7.2.5 Enhancement Class Discussion

Class Development
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As per Ryethe's post, all indications from many hours of testing has yet to show a single instance of an offhand Stormstrike or Windstrike proc'ing Stormbringer (though a funny Lava Lash double proc bug with T19 4pc was found).

This would be an odd exception from the new Stormbringer design, which has a chance to proc from all weapon attacks, not just things classified as main hand or off hand.

White hand off swings can proc Stormbringer, so Stormstrike / Windstrike off hand attacks probably should too.
This is not mentioned enough but the truth is an amazing job was done this patch with enhancement shaman,
truly outstanding that from apparently not being flagged as a spec for change we received this revamp that among many things:
-moved away from feast or famine proc playstyle,
-brought apparently extremely well balanced talents and legendaries,
-both of the above features provide a range of complexicity that allows for any kind of player to enjoy our spec,
-also last but not least, quick bug fixing that is allowing us to experience the spec to it's entirety.

For this I must say congratulations, I'm truly happy with the changes and that's the feeling of most of the shaman community I interact with.

Now the caveat,
If this is indeed true, and a SS bug is providing only one chance to trigger SB, this apparantly small thing has the potential to undermine some of the incredible effort made this patch.
- comparative to the rest of the spec, it would make sense that SS, being 2 individual hits, should be able to proc SB with either of them
- balance of legendaries and talents that rely on SS/SB will be affected - enough that what we've been seeing so far regarding extremely well balanced legendaries will shift. This brings them down and considerably decreases gear diversity and options for players
- the occasional SS chains (whilst not to the extent of the current patch) are part of the fun and identity of Enhancement and will take a hit if this goes live

I urge you to not let this small fix ruin all the great work that has been done and destroy the perception of the community that enhance is now a refreshen spec
with the most variable playstyles available that I've seen so far in legion.
06/07/2017 09:56 PMPosted by Wildhoof
But now we can't even guarantee it, we lost the sustain we had because all nerfs we suffered, no matter if they was directly to us (Hailstorm and Boulderfist) or indirectly to us (less Agility and Crit for all Agility users, secondary stat rebalance).

We didn't lose our sustained damage. We lost ground compared to other specs in our average damage. Assume a 0 to 10 scale of dps, with 10 being the highest. Our performance in EN was 8-10. Now our DPS is now more like 3-5, the difference is the same but the average has gone down. Simple numerical buffs would put us back up at 8-10, excluding scaling issues (which we shouldn't ignore, of course). Our sustained damage is still as consistent as it was, just lower relative to other specs.

As for the rest of it, sure. We absolutely want buffs and adjustments. Given that our burst is low (lower effect from Bloodlust/Hero) but our AoE is bad (less padding from other people), faster fights are neutral to our net position in a stack ranking, though it changes spec/legendary choices. We really -are- worse at nearly everything than other specs on live. We can't solosoak mechanics to cheese fights, our mobility is only okay, so we can't cheese others. We can't burst down adds before they die from those that can. Our cleave isn't sufficient to make that a niche for us, either. We're in a bad spot. They're adjusting a lot of stuff, but the tuning of our kit into a cohesive whole compared to what other specs do in similar circumstances is what will determine whether or not we're competitive. If they don't get that right, then I suppose they at least balanced some of the talent rows better and opened up new builds.
Wow yeah that SS interaction is odd. Can't be intended.... right? RIGHT?
Just want to add that we do have an example of Lava Lash double rolling SB:
https://puu.sh/wdMmy/f397bea8d1.png

(This is a result of T19 4pc providing a separate 10% SB roll chance)

This means the system is capable of rolling consecutive SBs but current SS does not and only appears to do a single SB roll. On another note, I attempted to account for batching on SS only in the logs (2 procs off SS being rolled into 1) and the numbers are still consistently off target.
Please fix this bug :)
I would like to double down on this statement. The animation is great and just feels so good when you have a great proc cycle and get to Jam that SS button and watch magic happen.

