PSA: Creatures now scale with item level

General Discussion
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By the way, this thread is looking to reach a third of the replies in under two days than the Nostalrius thread managed to get over the course of its entire lifespan of eight months.

When so many people have to express their open criticism and outright hatred of an unwanted feature that you so blatantly managed to try sneaking into the game without putting it into the patch notes, you'd better believe people are upset about this. Moreso than flying, moreso with the Camera Distance nerfs (still immensely annoyed about that, by the way), and moreso than WoD as a whole.
WoW gear progression timeline.

Until Legion: ''Play well and get nice things. Play better and get nicer things.

Legion(Advent of RNG): Hurry! Hurry! Hurry! Step right up folks, for the chance of a lifetime! A flick of the wrist, a roll of the dice and you can be a WINNAH!

Legion (Scaling): https://youtu.be/5bLX06yR3wY
03/29/2017 01:54 PMPosted by Adeleane
YOU flat out LIED to your CUSTOMERS Blizzard.


That's the crux of it, really.

Even if you have no problems with the new scaling and aren't getting your face beaten in, that alone should irk you.

Giving your money to a company that has no regard for actual communication, actual feedback and the majority of actual players. The nameplate API change because of the 1% of the 1% of players was a glaring example of that, and now this.
Please, revert this change, level scale is ok, but ilvl scale is a bad thing.
03/29/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Selesne
I almost never post. I've been playing since vanilla (technically since the beta before vanilla) and there are actually very few if any decisions you've made that I thought were straight up terrible.

This decision is straight up terrible.

Everything about this situation is a disaster.

The idea that you would scale the open world like this, killing the player's sense of power and progression is terrible. It's terrible in almost every RPG and it's especially terrible in a game so focused on player power progression as WoW. WoW is fundamentally about loot and getting stronger and trivializing content that used to be hard, it's been about that since vanilla.

The fact that you didn't test it on the PTR and put it directly into live is terrible.

The fact that you wouldn't put it in the patch notes after always talking about how you don't try to hide things on purpose is terrible. It also makes no sense since as you said, the players will figure it out immediately, and you had to know there would be a backlash.

I almost always side with devs in situations like this, because I've been one myself, and because I know players don't always see the full picture or even know what they actually want. But in this case you just completely !@#$ed up, this was a terrible decision, terribly executed.


And instead of fixing the problem, they have a downloadable patch to nerf Nethershard drop rates...UNBELIEVABLE!! When is Watcher going to be held responsible for all of his incompetency?
03/29/2017 01:57 PMPosted by Dreadfury
Welcome to a bigger PR disaster than WoD flying. Hopefully this one ends with more than just a half-reasonable solution.


it should, they'll get rid of this ilvl scaling or *at least* tone it back to the point they may as well have gotten rid of it. The outrage here is pretty intense (and rightfully so, might I add) and so much that they cannot just gloss folks over.

I'd say hang tight and keep input coming on this one. They'll fix it.
03/29/2017 01:20 PMPosted by Drusyn
I don't like the change but I think some of you need to read Watchers first post.

He acknowledges that they said they weren't going to do it and explains why they decided to do it anyways.

He explains why they didn't put it in the patch notes.

He states they realize removing gear is a fault in the system and are looking into it.

Why do you guys ask for blue posts only to ignore the blue posts?


Because the blue post was condescending, arrogant, and smug.

Kind of like how when we received a blue post in response to the issues with Wowhead's malware and excessive/intrusive ads, the blue post responded with an implied threat of forum ban, because they accused us of "blackmail", when all we did is report the different types of problems, with detailed repositories of proof, evidence, and analyses, including code/data-mined analysis.

Likewise, Watcher admitted to being caught lying, and was proud of it, to the point of displaying significant smugness.

His reasoning behind "not putting it in patch notes" is more of a matter of lack of transparency, deception, and purposeful lack of communication in the first place.

And in his admission of getting caught trying to shuffle things behind our backs, and in his admission of his lies, he also presumed us to be idiots that wouldn't pick up on these tricks. He implicitly called us idiots, and proceeds to be smug and asinine about the response towards this backlash.
03/29/2017 01:51 PMPosted by Thrunn
But they should acknowledge that the undocumented update touching on the very soul of the game has been very poorly received by a vocal percentage of the playing base.


In reaction to the volume of tiered loot from multiple sources that were making old, but expansion relevant content too easy. Someone with an ilvl of 900+ should not pull half the mobs in a World Quest and nuke them in one shot, denying a chance for fresh 110's to tag the same mobs.

Its a subconscious response to a new loot system that was gearing players at lightning speed.

03/29/2017 01:51 PMPosted by Thrunn
This is completely self inflicted on the dev team's part. They created a problem to fix an issue that did not exist.


Maybe so, but the sense of exaggeration and hyperbole coming from players who don't even bother reading Blue posts in the first place are becoming commonplace.

It's one thing to be displeased at an admittedly bugged mechanic, however when you start involving the personal lives of developers and their jobs, or threatening to unsub over exaggerated claims does not strengthen your complaints.
03/29/2017 01:37 PMPosted by Roxette
We also never had CRZ and shared tagging in current content either, it will be a huge problem by the end of the expansion.


One of the purposes of CRZ is dynamic mob respawn rates. If the mobs are getting "one-shot" as Watcher is worried about, CRZ will adjust and they'll spawn faster. I've seen it in action on high pop servers, it works. This won't be a problem. The example Watcher used is an inconsequential reason to switch to ilevel scaling given the gravity of the precedent this will set going forward.

