoulders" anymore


That looks like the correct behavior to me. Unless I am misunderstanding, the vanish extension from subterfuge was a known, if long lived, bug.

So is the primary concern the dps loss?
03/28/2017 06:45 PMPosted by Aeriwen
<span class="truncated">...</span>


That looks like the correct behavior to me. Unless I am misunderstanding, the vanish extension from subterfuge was a known, if long lived, bug.

So is the primary concern the dps loss?

Yes, that AND sub rogues got nerfed because of that

Because they use Vanish as offensive CD even without shoulders, so the Vanish ( both from the skill and the traited Sprint ) got nerfed for them, they have less uptime on Subterfuge/Stealth stance to keep using Shadowstrike and such

03/28/2017 06:14 PMPosted by Brutain
03/28/2017 05:31 PMPosted by Aeriwen
OK, lets take a different tack here. I here people complaining about multiple issues and discussion had made it difficult to understand what is wrong with the mantle fix.

Can someone clearly explain the precise issue with the fix implemented for mantle. Please explain the previous behavior, and the present behavior, and why it is incorrect or unexpected.


Pure ignorance. There is no change to mantle it will act exactly the same as before.

All sub rogues that do not have the mantle got nerfed instead.

This is histerical, the Shoulders are even more required than before now that everyone who doesn't have the mantle in sub got nerfed.

Shoulders "lasting more" effect with Subterfuge got "fixed", assassination with shoulders will want to change away from it probably, or not

Yeah, sub pretty much got !@#$ed up

But don't be so stupid to say this wasn't something to put the shoulders more in par with other legendaries, I don't disagree sub got rekt because of it, you even got annoyed by thinking shoulders weren't going to be nerfed, and should've been buffed instead

TL;DR: they !@#$ed up a "legendary fix" by nerfing a core mechanic off Subterfuge/Vanish interactivity, which sub rogues use to keep Symbols of Death up and Shadowstriking
Because they use Vanish as offensive CD even without shoulders, so the Vanish ( both from the skill and the traited Sprint ) got nerfed for them, they have less uptime on Subterfuge/Stealth stance to keep using Shadowstrike and such


OK, now we are getting somewhere.

I was only aware of the mantle and MoS interactions.

To be clear, you mean that you can no longer use multiple openers after Vanish / flickering shadows, and the additional MoS uptime that results?

Or do you mean you can no longer open with Vanish / Flickering Shadows for some reason? If so, why?
<span class="truncated">...</span>

That looks like the correct behavior to me. Unless I am misunderstanding, the vanish extension from subterfuge was a known, if long lived, bug.

So is the primary concern the dps loss?

Yes, that AND sub rogues got nerfed because of that

Because they use Vanish as offensive CD even without shoulders, so the Vanish ( both from the skill and the traited Sprint ) got nerfed for them, they have less uptime on Subterfuge/Stealth stance to keep using Shadowstrike and such

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Pure ignorance. There is no change to mantle it will act exactly the same as before.

All sub rogues that do not have the mantle got nerfed instead.

This is histerical, the Shoulders are even more required than before now that everyone who doesn't have the mantle in sub got nerfed.

Shoulders "lasting more" effect with Subterfuge got "fixed", assassination with shoulders will want to change away from it probably, or not

Yeah, sub pretty much got !@#$ed up

But don't be so stupid to say this wasn't something to put the shoulders more in par with other legendaries, I don't disagree sub got rekt because of it, you even got annoyed by thinking shoulders weren't going to be nerfed, and should've been buffed instead

TL;DR: they !@#$ed up a "legendary fix" by nerfing a core mechanic off Subterfuge/Vanish interactivity, which sub rogues use to keep Symbols of Death up and Shadowstriking


You are wrong.

SHoulders got buffed indirectly by nerfing Sub. Now Shoulders are even more require.
03/28/2017 07:00 PMPosted by Brutain
...
Yes, that AND sub rogues got nerfed because of that

Because they use Vanish as offensive CD even without shoulders, so the Vanish ( both from the skill and the traited Sprint ) got nerfed for them, they have less uptime on Subterfuge/Stealth stance to keep using Shadowstrike and such

...
Shoulders "lasting more" effect with Subterfuge got "fixed", assassination with shoulders will want to change away from it probably, or not

Yeah, sub pretty much got !@#$ed up

But don't be so stupid to say this wasn't something to put the shoulders more in par with other legendaries, I don't disagree sub got rekt because of it, you even got annoyed by thinking shoulders weren't going to be nerfed, and should've been buffed instead

TL;DR: they !@#$ed up a "legendary fix" by nerfing a core mechanic off Subterfuge/Vanish interactivity, which sub rogues use to keep Symbols of Death up and Shadowstriking


You are wrong.

SHoulders got buffed indirectly by nerfing Sub. Now Shoulders are even more require.

Ploxerino, explain us how
<span class="truncated">...</span>

You are wrong.

SHoulders got buffed indirectly by nerfing Sub. Now Shoulders are even more require.

Ploxerino, explain us how


What is annoiying is what is the next STUPID HACK JOB blizzard going to do when they finally figure out how stupid they are, nevermind I predicted this problem months ago.

So garbage, I swear if any of these guys actually played Sub they never would have done something so super silly.
03/28/2017 07:09 PMPosted by Brutain
What is annoiying is what is the next STUPID HACK JOB blizzard going to do when they finally figure out how stupid they are, nevermind I predicted this problem months ago.


And it might have been recieved if you weren't so inflammatory. And just so that we are clear, I am not going to respond to provocative posts from you. I am just letting you know there is a better way. This thread was meant to gather clear feedback, and your comments are hampering that effort.

I still have unanswered questions posted above that need to be addressed.
03/28/2017 08:35 PMPosted by Aeriwen
03/28/2017 07:09 PMPosted by Brutain
What is annoiying is what is the next STUPID HACK JOB blizzard going to do when they finally figure out how stupid they are, nevermind I predicted this problem months ago.


And it might have been recieved if you weren't so inflammatory. And just so that we are clear, I am not going to respond to provocative posts from you. I am just letting you know there is a better way. This thread was meant to gather clear feedback, and your comments are hampering that effort.

I still have unanswered questions posted above that need to be addressed.


Good, that is my plan because I want you to be wrong. SILLYHEAD.

and you are getting boring.

I have been stating the exact situation for years and spitting on you to manipulate you to not accept it.

Laughing at how easy it is to screw with a person who has bad charater.

6 years though and seriously, how it possible for you not to learn. At some point should I feel guilty for messing with a super duper sillyhead? Nah, you deserve it.
Blizzard clearly had to nerf...sub rogues. Not assassin, sub rogues, sub rogues, those rogues hardly anyone plays in game? They were TOO good.

...
03/28/2017 09:29 PMPosted by Yougotbelfed
Blizzard clearly had to nerf...sub rogues. Not assassin, sub rogues, sub rogues, those rogues hardly anyone plays in game? They were TOO good.

...


Yah, it is pretty hysterical but not surprising. I said this would happen months ago.
Ahh man, it was sure nice having pizza pops for this thread.
03/28/2017 10:10 PMPosted by Diusus
Ahh man, it was sure nice having pizza pops for this thread.


Yah, but I should have more downvotes Nothign elicits more rage than laying down the truth on the fragile.
There's nothing wrong with what they did. They simply closed a loophole that shouldn't have existed in the first place. Whoever didn't see this coming a mile away was living in denial. Seriously, you people didn't think they were going to do something about an effect that was, in essence, a flat 50% increase after every vanish?

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