Brewmasters in 7.2.5

Legion Class Development
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04/07/2017 11:49 AMPosted by Oiysademon
I'm not jealous of anything, good grief. We're talking about math.

Keeping ISB up 100% of the time is no more mandatory than any other tank keeping their AM up 100% of the time, but it sure does make life easy when you can.

Without that ability you'd simply be as spiky as the rest of us.

I'm NOT saying other tweaks would not need to be made, they probably would. But there's no getting around the fact that Brewmasters will have to end up more spiky and vulnerable to getting gibbed to be balanced. Just like bears will need to be.

Brewmasters are far beyond "viable", just like bears.


Sorry...but where's this math you're talking about? Because all i'm seeing is you saying "This is op because BrM is at the same baseline as other classes without ISB up". Which I don't see proof for.

People have explained how our ISB works and the issues we can encounter plenty of this thread. I don't think explaining it again will do much. But right now it seems like it is working as intended for us to have ISB up most of, if not all of the time. ISB is not demon spikes.

The thing is that not all tanks are designed like self healing tanks. I'm not happy with the state of DH but I don't see the reason in thinking that everyone should take damage the same way as a class who is supposed to be able to heal up. Both types of tanks can exist and be strong though. DK's have in the past had moments of being exceptionally powerful. The issue is making a class that can self heal too tanky and right now it doesn't seem to be in the best place. The power can easily shift to where self heal can be more reliable than just mitigation based tanks.

There are different types of tanks. The issue you're encountering is you are trying to force the weaknesses of a self heal tank onto a mitigation tank without giving them a boon. The other issue we run into is that druid gets the best of both worlds. With high health, mitigation and decent self heal.

I don't get advocating for tanking getting spiked and gibbed though. By nature that sounds like a shoddy tank to play. Especially if that tank doesn't get the self heal another class does.
04/07/2017 04:11 AMPosted by Localpanda
My proposed solution:

Lower ISB to 20%, and default Stagger to 35%. Lower Stagger cap to 100%. The ring will now increase the Stagger cap to 130% instead of its current effect. Leave BoC as is. Sure, let BoF and BoS add a stack of our mastery. The extra dodges will let us continue being solid Physical tanks.

Increase the "paused stagger" duration to 5 seconds. Since there's a hard 100% cap to Stagger, it won't be let BrM's cheese mechanics because paused or not, Stagger caps at 100%.

Remove Mystic Vitality and all Stagger MR. Give us a baseline MR cooldown. All other tanks have one. Historically, Magic in WoW was designed to go through baseline defenses, and only be mitigated by abilities or Magic Resist gear (now depreciated). We shouldn't have passive Magic DR.

Also, Fortifying Brew should be renamed to Fortifying Elixir and now just lowers damage taken by 35% on a unmodified 3 minute cooldown.

Numbers can be tweaked but that's the gist of it. Maybe buff our Health/Armor to compensate for the lower Stagger % but that's about it.

Also increase the Haste thresholds and remove the 1.0 GCD for Brewmaster. None of the other tanks have it, and nor should BrMs. Even Mistweaver doesn't have the 1.0s GCD.

These suggestions probably shouldn't all be taken at once, but they are simple numbers tuning that will quickly bandage our spec. Guardians can have similer fixes by lowering the stamina and armor gains from Guardian's Bear form and lowering their magic mitigation.


Read all the posts before suggesting nonsense.
04/07/2017 11:49 AMPosted by Oiysademon
04/06/2017 06:50 AMPosted by Bearfu
It feels to me like you have no experience with the spec and you're just looking at "100% ISB uptime is easy" as a way to say "brewmasters are broken and I'm jealous" without actually understanding why it's mandatory for us to keep the buff up the entire time.

We're not arguing against changes, and some of us have even suggested a number of alternatives to accomplish Blizzard's goals without completely redesigning the spec. We are arguing against changes that impact our ability to be viable in high end content. There's a significant difference.


I'm not jealous of anything, good grief. We're talking about math.

Keeping ISB up 100% of the time is no more mandatory than any other tank keeping their AM up 100% of the time, but it sure does make life easy when you can.

Without that ability you'd simply be as spiky as the rest of us.

