PSA: Creatures now scale with item level

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I normally keep pretty quiet about things in general because whether I like things or not is of little to no consequence to the whole WOW playerbase. Today though I feel like I need to also express my concern for this change. I have grown as WOW grown and I have changed as WOW has changed. Now that I am in my late 20s and a father I have far less time to play than I used to. I've been a top tier raider, I've been in Arenas, battlegrounds, mythic dungeons, and challenge modes. I've done timewalking dungeons, I've done old dungeons for fun. Whether the content is challenging or easy used to not matter because I used to feel rewarded for the time I put in. This change takes away that reward. I welcomed the changes that allowed players like me to catch up, I welcomed the changes to the pace at which I can play the game. Now I feel like there's no reason left to play. If I now I have an hour a day to play and am barely strong enough to complete my emissary for the day what is the point to even playing anymore? I don't have time to put so much effort and to get so far just to feel punished and for old content to get harder the stronger I become. Please revert this change.
Will there be separate scaling for healers?
@OP, you might want to quote Ornyx's recent post now. Getting that on the front page would be nice.

To everyone else, we have a solution. It's not the most ideal solution, but it's a step in the right direction after such a severe step in the wrong direction.
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


/jaw
/floor

Okay. I was wrong. They admitted fault, and are fixing it.
I LOVE BEING WRONG SOMETIMES.

Thanks for the good word Orynx, and pass my thanks along to the rest of the team as well. I'm a be shuttin up now.

(But I probs owe someone cookies, where do I send em?)
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.


Not good enough IMO. If mobs scale with ilvl AT ALL, then its BS because it goes against the whole spirit of WoW, of getting stronger due to your gearing and progression efforts.

I'm sad that the devs are taking a stand on a non-issue that only infuriates the playerbase.
Guys, I think they may have legit reverted it...

Edit: Eff Me, I was soo wrong :( I am so sorry :(
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:


I was hopeful those plans would include getting rid of this functionality entirely. I don't want mobs getting stronger unless that increase comes with better loot.

If you are dead set against axing the change, then get rid of the scaling beyond the ilvl of gear obtainable from this content. Trivial content SHOULD die quickly.
03/29/2017 01:59 PMPosted by Stabnslash
For the life of me I don't understand why they didn't just make mobs in the new area harder. Make them all elite, or whatever.

That way they get what they want and players still get to feel a sense of progression.

But no. Blizzard creating solutions to problems that don't exist.


Because one design goal of this x-pac was to keep the whole continent somewhat relevant so they added new reward to the old rep and also made the WQ for said rep more in line with our current power level. Before 7.2 they noticed there was no way the continent would work since we were outstripping everything (no !@#$, over 100 ilvl gain since we hit 110...) so they decided to make stuff scale. They messed up the scaling ratio but they admitted that part of the scaling is un-intended and that removing gears should never be a thing.
It's still relevant, because I still have to do it for AP and emissaries for legendary chances. The least it could do is not be a freaking slog.
03/29/2017 02:12 PMPosted by Draconious
Damage rollback but not health rollback.

Thank you very much.


"We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves." --Ornyx

Not trying to white-knight, but it seems that Ornyx also took health into consideration, in addition to enemy damage.

So far, people's prediction of "Creatures will not scale as much" in the hotfix notes, is verifying as true.
03/29/2017 02:12 PMPosted by Alayea
So we're stuck with item scale leveling, just like CRZ. What a shock.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWHyy_Zdksg

Watch that vid and tell me how many times the Disc priest dies to the 'uber mobs'.
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


No data is just that.

NO DATA.

Be empirical and let select, trustworthy, and objective playtesters be aware of this potential (POTENTIAL!) change and keep others in the dark and MAKE THE INTENT KNOWN during the PTR.

I'm sorry, this is either a cop-out excuse or it is a flat-out lie.
03/29/2017 02:12 PMPosted by Alayea
So we're stuck with item scale leveling, just like CRZ. What a shock.