..SS chains are the one common thread that seems to keep coming up as a fun part of enh. It definitely is such for me...


Please look into this bug, and if this is not the correct forum for it please let us know.

Great Job guys
It's ambiguous whether SS should attempt to proc Stormbringer once or twice. While we normally try to be generous with things that could go either way--one of the specific concerns driving the Enhancement changes in this patch is that Stormbringer's mechanics caused "feast-or-famine" proc outcomes. That is, because Stormstrike itself was one of the few spells that procced Stormbringer, a proc made more upcoming procs likely, and lack of a proc made upcoming procs less likely. This sort of positive feedback in a proc chance (essentially the opposite of bad luck protection) is something that should generally be avoided.

Stormstrike having twice the proc chance of any other button would have a similar concern. I understand that, viewed in isolation, adding it would be a welcome power increase--but that's neither here nor there. As always, the spec can be tuned with either proc mechanic, so the important question is what's better for pacing long-term. If it turns out more total DPS is needed (or even if, for example, more frequent procs would be an improvement), there are likely better ways to accomplish it.

If by happenstance some talent rows might be better balanced right now if we doubled Stormstrike's chance to proc Stormbringer (I assume this means L75 and/or L100), that's something to look into if needed. But similarly, it's not a good reason to make a change that has other ramifications longer-term.
So I guess Bracers and EoTN is still king. Sigh.
06/08/2017 12:27 PMPosted by Sigma
It's ambiguous whether SS should attempt to proc Stormbringer once or twice. While we normally try to be generous with things that could go either way--one of the specific concerns driving the Enhancement changes in this patch is that Stormbringer's mechanics caused "feast-or-famine" proc outcomes. That is, because Stormstrike itself was one of the few spells that procced Stormbringer, a proc made more upcoming procs likely, and lack of a proc made upcoming procs less likely. This sort of positive feedback in a proc chance (essentially the opposite of bad luck protection) is something that should generally be avoided.

Stormstrike having twice the proc chance of any other button would have a similar concern. I understand that, viewed in isolation, adding it would be a welcome power increase--but that's neither here nor there. As always, the spec can be tuned with either proc mechanic, so the important question is what's better for pacing long-term. If it turns out more total DPS is needed (or even if, for example, more frequent procs would be an improvement), there are likely better ways to accomplish it.

If by happenstance some talent rows might be better balanced right now if we doubled Stormstrike's chance to proc Stormbringer (I assume this means L75 and/or L100), that's something to look into if needed. But similarly, it's not a good reason to make a change that has other ramifications longer-term.


Thanks for the response Sigma.

I agree that the spec can be fine either way. Talents can be balanced either way. If Asc was behind, there are ways to fix that, if Tempest is too weak there are ways to fix that. If overall dps is weak, that's what the aura is for.

Bare minimum some sort of tooltip clarification might be helpful here. WF procs 2 attacks, each can separately proc SB. CL procs per hit. Sunder procs per hit. It is basically the only case where we get 2 hits but can only proc SB once. Not everyone is going to read a guide or run a sim to find that out.

We're updating the sim now and that should show everyone some context on what this does to talents and legendary balance.
06/08/2017 12:27 PMPosted by Sigma
It's ambiguous whether SS should attempt to proc Stormbringer once or twice. While we normally try to be generous with things that could go either way--one of the specific concerns driving the Enhancement changes in this patch is that Stormbringer's mechanics caused "feast-or-famine" proc outcomes. That is, because Stormstrike itself was one of the few spells that procced Stormbringer, a proc made more upcoming procs likely, and lack of a proc made upcoming procs less likely. This sort of positive feedback in a proc chance (essentially the opposite of bad luck protection) is something that should generally be avoided.

Stormstrike having twice the proc chance of any other button would have a similar concern. I understand that, viewed in isolation, adding it would be a welcome power increase--but that's neither here nor there. As always, the spec can be tuned with either proc mechanic, so the important question is what's better for pacing long-term. If it turns out more total DPS is needed (or even if, for example, more frequent procs would be an improvement), there are likely better ways to accomplish it.