The sole rationale for this change is to slow content consumption on the older world quests. Which cuts against the very idea of player power progression. Implement this here, and one of the basic foundations of WoW is pulled out from under players.
03/29/2017 01:59 PMPosted by Stabnslash
For the life of me I don't understand why they didn't just make mobs in the new area harder. Make them all elite, or whatever.

That way they get what they want and players still get to feel a sense of progression.

But no. Blizzard creating solutions to problems that don't exist.


Because one design goal of this x-pac was to keep the whole continent somewhat relevant so they added new reward to the old rep and also made the WQ for said rep more in line with our current power level. Before 7.2 they noticed there was no way the continent would work since we were outstripping everything (no !@#$, over 100 ilvl gain since we hit 110...) so they decided to make stuff scale. They messed up the scaling ratio but they admitted that part of the scaling is un-intended and that removing gears should never be a thing.
Doesn't matter if they made a miscalculation in power creep or not. They have entirely negated any sense of progression.

I got two "upgrades" today that I was not only NOT excited about, but did not even want to equip because of the ilvl scaling idiocy. In "How Not To Do Stupid Things 101", this would be very high on the list of things NOT to do to players.
03/29/2017 04:40 AMPosted by Aedrid
There is no gear that's going to drop off a BI world quest that is going to be better than what I have equipped. The 4 dauntless tokens I got randomly yesterday all got turned into gold as I laughed at the 850 gear they created.

Congratulations on being extremely well geared in 7.1.5. Have you considered the possibility that catchup mechanics are aimed primarily at people who need to catch up?
03/28/2017 05:14 PMPosted by Jegethy
What the hell.

I discovered this while creating an undocumented changes thread on reddit. Me, and 3 other people with vastly different item levels all see different health values for normal creatures, rares and elites.

This is the one thing that Blizzard said they wouldn't do. This removes all sense of power progression in the open world.

You can confirm this yourself - Target a mob at 110 and remove a piece of gear. Its health will immediately drop.

I've linked to this thread in a Tweet to Blizzard, so hopefully we can get some information on this.


I can confirm this as an 895 lock, who used to be able to pull 5-10 mobs and be fine and just rot them all down, now if I pull a group of portal demons on the broken shore, that have only 1.3mil hp, they are just as likely to kill me before I kill them.
03/29/2017 02:02 PMPosted by Moxie
03/29/2017 01:54 PMPosted by Adeleane
YOU flat out LIED to your CUSTOMERS Blizzard.


That's the crux of it, really.

Even if you have no problems with the new scaling and aren't getting your face beaten in, that alone should irk you.

Giving your money to a company that has no regard for actual communication, actual feedback and the majority of actual players. The nameplate API change because of the 1% of the 1% of players was a glaring example of that, and now this.


You are free to think they lide and it kind of look like it except we will never know for sure because we don't know if they just didn't just guess wrong on what would ahppen with the shower of gear we get in this x-pac (100+ ilvl difference between hitting 110 and cap before the last patch) and could just be going backward on what they though.

Unless you think they are supposed to never miss calculate something...
More than 3k posts.

We can haz blue post, kkthx?
3000 replies in under 20 hours.

Lick your wounds Blizzard - revert the BS change and get rid of this crap
03/28/2017 11:32 PMPosted by Reifier
I don't care if you think you can fix the level scaling to feel fun. You couldn't fix legendaries, you couldn't fix class balance, you couldn't fix pvp.


This made my day as I lol'd!
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.
03/29/2017 02:05 PMPosted by Stabnslash
03/29/2017 02:02 PMPosted by Moxie
...

That's the crux of it, really.

Even if you have no problems with the new scaling and aren't getting your face beaten in, that alone should irk you.

Giving your money to a company that has no regard for actual communication, actual feedback and the majority of actual players. The nameplate API change because of the 1% of the 1% of players was a glaring example of that, and now this.


You are free to think they lide and it kind of look like it except we will never know for sure because we don't know if they just didn't just guess wrong on what would ahppen with the shower of gear we get in this x-pac (100+ ilvl difference between hitting 110 and cap before the last patch) and could just be going backward on what they though.

Unless you think they are supposed to never miss calculate something...


Even if they hadn't lied about the change (which they DID), it went through COMPLETELY UNSOLICITED. Unless you believe they accidentally left it out of both PTR and Patch notes?
03/29/2017 01:59 PMPosted by Stabnslash
...

Because one design goal of this x-pac was to keep the whole continent somewhat relevant so they added new reward to the old rep and also made the WQ for said rep more in line with our current power level. Before 7.2 they noticed there was no way the continent would work since we were outstripping everything (no !@#$, over 100 ilvl gain since we hit 110...) so they decided to make stuff scale. They messed up the scaling ratio but they admitted that part of the scaling is un-intended and that removing gears should never be a thing.
Doesn't matter if they made a miscalculation in power creep or not. They have entirely negated any sense of progression.

I got two "upgrades" today that I was not only NOT excited about, but did not even want to equip because of the ilvl scaling idiocy. In "How Not To Do Stupid Things 101", this would be very high on the list of things NOT to do to players.


As they said in the blue post, getting upgrade should be upgrade but the numbers are bad right now. It should just be less of an upgrade so you don't outstrip the mobs as fast. Something along the line of a patch letting you AoE 2 time as many mobs safely instead of 3 time as many.

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