I'm NOT saying other tweaks would not need to be made, they probably would. But there's no getting around the fact that Brewmasters will have to end up more spiky and vulnerable to getting gibbed to be balanced. Just like bears will need to be.

Brewmasters are far beyond "viable", just like bears.


Lets nerf Vengeance DH armor by 20% and leave them with Demon Spikes and Meta as their only defensive CDs. Yes, no Soul Shards either.

I'm NOT saying other tweaks would not need to be made, but in the end you will be a garbage tank anyway.
04/07/2017 11:49 AMPosted by Oiysademon
We're talking about math.


Show me the math, then. Raw numbers show that we have the lowest base armor of every tank. Thus, we take more physical damage than every other tank. Other specs have the base armor to survive not having 100% uptime on their active mitigation. Brewmasters do not. Instead, we simply maintain a buff that allows us to delay damage so that, while we still take more damage than other tanks, we take it slower. If we took that damage up front, we would die instantly because we have no other means to manage our damage intake.
04/01/2017 01:26 AMPosted by Celestalon
If the two tanks were 'balanced' in the first fight, then the Brewmaster is overpowered in the second. Alternatively, if you argue that they're balanced in the second fight, that means they're underpowered in the first. The goal of this change is to place a reasonable limit on how much value you can carry over from time spent not tanking, so that we can tune the tanks to be balanced in both of these situations, not just one of them.

I totally get that right now you can always get benefit out of hitting Ironskin Brew, never being fully wasted, and so the prospect of going to a system where there may be a time where you're just sitting on full charges, wasting them sounds like a negative. Please understand that for most other tanks, that's just normal; a Warrior that's not tanking is just wasting the defensive value of their Shield Block charges once at max charges, and that's just an accepted norm. By bringing Brewmasters into parity in this regard, we can then tune them to be more consistently balanced with other tanks, which is the core goal of the change.

[/quote]

This scenario is theoretical at best and assumes that the off tank is doing nothing but dps any time that they aren't actively main tanking. Hardly any of the boss fights in nighthold present brewmasters with situations where there is zero need to purify while offtanking and the ones that do are fairly mechanically shallow fights to begin with (anomaly, skorp).

IMO, I feel like yall are misdiagnosing the issue at hand here. It isn't about brews banking ISB time while they off tank due to not needing to purify. Sure you can do that but again it assumes the off tank has nothing to do while not actively tanking. The issue is that brews can reach high levels of banked ISB time even when main tanking. When I solo tank tichondrus I regularly finish the fight with around 1:30 of banked ISB time despite liberal use of Purify throughout the fight and only about 17% haste. So really the problem here isn't the amount of ISB time that we can bank, it is that it is far too easy to do so. This leads me to two points:

1: T19 4 piece is contributing to this problem, however that will be going away as people break set to replace with tomb gear. To that end I don't think that yall should be messing with ISB at all until you see the numbers without T19 bonuses affecting them.

2: Black Ox Brew should probably have a slightly higher cooldown since it is the primary contributor to insane ISB time banking. Increasing the cooldown would still allow for it to reward good game play and rotations while also bringing down the amount of ISB banking that is going on. It would also make the other tier 3 talents worth considering because currently Black Ox is miles beyond the other two.

Lastly, I, as well as many other brews in this thread feel as though putting a cap on ISB time adds tedium to the already most mechanically complex tank in the game. Banking time should be something that you can do in fights so that managing two entwined AM mechanics isn't necessary during chaotic portions of a fight. You bank time during the luls in a fight so that you can focus on surviving or moving out of things during the hectic parts.
Yes, a warrior who sit at max shield charge not actively tanking is 'wasting' those charge... but that imply the warrior do nothing for 20 second, which doesn't happen often at all on any tough fight (who care about skorpyron/anomaly).

Also, ironskin brew is only half of the AM of monk; you need to purify it's damage.

Finally, while I'm not opposed to a cap on ironskin duration... 24s is still seem waay too low.

again, ironskin duration is an issue with one very specific fight (botanist). on every other fight ending it with 1 min+ left on ironskin is merely an indication you poorly managed your brew and could've purified more.
@Celestalon

I think capping ISB up time like this is not fun, and it's more at the mechanical interactions level. The current implementation imposes no such limit on the amount of ISB you can stack, and arbitrarily capping that doesn't seem like a good way to fix this from a design perspective. When what the real problem is from a basic mechanics interaction standpoint it's flawed.

