PSA: Creatures now scale with item level

General Discussion
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03/29/2017 02:18 PMPosted by Tewa
As I was reading all of this, I kept thinking:

Blizzard wanted X, so instead they implement X times 5, and players revolt, so Blizzard "gives them what they want" by scaling back the changes to just X, which is actually what Blizzard wanted all along.

And sure enough, here we are.

They keep doing this. And people keep falling for it.


Exactly my thought. Now we have a VERY dangerous and bug prone system in the game that no one has any real way of testing the functionality of.
03/29/2017 02:16 PMPosted by Valisyuko
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


Blizzard listened! This "feature" has been fixed! Very nice :) I am impressed that they handled it so quickly. I have to give them props. It wouldn't make much sense if the ONLY feedback we ever gave was negative!


You are getting conned man. This is stuff from "The Art of the Deal".

Example:
Landlord- Im raising rent $500!
You- That's BS, im leaving at the end of my lease!
Landlord- Look man you are right! I'll only raise it $200 to hook you up. I'm looking out for you.
You- Aww you are the best buddy! You listened!
So much for better communication. This stealth nerf is crap and the fix they're proposing is just as bad. Nothing like screwing up what sounded like a good patch by gating everything and making us weaker with better gear.
03/29/2017 02:15 PMPosted by Drako
Why would they? Would anyone think to themselves "ya know, I feel like I need to go to highmountain and see if mobs scale with my ilvl"

Laughed out loud
03/29/2017 02:00 PMPosted by Aetriel
For example, to complete one quest, I just ran through a whole pack of demons and kept running until they disengaged. Why don't they have traps or attacks to stop you?


Careful, they may disable ground-mounts behind rep-grinds if they read this. You're making their hard work irrelevant by bypassing the mobs they so want you to fight!! Your concept of making monsters more intelligent is just too much...can't adapt the game to players wanting to ride on ground mounts because they can just ride right past quests, straight up to the top of the tower saving the princess! Man, all this sounds familiar somehow...
Each patch is bringing WoW closer to the world of Diablo... IF I wanted to play Diablo I would not be playing Wow...
Sure is live blizzard, I remove a trinket and it feels so much better this system doesnt work
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


Who has time to PTR test anymore? We're being flooded with content.
Not good enough. Get rid of all health scaling. If power scaling is too high for world content address it next expansion. Slowing down our killing this expansion just makes some already-not-stellar grinding more tedious.
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


There were dozens of posts from people who saw this on PTR and hated it. You didn't want to listen.
03/29/2017 02:03 PMPosted by Supercell
03/29/2017 01:20 PMPosted by Drusyn
I don't like the change but I think some of you need to read Watchers first post.

He acknowledges that they said they weren't going to do it and explains why they decided to do it anyways.

He explains why they didn't put it in the patch notes.

He states they realize removing gear is a fault in the system and are looking into it.

Why do you guys ask for blue posts only to ignore the blue posts?


Because the blue post was condescending, arrogant, and smug.

Kind of like how when we received a blue post in response to the issues with Wowhead's malware and excessive/intrusive ads, the blue post responded with an implied threat of forum ban, because they accused us of "blackmail", when all we did is report the different types of problems, with detailed repositories of proof, evidence, and analyses, including code/data-mined analysis.

Likewise, Watcher admitted to being caught lying, and was proud of it, to the point of displaying significant smugness.

His reasoning behind "not putting it in patch notes" is more of a matter of lack of transparency, deception, and purposeful lack of communication in the first place.

And in his admission of getting caught trying to shuffle things behind our backs, and in his admission of his lies, he also presumed us to be idiots that wouldn't pick up on these tricks. He implicitly called us idiots, and proceeds to be smug and asinine about the response towards this backlash.


Exactly, I cannot. Believe they lied to us to begin with . Now it just makes it harder to believe anything else they say after this at all . I feel disappointed in knowing what they did was so shady it makes sense why they wont drop wowhead either i mean look at watchers response .

They dug a huge hole that they cannot get of and mend . They do not understand that this is hugeeeee . Maybe they should have listened to player feedback it is kinda why we have PTR forums and PTR.

