Challenges; Blizz Confused? Skill =/= Gear

General Discussion
No matter how much Blizzard claims they are skill based, this is not what they are. Blizz called them a "Skill Based Scenario" which could not be anymore untrue.

In order for something to be skill based, it depends on just that.. the persons overall skill. Handling Mechanics, Interrupts, Target Switching, Etc are all examples of making something skill based.

However, having things hit you for 50% of your health (Poor tanks, I'm so sorry!), or just not having enough healing, or dps is NOT skill. I understand theres a fine line for things on how skill contributes to dps / hps / mitigation, but that only takes you so far. If you know HOW to do the mechanics, and are consistently getting to a certain point but can't pass it because your dps or hps required isnt high enough, then that strays away from being skill based, and becomes gear based.

In a quote from Ornyx, he contradicts himself by saying:
As I'm sure you're aware, our journey through Legion is not yet over, and as the expansion continues, your character will undoubtedly become stronger through Artifact progression, gear upgrades, etc.


then goes on to say:

It's also worthwhile to note that each Artifact appearance in the game has a different source. Some reflect dedication to a particular style of gameplay, such as raiding or PvP - but unlocking this appearance should show that you've truly mastered your spec.


So which one is it Blizz, do you want to prove we are masters of our spec? Or do you want us to show that we simply out geared the content?

Please make up your mind. Is it a Skill Check by mastering your spec, or is it a Gear Check by just simply out gearing it?

If its a skill check, make mechanics more important, making sure people use all their abilities like they should be, utilizing their full kit, interrupting "x" add when it needs to be, kiting "x" mob when it needs to be, using "x" defensive ability when needed. If its a skill check, and not a gear check, lower the DPS/HPS requirements and the insane damage taken.
Well said man! Exactly how I feel about this. Gear really does matter to a point in this challenge and it makes me sad.
I agree 100%

This is a broken fight.
Try being Feral as per usual blizz says screw feral lets make an aoe cleave fight as per usual. I don't mind challenges but its pretty obvious that this fight will be far easier for classes with lots of cleave and aoe

yes this is my mage cant post on my druid just transferred it
It's skill check for the lowest possible required gear (about 893ish from what I've seen so far) and better gear makes it easier eventually.

It's kinda like a solo mythic boss. Method was able to kill mythic archimond without a single legendary ring. Do you think any guild afterward that had even one was just relying on their gear and no skill was required? That is what you are saying.
04/03/2017 05:58 PMPosted by Moghedin
Well said man! Exactly how I feel about this. Gear really does matter to a point in this challenge and it makes me sad.


Like, I wouldnt mind if they said "Okay, this is a gear check. Only the highly geared people will be able to get it."

But calling it a skill check? Thats absurd. Skill is just that...your skill to handle the mechanics. Skill shouldnt be backed by numbers, its backed by youre ability to handle mechanics.
Its a gear check and AP check not a skill check, skill check = normalised gear templated characters.

You do it for pvp its not like the tech is not in game.
04/03/2017 06:06 PMPosted by Argorwal
It's skill check for the lowest possible required gear (about 893ish from what I've seen so far) and better gear makes it easier eventually.

It's kinda like a solo mythic boss. Method was able to kill mythic archimond without a single legendary ring. Do you think any guild afterward that had even one was just relying on their gear and no skill was required? That is what you are saying.


Mythic Archimonde was more about mechanic handling then it was about DPS. And its a raid that involved 20 other people. Solo content and group content can not be compared.
I completely agree with you. It just shouldn't be based on your gear level.
I haven't had a chance to try the challenge, but watching the BM videos are kind of... ??? Things have to hit you for ungodly damage or it'd be a faceroll for the 'challenging appearance'.

I do support the OP's post. The challenge for BM Hunters is all about having a high ilvl and the Roots of Shaladrassil Legendary. Oh... and having working hands. And Eyes.
Well said, agreed 100%.
04/03/2017 06:08 PMPosted by Körithas
I completely agree with you. It just shouldn't be based on your gear level.


Meanwhile most people clearing it are 895 to 905.

The real question is what excuse GD would come up with if they did.
OP harsh truth is YOU have the gear to get it done but not the skill. Even though it looks like you name changed. A quick search on logs shows your highest parse is a 72% on tich on heroic. While most you're barely above 60%

For the OP it's not gear you need it's some skill.
04/03/2017 06:08 PMPosted by Demindar
04/03/2017 06:06 PMPosted by Argorwal
It's skill check for the lowest possible required gear (about 893ish from what I've seen so far) and better gear makes it easier eventually.

It's kinda like a solo mythic boss. Method was able to kill mythic archimond without a single legendary ring. Do you think any guild afterward that had even one was just relying on their gear and no skill was required? That is what you are saying.


Mythic Archimonde was more about mechanic handling then it was about DPS. And its a raid that involved 20 other people. Solo content and group content can not be compared.


Why? The concept is the same. Their skill allowed them to complete it at a significantly reduced ilevel than that most people would require which is what we are discussing. Eventually other people can as they increase in gear.
I'd like to add to this because it's more than just a problem of being a gear-check.

They stated their goal was to be reminiscent of the green fire quest. The problem is, they created encounters that are SHARED with multiple specs. How can you possibly create one SOLO encounter balanced between specs that have completely different playstyles? The answer is that they didn't. All they succeeded in doing was showing how some specs are able to cheese mechanics better than others.