To elaborate, ISB takes after the warriors shield block in design, you have multiple stacks of it that you can build up, and using it multiple times increases the buffs duration. For warriors this works fine because the buff for shield block falls off at approximately the same rate as they can apply it, if not less depending on the build. This design doesn't work for ISB because brewmasters can apply stacks of ISB vastly faster then the buff falls off.

Design wise I think ISB would benefit more from moving away from an adoption of the warriors/demon hunters active mitigation style and move toward a design that's more similar to the guardian druid or death knights active mitigation.

Two examples of what I mean:

- First imagine a redesign (druid based mechanics) of ISB where it applies a stacking buff that increases the amount of damage staggered by 10% (with the current tier set maybe adding 2% per stack) each stack of ISB applied would only last it's duration (base 7.5 seconds with traits) and then that stack would fall off. Note that not all of the stacks would fall off, just when a stacks individually managed duration burns out does that particular stack get removed.

For example I start a fight actively tanking:
- First GCD I Apply ISB -- I will stagger 40% + 10% = 50% of damage
- Second GCD i Apply ISB - I will stagger 50% + 10% = 60% of damage
- I stop actively tanking due to a taunt swap for 6.5 seconds
- My frist application of ISB falls off -- I will stagger 60% - 10% = 50% of damage

In this design example the brew master the brewmaster has incentive to hold onto brew stacks while not tanking, to build haste to their liking, and stops the absurd thing happening in brewmaster tanking where we build up 7 minutes of ISB by the end of a M+ dungeon or particularly long boss.

- Second redesign (death knight based mechanics) where similar to bone shield, ISB has stacks and each stack blocks a hit, and casting ISB refreshes the buff duration (instead of extending it) and adds a few stacks to the buff. This approach intuitively gives you a reasonable sense of when to stop casting ISB (because you're at max stacks) and gives more incentive into a haste and mastery build to your liking, as they would effect your ability to manage ISB stacks/applications.

These are just some of my thoughts, I appreciate your time and any thoughts or additions to this.
I'm really too much of a tanking noob to contribute much to this discussion on my BrM, but it's good to see Blue actively engaging us here in the process instead of just dumping these changes onto live realms.
The big difference of warrior and brewmaster active mitigation is that, once the warrior pops his active mitigation, he is actually mitigating damage! Monks need to purify in order to really mitigate something, If i were you i would remove the "reduce the cd" of brews from habilities and give them more mitigation power, like empowering BoF or something, and put ISB and Purifying Brew on 2 stacks each with fixed cds, this way we are more like the other tanks while still being able to keep 100% uptime on ISB and purify when needed.
in light of the change proposed to guardian druid (removal of mark of ursol) I'd agree with the cap on ISB for monk; yes it's a nerf.. a substantial one...

However, as long as all tank are equal (and the target seem to be kinda closer to the current status of war/dh/dk instead of the assumed status of monk/pallies) then the proposed change to ISB, severly limiting the amount of purify you can do in a single 24 second window , are still acceptable.

Yes i know my avatar is a warrior but I play a monk.
I'm going to be sad to see it shrink either way, but I think i would still prefer it at at least 32 seconds cap
04/08/2017 09:51 AMPosted by Vlerg
in light of the change proposed to guardian druid (removal of mark of ursol) I'd agree with the cap on ISB for monk; yes it's a nerf.. a substantial one...

However, as long as all tank are equal (and the target seem to be kinda closer to the current status of war/dh/dk instead of the assumed status of monk/pallies) then the proposed change to ISB, severly limiting the amount of purify you can do in a single 24 second window , are still acceptable.

Yes i know my avatar is a warrior but I play a monk.

No, it substantially nerfs magic sure but it also more substantially nerfs our physical.

If anything, They can chop mystic vitality or make it work only with your base stagger amount pre-ISB but if they are trying to chop our magic mitigation they cant go hacking away at things that help us with physical to do it.

