Brewmasters in 7.2.5

Legion Class Development
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04/03/2017 03:20 PMPosted by Celestalon
Another point of feedback is that Brew charges feel totally wasted when not tanking (or in a low damage phase), whereas on other tanks they can at least get some offensive value out of them.

This is rather experimental, but we're going to try adding an additional effect to Purifying Brew: "Also increases the damage of your next Breath of Fire by 50%." (tuning not final of course).

And FYI, it looks like we are going to be able to fit these latest changes (this one included) into the first PTR build.


So. Shall I assume that we'll be able to cast PB without stagger?

It sounds like the whole point of this rework is to give us something to do when not the boss focus, other than build up ISB stacks and DPS in between.

Why not consider some ability that allows us to dump remaining ISB into an offensive buff if we so choose? That would fit the drunken fighter fantasy. Call it something like "mean drunk" or "liquid power".
PErfect time to start high and slowly nerf down instead of starting down and slowly buffing!

monk community is a very small one!
04/03/2017 03:50 PMPosted by Wilson
A smarter approach to the cheesing problem, is a 'stagger-per-strike' limit.


A per-hit Stagger limit is not a possible option, since the damage in question is not guaranteed to be a single hit. Ex: Something like Spellblade's Annihilation, or a pack of many adds.
04/03/2017 03:34 PMPosted by Zoomkins
Lol the amount of down votes from Monks are real when its an obvious statement of fact.


The funnier part is your surprise that monks are downvoting a post requesting info about other classes in a thread dedicated to monks.
04/03/2017 04:11 PMPosted by Yuda
04/03/2017 03:20 PMPosted by Celestalon
Another point of feedback is that Brew charges feel totally wasted when not tanking (or in a low damage phase), whereas on other tanks they can at least get some offensive value out of them.

This is rather experimental, but we're going to try adding an additional effect to Purifying Brew: "Also increases the damage of your next Breath of Fire by 50%." (tuning not final of course).

And FYI, it looks like we are going to be able to fit these latest changes (this one included) into the first PTR build.


So. Shall I assume that we'll be able to cast PB without stagger?

It sounds like the whole point of this rework is to give us something to do when not the boss focus, other than build up ISB stacks and DPS in between.

Why not consider some ability that allows us to dump remaining ISB into an offensive buff if we so choose? That would fit the drunken fighter fantasy. Call it something like "mean drunk" or "liquid power".


Makes too much sense -- you can't expect a development team that wants to completely rebuild a class in the middle of an expansion to do things that make sense or have any degree of rationality behind them.

It's okay though, we get to sit here and listen to how much smarter Celestalon is than the rest of us. O based Celestalon, if only we were as mentally mighty as you, but alas, I am but a peasant that actually plays my class.
04/03/2017 04:18 PMPosted by Celestalon
04/03/2017 03:50 PMPosted by Wilson
A smarter approach to the cheesing problem, is a 'stagger-per-strike' limit.


A per-hit Stagger limit is not a possible option, since the damage in question is not guaranteed to be a single hit. Ex: Something like Spellblade's Annihilation, or a pack of many adds.


Does this mean Paladins will no longer be able to bubble Spellblade's annihilation? I'm assuming significant Ironfur nerfs for druids then? Yeah? Right? Parity across the classes?
04/03/2017 03:34 PMPosted by Zoomkins
04/03/2017 03:27 PMPosted by Zoomkins
...
Any input on actual other classes that are in worse states than monks? Cough*Hunters,DKs,Warlocks*


Lol the amount of down votes from Monks are real when its an obvious statement of fact.


That's because it's a blue thread specifically about Brewmaster Monks, ya lemon loaf
04/03/2017 04:18 PMPosted by Celestalon
04/03/2017 03:50 PMPosted by Wilson
A smarter approach to the cheesing problem, is a 'stagger-per-strike' limit.


A per-hit Stagger limit is not a possible option, since the damage in question is not guaranteed to be a single hit. Ex: Something like Spellblade's Annihilation, or a pack of many adds.


What damage is in question exactly? We know that its not 100 energy fel scythes, since 5/6 tanks can do that right now.
04/03/2017 04:42 PMPosted by Swagmilf
04/03/2017 04:18 PMPosted by Celestalon
...