Speaking as an Affliction lock here, I share the same scenario as you would on a Frost mage. The odd inconsistency I see is that Warlock abilities are on a PVP-based timer/diminishing return while Frost mage's slowing effects are not. We rely on one legendary to snare while frost mages need no such thing. The only slow we have is Cripple from our pet, but it's on a PVP timer. Our gateway is on a 2 minute cooldown unless we have the legendary pants to use it twice. Mages can talent in to multiple teleports on much much lower cooldowns.

Furthermore, they conveniently added slowing pools on the ground that you'd think would allow those specs like warlocks that have no inherent slows to kite the boss through them (skill-based?) but no. They do not affect the boss and there's no blue post on whether or not that's intentional. The boss has no threat table unless it randomly decides to attack your tank pet for inconsistent reasons.

Why is it that their goal was to have a skill-based scenario yet they didn't decide to use their ilvl scaling technology they applied to the ENTIRE broken isles and let player skill speak for itself rather than pure gear level or just pure legendary gear luck?

I loved the green fire quest and it was a gear check even back then, but at least it was possible without being a mythic raider and you didn't need those 1 or 2 pieces of legendary gear to even have a chance. At least the green fire quest was designed specifically with warlock toolkits in mind rather than throwing an obscenely scaled boss at a variety of unrelated specs.
04/03/2017 06:22 PMPosted by Tswiftt
OP harsh truth is YOU have the gear to get it done but not the skill. Even though it looks like you name changed. A quick search on logs shows your highest parse is a 72% on tich on heroic. While most you're barely above 60%

For the OP it's not gear you need it's some skill.


Because DPS = Skill, amirite? Take a good hard look at the parses and what legendaries they have. Then look at the ones I was using. Gear carries a lot, and not having the BiS legendaries and trinkets affects it to a great extent. Also; ilvl was lower back then.

But again. DPS = Skill. I forgot. Please tell me how to get better :)

Now please, stop hiding behind an alt, and post on your main big boy ;)
Skill and a bit of gear will get you it now. Gear and a bit of skill will get you it later.

Not the first time blizzard has made difficult stuff incrementally 'easier' to get through at some point. It won't be the last.
Just think about the green fire quest. I did it as a Destro lock at ilvl 48x (can't remember exactly, think it was 489).

But there's no way I would have done it at that ilvl as either Demonology or Affliction. Destruction was the only spec that could beat Kanrethad without getting gear from Normal ToT or higher.

It's the same imbalance here. Fury and Unholy have the same boss, Agatha, but you're smoking something if you think Unholy can do it as easily as Fury can. Unholy has Dark Succor healing, but Fury has a vastly superior toolkit (high mobility, multiple CCs), and it gets even better when Fury can just use Draught to delete a clump of imps or her shield. Odyn's Fury alone is amazing.

Meanwhile my retarded abomination likes to camp out on the boss while I'm switching targets out of melee range and he just gets squished, forcing me to either resummon him or go several seconds without a major chunk of my damage. I'm setting up macros to all of my abilities to get my abom to change targets when I do to try to eliminate that.

And Ferals have it even worse. They've got Agatha too, but I literally cannot fathom how a Feral would do this encounter. There's so much cleave and target swapping.
04/03/2017 05:49 PMPosted by Demindar
No matter how much Blizzard claims they are skill based, this is not what they are. Blizz called them a "Skill Based Scenario" which could not be anymore untrue.

In order for something to be skill based, it depends on just that.. the persons overall skill. Handling Mechanics, Interrupts, Target Switching, Etc are all examples of making something skill based.

However, having things hit you for 50% of your health (Poor tanks, I'm so sorry!), or just not having enough healing, or dps is NOT skill. I understand theres a fine line for things on how skill contributes to dps / hps / mitigation, but that only takes you so far. If you know HOW to do the mechanics, and are consistently getting to a certain point but can't pass it because your dps or hps required isnt high enough, then that strays away from being skill based, and becomes gear based.

In a quote from Ornyx, he contradicts himself by saying:
As I'm sure you're aware, our journey through Legion is not yet over, and as the expansion continues, your character will undoubtedly become stronger through Artifact progression, gear upgrades, etc.


then goes on to say:

It's also worthwhile to note that each Artifact appearance in the game has a different source. Some reflect dedication to a particular style of gameplay, such as raiding or PvP - but unlocking this appearance should show that you've truly mastered your spec.


So which one is it Blizz, do you want to prove we are masters of our spec? Or do you want us to show that we simply out geared the content?

Please make up your mind. Is it a Skill Check by mastering your spec, or is it a Gear Check by just simply out gearing it?

If its a skill check, make mechanics more important, making sure people use all their abilities like they should be, utilizing their full kit, interrupting "x" add when it needs to be, kiting "x" mob when it needs to be, using "x" defensive ability when needed. If its a skill check, and not a gear check, lower the DPS/HPS requirements and the insane damage taken.


except you do have to kite and interrupt adds, it's just that you also need gear to do it.
04/03/2017 06:50 PMPosted by Scorchas
except you do have to kite and interrupt adds, it's just that you also need gear to do it


Yeah, nothing says "skilled" like being able to interrupt and kite.

/s

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