I'd like to remind the community that regardless to what you may feel about Monk tanks, we still take around 20% more damage than any other tank right now and we're the only tank without absorbs and/or self heals of any notable value.
04/08/2017 09:51 AMPosted by Vlerg
in light of the change proposed to guardian druid (removal of mark of ursol) I'd agree with the cap on ISB for monk; yes it's a nerf.. a substantial one...

However, as long as all tank are equal (and the target seem to be kinda closer to the current status of war/dh/dk instead of the assumed status of monk/pallies) then the proposed change to ISB, severly limiting the amount of purify you can do in a single 24 second window , are still acceptable.

Yes i know my avatar is a warrior but I play a monk.

Adding any sort of cap without first seeing how it affects us without T19 4 piece seems like a bad idea.

If Magic damage is a big issue for them, maybe nerf the amount vitality can stagger by say 25% of its current value.

Druid mastery can cover the removal of the ability plus their new tier set with frenzied regen. Not to mention the highest health pool in the game and being the undisputed king of progression tanking for 3 raids now.

Again, Brewmasters were allowed to be put into the spot their in now due to the combination of changes / improvements to talents along with gear scaling. Let's see raw numbers before deciding to drastically change things as drastically as this.

Brewmasters don't need sweeping changes. They are fun as it is to play now. I agree they need a couple of tweaks and adjustments but most of the Blue suggestions here completely break the class for mythic raid viability.
I'll post this everywhere I can, bring back clash. It was the single most satisfying button of any class or spec.
This definitely brings about some bad feels for me. I'm wondering if were gonna fall to the bottom of the totem pole again in terms of tanks to bring to raid. I'm a mythic raider... hitting that 200% stagger cap would be extremely easy I believe... which leaves me dead. We also lack self sustain.... our healing is sub-par if non existent... and as far as staking ISB sometimes I need a big pool of it.. so I can focus on purifying big abilities...

Is there a chance that we will see a boost to our sustain? perhaps making healing spheres heal for more and trigger from our own attacks like they did back in WOD. I understand that everyone wants to go back to the high haste day's but it seems terrible in comparison to high mastery/crit builds. I understand haste reduces all of our cd's but just with ISB lone doesn't do as much as a high crit/mastery build would do for you in current mythic content.

please just dont destroy our class blizz t-t, Our ability to take huge damage and survive is currently our only raid utility that we have... if you take that away from us... why would anyone bring us to raids anymore.
Well initially I was worried but after seeing all of this feedback from the devs, I feel confident that BrM spec will be better than it is now, even if it takes some tuning!

I really appreciate the attention and communication you Devs are giving us.
04/10/2017 09:02 AMPosted by Brewtle
Well initially I was worried but after seeing all of this feedback from the devs, I feel confident that BrM spec will be better than it is now, even if it takes some tuning!

I really appreciate the attention and communication you Devs are giving us.


Better than? I doubt it, I think maybe there is potential with added defensive incentive on BoF etc.(not saying it doesn't already have it), but I think the stagger duration changes won't be very kind to us.
Let's home you're wrong Kapetown :(
Continuing to iterate...

Special Delivery already fills the role of giving an offensive value to Brew charges, but not in a reliable way. Instead of the Purifying Brew -> Breath of Fire buff, we're going to try making Special Delivery reliable. If you're the type of player that dislikes Brew charges being wasted when not tanking, Special Delivery already is attractive, and we're just going to make that feel better by being reliable.

FYI, the first datamineable PTR build likely won't have this change.

EDIT: "Reliable" meaning 100% proc chance, damage per keg reduced to compensate.
04/10/2017 06:48 PMPosted by Celestalon
Continuing to iterate...

Special Delivery already fills the role of giving an offensive value to Brew charges, but not in a reliable way. Instead of the Purifying Brew -> Breath of Fire buff, we're going to try making Special Delivery reliable. If you're the type of player that dislikes Brew charges being wasted when not tanking, Special Delivery already is attractive, and we're just going to make that feel better by being reliable.

FYI, the first datamineable PTR build likely won't have this change.

EDIT: "Reliable" meaning 100% proc chance, damage per keg reduced to compensate.


You mean we dont have to take RJW in dodgens? ^.^ that my freind sounds like more choice, and more choice is never a bad thing.

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