If by happenstance some talent rows might be better balanced right now if we doubled Stormstrike's chance to proc Stormbringer (I assume this means L75 and/or L100), that's something to look into if needed. But similarly, it's not a good reason to make a change that has other ramifications longer-term.

That all sounds fine, but in addition to the inconsistencies in behavior that Ryethe pointed out, the main thing I'd question is whether we need to be scared about Stormstrike's ability to proc Stormbringer to begin with. In my experience, getting a chain of Stormbringer procs is the most exciting part of DPS'ing as enhancement right now. And since Tempest was redesigned so that each proc only gets you 2 SS casts instead of 3, the stormbringer chains in 7.2.5 are already significantly less likely to go on for an endless streak in comparison to live. That, and the sim outputs we'd been generating up to this point didn't look to be particularly degenerate.

But yes, it is clearly possible to fix tuning in other ways if that's what's preferred from a design standpoint.
06/08/2017 12:27 PMPosted by Sigma
It's ambiguous whether SS should attempt to proc Stormbringer once or twice. While we normally try to be generous with things that could go either way--one of the specific concerns driving the Enhancement changes in this patch is that Stormbringer's mechanics caused "feast-or-famine" proc outcomes. That is, because Stormstrike itself was one of the few spells that procced Stormbringer, a proc made more upcoming procs likely, and lack of a proc made upcoming procs less likely. This sort of positive feedback in a proc chance (essentially the opposite of bad luck protection) is something that should generally be avoided.

Stormstrike having twice the proc chance of any other button would have a similar concern. I understand that, viewed in isolation, adding it would be a welcome power increase--but that's neither here nor there. As always, the spec can be tuned with either proc mechanic, so the important question is what's better for pacing long-term. If it turns out more total DPS is needed (or even if, for example, more frequent procs would be an improvement), there are likely better ways to accomplish it.

If by happenstance some talent rows might be better balanced right now if we doubled Stormstrike's chance to proc Stormbringer (I assume this means L75 and/or L100), that's something to look into if needed. But similarly, it's not a good reason to make a change that has other ramifications longer-term.


Thanks for the explanation Sigma. I think its fair to say that reducing the feast-or-famine concerns was ultimately the goal of this patch for us, and while I think that this particular decision is un-intuitive and backwards from the new Stormbringer, I do agree that it helps to move us in a good direction, mechanically.

However, this is a significant blow to our expectations for performance in the upcoming tier. With little to no utility and role-identity (except as a Single Target DPS), there will be much hesitation to slot Enhancement Shamans in Mythic raids.

Enhancement, as it stands on the PTR, is currently numerically weak when compared to other classes and specs. Please tune us up however you see fit so that we have a clear, desirable role in Tomb of Sargeras. If Enhancement ends up as a mediocre, middle-of-the-pack Single Target DPS then we'll be rendered obsolete by other melee specs that provide better DPS in nearly all situations.

Thanks.
thanks for asking for all the changes all i keep hearing is bad news and times running out. thanks again for making us even worse, how about just leave me alone b4 i can't even get group for tome.
Thank you for the clarification Sigma, always appreciated to know that the feedback is being heard.

I, like many others, assumed that both hits of Stormstrike we're each able to proc Stormbringer, admittedly going go against the intent of the patch which was to reduce the feast and famine in the spec.

While I'm aware that tuning is still not final it should be said that this information takes down our spec a bit (~2% as some have said for non-bracer setups) which isn't a lot but considering we're already struggling to be competitive in live and have seen great mechanical change but not much in terms of tuning us up to par some might be concerned going into 7.2.5.

I will be totally behind this interaction of Stormstrike and stormbringer so long as we get something somewhere else (in our aura, SB base chance, SB scaling etc.)

Also, please look again at t20, consistently refreshing the buff with average 3-4 stacks is unsatisfying and Crash Lighting making up ~4% of damage done, much less so because of the Lava Lashes forgone in lieu of Crash.

