PSA: Creatures now scale with item level

General Discussion
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03/29/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Aarreder
People generally stop posting in a tread when it gets a lack of blue response,


Bull!@#$. I present you this thread, the one that we were in. I also present the myriad of 'no-fly, no-buy' stupidity circa WoD.

03/29/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Aarreder
I have to say them saying there was no feedback is both a lie and insulting to those of us that did report this,


So miniscule the reporting that it didn't appear as blip on the radar of any influential YouTube or Twitterer to bend the ear of Blizzard.

Again, this is a minority overreacting to something so minor the difference is measured in fractions of time.
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


Developers from D3 taking over WoW with the Jay Wilson mentality, lol.
03/29/2017 03:55 PMPosted by Crotchboil
So when are we gonna get dungeon and raid ilvl scaling? Some of those normal and heroic bosses are getting killed in seconds and having their mechanics bypassed completely. Muh trivialized challenge

I am ready for my lead dev position at blizz, feel free to send me the relevant paperworks to fill out


Already happening. They bumped up the difficulty of Mythic dungeons with this patch to keep them more relevant with the iLevel increases.
03/29/2017 03:41 PMPosted by Thorgraam
I have seen little to no support for ilvl scaling from players. I would suggest scrapping the system. I don't enjoy putting hours into gearing my character only to have his relative power diminished against the same mobs. Make new areas with better rewards have tougher mobs. Trying to get extra mileage out of existing mobs and areas is not fun and feels like a development shortcut.


I see your point and at the same time I like the scaling. I see it as a better system for a larger group of players.

I think the attempt was to make something like the Broken Isle more balanced for a larger difference in gear levels and have everyone play side by side. If a 870 is instantly killing things while the 820 is dying, then it's not much of a game experience for anyone. I do think they may need to fix and balance things, but that is to be expected.
So wait a second, Ornyx. I specifically remember either you or Lore saying that you guys read all the threads on the PTR and Class Development forums. This was a part of your improved communication post. Are you now saying this is not the case?

EDIT: Oh, hey, I found the Wowhead post about it.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=260116/blizzard-posts-communication-improvements-class-feedback-feb-9th-hotfixes
03/29/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Damonios
03/29/2017 03:38 PMPosted by Silverbells
...

Devs, whenever you want to keep track whether your decision was good or bad, remember that trash like this are the ones defending your universally panned decision.


Poor baby... would you like me to help you out with those "super scary" mobs... again?


No but your xsmog needs some major help
03/28/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Watcher
Also to be clear, scrapping the entire system is certainly still an option.


Lets go ahead & get on that.
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.
this is a down right lie, feedback for it since feb 19th. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753319202?page=3#post-48
03/29/2017 03:52 PMPosted by Sevraine

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.

You should've stopped the post after the bullet points.....but you just HAD to add that last paragraph where you blame US for this fiasco.

Brilliant.


*nods* Especially in light of the thread on the PTR forum about it:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753319202


That post was originally one page long. Is that the only one concerning this? Where is the massive uproar there like it is here? Sounds like people forgot that the PTR was for testing and reporting in addition to playing upcoming content.
Here's an idea if you (Blizz) are so worried about us killing things too fast... Make "some" of the mobs level 111. At least that way there is nothing hidden and players know where they stand.
03/29/2017 03:50 PMPosted by Arria
Didn't bother me - i like the increase in difficulty. Makes you wonder what the 'Legion' is up to - why can't they advance as well as us? :)


Look I will give you the benefit since you just started M raiding and scorp is a joke.. but once you start getting to bosses like cake dude or higher and finding out that the gear it took you days of horrible wiping (mostly to dumb RNG) is now pretty much gonna make your farming of AP a LOT harder. or farming of paragon levels for a chance for mounts...