A per-hit Stagger limit is not a possible option, since the damage in question is not guaranteed to be a single hit. Ex: Something like Spellblade's Annihilation, or a pack of many adds.


What damage is in question exactly? We know that its not 100 energy fel scythes, since 5/6 tanks can do that right now.


No, it is, it's just that it's only problematic that Brewmasters can do it.
04/03/2017 04:11 PMPosted by Yuda
04/03/2017 03:20 PMPosted by Celestalon
Another point of feedback is that Brew charges feel totally wasted when not tanking (or in a low damage phase), whereas on other tanks they can at least get some offensive value out of them.

This is rather experimental, but we're going to try adding an additional effect to Purifying Brew: "Also increases the damage of your next Breath of Fire by 50%." (tuning not final of course).

And FYI, it looks like we are going to be able to fit these latest changes (this one included) into the first PTR build.


So. Shall I assume that we'll be able to cast PB without stagger?

It sounds like the whole point of this rework is to give us something to do when not the boss focus, other than build up ISB stacks and DPS in between.

Why not consider some ability that allows us to dump remaining ISB into an offensive buff if we so choose? That would fit the drunken fighter fantasy. Call it something like "mean drunk" or "liquid power".


That's actually a really, really cool idea... like if I use all 6 ISB charges at the start of the fight with Black Ox Brew, 3 would go into the new capped ISB time, and then the next 3 that overcap would provide 24 seconds of super mean-drunk DPS buff.

And yeah, as pointed out, we can't purify if we're not staggering. :)

24 seconds is closer to reasonable on the capped time. I would hope for maybe a bit more, but I can manage that. And it sounds like you all are considering what brew-waste would feel like, so that's good.

I'd personally like to see some of the over-capping brew talents like BoB or Blackout Combo get something beneficial as well, since they're losing a ton of defensive value. The mean-drunk idea was pretty neat.
I just want to say that 200% and 3x ISB is a step in the right direction. The amount of armor and health you would need to buff to get us into a playable 100% stagger window is just nuts me.

That said, I regularly use BoC to pause stagger and I can easily get to a point where I hit purify 2-3 times and still have a red stagger bar in normal regular play, especially in high mythic +. That means I pretty regularly hit a stagger value 300-500% health through normal play.

I have built my character specifically to build as much stagger through pausing stagger as long as I can before I have to purify. I'm stacking haste, I have the 4 set t19, and I'm also stacking relics with the face palm trait to be able to do that. I find this play style to be fun, high risk high reward.

I dunno, I'm just rambling I guess. I can't for the life of me think of a way I'd still be able to continue this play style with the new t20 set and these proposed limitations, which really upsets me.

I still feel if you cap stagger we are going to at the very least have to have much stronger purifies (75%-100%) and/or some baseline CDs like guard or diffuse magic.
04/03/2017 12:52 PMPosted by Edgewalkerr
Second - if cheese is a concern stagger should have a limit per hit, not a limit per max stagger.


Why can't the "full felscythe" of tomb of sargeras just deal enough damage that it cannot be "cheesed"? Why would there be a need to change something over spilt milk?

Mythic raiding is about efficiency, in terms of preventing damage this most often means condensing as much damage as possible into as short a window as possible, and then reducing all of it at the same time via external and cool downs, as a class that will effectively have a maximum absorb, brewmasters will likely no longer fit in the mythic raiding meta...

If I think about spellblade: (8*~4.5mil/4sec) then increase it by 75% for a single stack of the debuff, now, that's 63million physical damage.

The accepted norm among raiders is that you bring two tanks, with anything beyond that being a cheese strat.

The second tank will not only be off dealing with the add, but also have two stacks of the debuff, so if they shared damage with you the total damage would increase...
04/03/2017 04:18 PMPosted by Celestalon
04/03/2017 03:50 PMPosted by Wilson
A smarter approach to the cheesing problem, is a 'stagger-per-strike' limit.


A per-hit Stagger limit is not a possible option, since the damage in question is not guaranteed to be a single hit. Ex: Something like Spellblade's Annihilation, or a pack of many adds.