I do not appriciate being someones test subject and racking up my repair bill when trying to save gold for a sub token ,so i gotta be careful about repairing my gear.

I hope they change this . I hope they SCRAP IT .Its terriable . I cant even understand how watcher would think for 1 min they couldnt hide it and get away with it . Like no blizzard do not turn into wowhead by lying and treating your paying customers like filth .

Idk if i can trust a dev Q&A again. It makes sense tho why they cherry pick questions so that way they can avoid topics but at what point is ignoring a vast majority that pays your paychecks a good idea ?

I have no idea what else to day other them im pissed.

Also wth is with the slow nethershard grind right now you reward them from doing pvp ,dungons ,raids, wq boxes ,etc. Esp if they are a currancy we need to buy the gear from the vendor 5k shards each peice is quite ridiclous if thats how the rate is going to be rn . Unless when invasions come and they gibe crap loads i can see people getying burnt out fast . Also speaking of invasions why are they only for Wqs ?!?!?!?! Why cant you just reput the pre patch before legion launch invasions ? If you wanted to increase sub numbers then you should have done that not this ivl scale hidden bs.

Shoot blizz idk whats going on with most parts of the game but hire me for frick sake at least id read forums and talk to the community instead of ignore them or lie to their faces .
SMH UNREAL
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests.
Dude I'm not trying to be rude, but honestly who has issues with this? The only times I've missed tags is because I am either AFK or because I'm still running to get to the spot where said mobs are, I AM to blame for both cases if I miss the tag NOT overgeared players and even if I miss them so what? Respawning times in Legion are fast so it doesn't matter at all. This change is pointless.
03/28/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Watcher

But I did want to lay out what we consider to be the very real problem we're trying to solve here. I also understand that to many folks it doesn't appear to be a real problem at all, and it seems like we're just trying to throw up pointless obstacles.


See THAT right there is an issue itself...


Another interpretation is that his feedback/information source consists of fanboys, employees, family and friends of employees and his parents. So the info gathered is not reflective of the actual customer base. Disinformation from his "posse" rather than getting the straight shoot from WoW sub/gametime owners.
A halfway measure is still annoying. This change is just not wanted. Scaling with item level should NOT be a feature of WoW.

03/29/2017 02:18 PMPosted by Sepset
But it goes to show that it worked. If no one noticed it on the PTR, which they would have, then clearly something bugged between the PTR and when it went on live.


People could have noticed in the PTR, just didn't care because it seemed like a PTR bug (they always happen) since it wasn't on the patch notes. It's not like people go to PTR to test old content anyway so how much comparison was really going on?.
As a tank, I really don't appreciate things taking longer to kill.
I've never made an "I quit" thread.

But from what in seeing here, I really an using a hard time logging in every day.

Every time I go to the computer and choose not to play is another reason for me to just cancel.

Stormblood is coming out soon.
And for everyone who thinks this is a good response, remember that this is a bait-and-switch. This entire debacle would have still existed even if they had only scaled health and not damage in the first place, which is what most people actually assumed when they started pointing out.

Do not fall for it.
03/29/2017 02:13 PMPosted by Renlorne
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.


Not good enough IMO. If mobs scale with ilvl AT ALL, then its BS because it goes against the whole spirit of WoW, of getting stronger due to your gearing and progression efforts.

I'm sad that the devs are taking a stand on a non-issue that only infuriates the playerbase.


Yup 100%, im sorry i love this game and all of yall awesome peeps, but im walking if this feature stays in anyway, just that simple.
03/29/2017 02:15 PMPosted by Brewpunch
When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine.


C'mon now, you haven't listened to player feedback for almost two years at this point. Don't try to shovel this back on the players that an undocumented change wasn't picked up a small fraction of the player base who didn't know to even look for it.


LOL, what a surprise...now it's somehow the players' fault for not reporting about something they were never told about? /facepalm
03/29/2017 02:16 PMPosted by Valisyuko
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


Blizzard listened! This "feature" has been fixed! Very nice :) I am impressed that they handled it so quickly. I have to give them props. It wouldn't make much sense if the ONLY feedback we ever gave was negative!


Blizzard also implemented this in the first place. They only cleaned up their own mess, because we made them.

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