Thanks again Sigma,
Cheers.
Appreciate the time for responses, Sigma
But it still feels like we are being avoided on topics that need to be adressed.

If Stormstrike is indeed intended to not have a double chance to proc, will we be given some more tuning to make us competitive?
As it stands in the ptr, we are still subpar. While we have a good bit less FAMINE, our FEAST is considerably weak in comparison to many dps classes.

Also our t20, while it has received number buffs, is still contradictory to itself.
And even then it is a poor tier in general. Crit being one of our lesser stats
and the 4 set being contradictory to our class "fantasy," single target beasts.
As much of a fantasy that is left.
Since we aren't "Totemic Warriors" anymore.
06/08/2017 12:27 PMPosted by Sigma
It's ambiguous whether SS should attempt to proc Stormbringer once or twice.


Intentional design decisions cannot be ambiguous. It was whiteboarded, decided and coded that SS should only have one chance to proc SB.
While this is a perfectly fine balance decision, it is inherently counterintuitive from a mechanical standpoint, and inconsistent with the rest of the design, and should have been clarified in a tooltip or the PTR notes.
@Sigma and every shaman out there,

Thank you for your prompt response,
Upon reading it, we have gone further and simulated to the best of our ability,
Legendary combos:
-Heart&Soul
-Heart&EoTN
-Akainu&EoTN

With talent permutations that included:
t15 (WS,HH,LS)
t60 (AS,HS)
t75 (T,OC,ESL)
t100 (ASC,ES)

Using 915 gear collected from Tomb of Sargeras while giving preference to haste and mastery

-using the assumption that SS would proc from both hands:

http://i.imgur.com/cvGVaXO.png

-using the intended design of proccing from main hand only:

http://i.imgur.com/s3vzoyh.png

We are still interpreting these stacks, but at this point, the balance between legendaries seems to be well balanced after all (sitting at less than 1% for the 3 strong combos).

Talents may need to be looked into, specifically ones that occupy GCDs appear to have gone up - specifically Overcharge, and Windsong but overall this seems positive, allowing at least 2 viable choices per row.

The most striking result is that we were expecting a larger increase in numbers from live to the PTR and this finding changed that perception, something that might be needed to look at while tuning is still on its course.

Unfortunately we all still remember the tough times we went through during Nighthold, but we are quite hopeful regarding Tomb if we as a spec that has its flaws during AoE can perform respectably on a single target environment.
Thanks Sigma for devoting your time to this thread, I agree that less feast or famine is a good thing, this leaves our concerns towards the lack of niche and with it the absolute blandness of the spec in NH.
06/08/2017 12:27 PMPosted by Sigma
It's ambiguous whether SS should attempt to proc Stormbringer once or twice. While we normally try to be generous with things that could go either way--one of the specific concerns driving the Enhancement changes in this patch is that Stormbringer's mechanics caused "feast-or-famine" proc outcomes. That is, because Stormstrike itself was one of the few spells that procced Stormbringer, a proc made more upcoming procs likely, and lack of a proc made upcoming procs less likely. This sort of positive feedback in a proc chance (essentially the opposite of bad luck protection) is something that should generally be avoided.

Stormstrike having twice the proc chance of any other button would have a similar concern. I understand that, viewed in isolation, adding it would be a welcome power increase--but that's neither here nor there. As always, the spec can be tuned with either proc mechanic, so the important question is what's better for pacing long-term. If it turns out more total DPS is needed (or even if, for example, more frequent procs would be an improvement), there are likely better ways to accomplish it.

If by happenstance some talent rows might be better balanced right now if we doubled Stormstrike's chance to proc Stormbringer (I assume this means L75 and/or L100), that's something to look into if needed. But similarly, it's not a good reason to make a change that has other ramifications longer-term.


I may not always agree with every design decision, but man is it nice to see you respond to our concerns and read through your rationale.

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