To be honest all of this "cheesing and brewmaster" thing sounds either like you're totally not aware of the fact that a lot of tank classes are able to cheese different mechanics or just like a bad excuse to make some changes to BRM for no reason.
04/03/2017 04:57 PMPosted by Alveona
04/03/2017 04:18 PMPosted by Celestalon
...

A per-hit Stagger limit is not a possible option, since the damage in question is not guaranteed to be a single hit. Ex: Something like Spellblade's Annihilation, or a pack of many adds.

To be honest all of this "cheesing and brewmaster" thing sounds either like you're totally not aware of the fact that a lot of tank classes are able to cheese different mechanics or just like a bad excuse to make some changes to BRM for no reason.


Is it that hard to believe at this point that Blizzard doesn't know Paladins have bubbles?
04/03/2017 04:57 PMPosted by Alveona
To be honest all of this "cheesing and brewmaster" thing sounds either like you're totally not aware of the fact that a lot of tank classes are able to cheese different mechanics or just like a bad excuse to make some changes to BRM for no reason.


We are absolutely aware that similar mechanics can be cheesed by other classes. It's a matter of how trivial it is to do, how frequently they can do it, how much external assistance they need, etc. A Paladin being able to Divine Shield through 1 Fel Scythe every 5min is acceptable. A Brewmaster being able to just 2-3x Purify every one of them is not. Guardians are also quite high on ability to do that, which will also be adjusted.
04/03/2017 05:09 PMPosted by Celestalon
04/03/2017 04:57 PMPosted by Alveona
To be honest all of this "cheesing and brewmaster" thing sounds either like you're totally not aware of the fact that a lot of tank classes are able to cheese different mechanics or just like a bad excuse to make some changes to BRM for no reason.


We are absolutely aware that similar mechanics can be cheesed by other classes. It's a matter of how trivial it is to do, how frequently they can do it, how much external assistance they need, etc. A Paladin being able to Divine Shield through 1 Fel Scythe every 5min is acceptable. A Brewmaster being able to just 2-3x Purify every one of them is not. Guardians are also quite high on ability to do that, which will also be adjusted.


You keep saying Bears will be adjusted - can you explain how?
Using Purifying Brew offensively, in situations where you might not have stagger to purify, feels a bit strange. I can appreciate the goal of giving players something other than spamming ISB for Special Delivery procs when off-tanking the boss, so just giving some feedback that the double combo of purifying + keg smash feels like a lot of GCDs for amping up a not very powerful spell.
A lot of the current Mythic content really feels tuned around Monks and Bears in terms of how hard abilities hit us, honestly. For most other tanks, they're nearly destroyed by some of even the smaller mechanics. Ex. Mythic Gul'dan's melees. Some tanks can't even get away with tanking him full time because they'd just get completely destroyed. Are you planning to tune down the damage of some of these things accordingly in future tiers to compensate for nerfing Bears and Monks as outliers?
04/03/2017 04:18 PMPosted by Celestalon
04/03/2017 03:50 PMPosted by Wilson
A smarter approach to the cheesing problem, is a 'stagger-per-strike' limit.


A per-hit Stagger limit is not a possible option, since the damage in question is not guaranteed to be a single hit. Ex: Something like Spellblade's Annihilation, or a pack of many adds.


So basically, I'm not allowed to take any physical hit or burst of damage equivalent to (2*maxhp/0.85) =~14mil damage
Now, earlier, I calculated spellblade's annihilate solo at 63million damage with 1 1.75x damage modifier

So if we cheese the fight, and bring a third tank to split the damage with that's 31.5million damage, still more than double the stagger cap

If we get even cheesier and have a dps taunt the stack then still splitting with our cheesy third tank we still take 18million damage. So basically, starting any of these with realistic health and stagger we die while doing the fight in any manner with these needs.
I may not have factored armour here but..
And if we are not 'cheesing' the fight, there's also a double stack annihilate to 'assume' we soak

There's also countless mythic+ situations that we will just die to pulling amounts of mobs other tanks can pull off.

I thought Blizzard's stance was that if content was released 'too easy' then it would just be let alone.
So why are there these changes that will break what we can and cannot do, indirectly buffing already cleared content?
The changes are just so limiting on both ends. it is a lot of micro-managing that simply will not be possible without add-ons and with no reward. Just like feral druids, it will be max complexity with no reward.

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