It's clear that they weren't going to just scrap it. If it was so important they'd hide it being implemented, it was important enough to keep to some degree.
The fact of the scaling being a deceptive sneak in after they explicitly said they didn't want to scale the mobs in the overworld should be really the culprit here. If they simply brought attention to it, it wouldn't have been such a big bother.
Wonder how the reunion at Blizzard went when deciding this:

"yo! guys how do you think we can make our game more of a chore"

"How about making mobs scale with ilvl so players spend more time in repetitive quests they don't care about?"

"Excellent!"

In reaction to the volume of tiered loot from multiple sources that were making old, but expansion relevant content too easy. Someone with an ilvl of 900+ should not pull half the mobs in a World Quest and nuke them in one shot, denying a chance for fresh 110's to tag the same mobs.


Considering that since MoP mobs seem to have annoying 1 sec respawn timers I don't see how this is an issue. Heck, shared tagging was a gift this expac on the first place it's not like it was common before.
okay so WHY DID YOU NERF NETHERSHARDS? I'm not doing the syntex all day for 100 shards. hell no.
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


The changes are passable and basically a bandage on the wound.

This is a system that is still flirting with danger and it is still ridiculous that it was never brought to light.

And you still haven't addressed the issue of this drastically affecting healers more than anyone else. Tanks 2nd.
03/29/2017 01:59 PMPosted by Stabnslash
...

Because one design goal of this x-pac was to keep the whole continent somewhat relevant so they added new reward to the old rep and also made the WQ for said rep more in line with our current power level. Before 7.2 they noticed there was no way the continent would work since we were outstripping everything (no !@#$, over 100 ilvl gain since we hit 110...) so they decided to make stuff scale. They messed up the scaling ratio but they admitted that part of the scaling is un-intended and that removing gears should never be a thing.


But this doesn't make old content relevant. It just makes it more tedious than it already was and has been for the last 4 months.


It's not supposed to make it more tedious. Your DPS is still supposed to grow faster than their HP so you still kill faster and faster and faster as you get gear.

Well ok it does because it came in too late in the x-pac to really keep that feeling I guess but the core idea isn't to slow you down but to make you accelerate less.
When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine.


C'mon now, you haven't listened to player feedback for almost two years at this point. Don't try to shovel this back on the players that an undocumented change wasn't picked up a small fraction of the player base who didn't know to even look for it.
03/29/2017 02:05 PMPosted by Stabnslash
Unless you think they are supposed to never miss calculate something...


This has absolutely nothing to do with someone making a mistake then being unjustly or unfairly raked over the coals for it. This is about arrogance, hubris, lying to the player base, broken promises on the broken shore (cwutididthar?), bad game design and being utterly (perhaps irrevocably) out of touch with the player base.

I'm also getting really, really tired of the implication in Watcher's posts that somehow things that worked fine for the 7-8 years before he was here and players enjoyed are now somehow bad and qualify as "very real problems." You've already turned WOW into World of Diablo3craft, you ask for feedback and ignore it or flat out tell the community it's wrong now you break your own promises about the game. The only "very real problem" in WOW is you Watcher. It's time for you to step down.
I thought the whole point of getting better gear was to make content easier. Nothing beats the satisfaction of one-shoting a mob that completely owned me earlier in the expansion. With this change, getting gear is mostly pointless. Its now become just something to do and a way to kill time for the most part. Makes me wonder why I spent all that time grinding so much rep...
03/29/2017 02:09 PMPosted by Anidor
03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
Finally, there's the natural question of why we didn't patch-note this. It was not to be deceptive; we know it's impossible to hide a change from millions of players. But the system was meant to feel largely transparent and subtle, just like level-scaling does if you don't stop and really think about it, and so we did want players to first experience the change organically. Your feedback and reactions and first impressions of the system are more useful in this particular case when they are not skewed by the experience of logging in and actively trying to spot the differences. Thank you for that, and I look forward to continued discussion.

Why wasn't this tested in PTR? You know, the public TEST realm? This should never have been introduced into live without being tested there, for the devs knew this could've broken a lot more. Unequipping a piece of gear to get stronger is minor compared to what something like this could've done. It could've gotten messed up and the mobs all scaled to Mythic raid level and all the mobs in the game one shot most of the players.


Ornyx claims it was on PTR since January but I take it people weren't spending a whole ton of time in older content.

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