The thing here is an MMO is supose to be you gear up your character to be able to make it easier for you... Its supose to reward you not !@#$ing punish you

also your GM is weird having all the names of his toons start the same XD
03/29/2017 03:56 PMPosted by Nightmove
03/29/2017 03:41 PMPosted by Thorgraam
I have seen little to no support for ilvl scaling from players. I would suggest scrapping the system. I don't enjoy putting hours into gearing my character only to have his relative power diminished against the same mobs. Make new areas with better rewards have tougher mobs. Trying to get extra mileage out of existing mobs and areas is not fun and feels like a development shortcut.


I see your point and at the same time I like the scaling. I see it as a better system for a larger group of players.

I think the attempt was to make something like the Broken Isle more balanced for a larger difference in gear levels and have everyone play side by side. If a 870 is instantly killing things while the 820 is dying, then it's not much of a game experience for anyone. I do think they may need to fix and balance things, but that is to be expected.


Which is definitely what they were going for.
03/29/2017 03:54 PMPosted by Yorsted
03/29/2017 03:47 PMPosted by Endboss
...

I've never seen anyone complain about this. While I don't believe this is why you made this change, I'd love to see an example of a thread with even 5% of the number of people complaining about this in this thread. Tweets? You guys love those, surely you have a secret vault of tweets with people complaining about this. Let me re-iterate... I think you have completely different reasons for this change and are choosing a pretty sad scapegoat.

Also I think bringing up the PTR users as an excuse for not talking about this is pretty sad. Especially when like the 5th post in this thread is a PTR user saying they complained about this frequently.

...


Happens to me often, actually. I see the boss, start running over and he's downed before I can tag him.


So you wait a couple of minutes or so for it to respawn. What's the problem? It's understandably frustrating for something like Sha of Anger that doesn't have a fixed spawn location but that's a fairly rare occurrence in the game.
03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


Just went and gave the new changes a go.

In a word: Nope.

Still completely punitive and unnecessary changes for healers. In my quick examination I found creatures that have 500K, 600K, and even 800K more health than they used to. I'm sure there are some creatures that pack on even more pounds.

My DPS is below 300K. My primary attack spell is a 2.5 second cast. Mastery is one of my two key secondary stats and it does *zero* to improve my DPS.

You need a change that exempts healers from it. I also found it rather unbelievable that you failed to address healers at all in your reply. Just glossed right on past that.
03/29/2017 03:57 PMPosted by Lorrimar
03/28/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Watcher
Also to be clear, scrapping the entire system is certainly still an option.


Lets go ahead & get on that.


THIS

I'm done commenting here. I'm done giving you people feedback.
03/29/2017 03:52 PMPosted by Sevraine
...

*nods* Especially in light of the thread on the PTR forum about it:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753319202


That post was originally one page long. Is that the only one concerning this? Where is the massive uproar there like it is here? Sounds like people forgot that the PTR was for testing and reporting in addition to playing upcoming content.


They said the release schedule was accelerated on the PTR. Who in the hell would be doing old WQ on the PTR when there was a new area to go to?
03/29/2017 03:57 PMPosted by Imzadi

That post was originally one page long. Is that the only one concerning this? Where is the massive uproar there like it is here? Sounds like people forgot that the PTR was for testing and reporting in addition to playing upcoming content.


One page long is long enough. They want clear and concise feedback. It was there.

Also, it was an undocumented change that is tough to peg down when you're 1) testing other things, 2) primarily using target dummies and/or actual encounters to test.
Lol btw blizz just staight up put all the blame on us players for this. Years of ignoring constructive feedback on ptr and beta, gutted mop locks, blood dk, surv hunter and so many specs despite tons of concise, actionable feedback. Now they are saying they didnt get any feedback... Man you would think they learned after wod and flying...

Hey remember when they explained that they nerfed a niche pvp enchant, because it was causing "performance issues", but nothing is done to all the friggin mists and crap in legion dungeons and raids?
Interesting that once irrefutable proof that they lied is presented, suddenly the blue posts dry up.

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