PSA: Creatures now scale with item level

General Discussion
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ONLY certain classes could obliterate a pack of mobs plus a rare at the same time AKA bears, Paladins and DH

Cloth could not do it or even if they could it was either an exceptional geared player or exceptionally skilled one.
Your problem is class balance
1 vs 1 no class compares with a bear or the burst a DH outputs
You pruned classes til there's no way you can ballance them anymore
Of course a 900+ ilvl mythic plus player should obliterate world mobs but you got to a point where 2 players with same ilvl 850 for ex behave different in world content . Take a Spriest and pally for example. Or Mage vs DH or lock vs any of the 2 above ( pally or Druid )
You guys don't know how to tune your own game anymore.
Blizzard appears to be missing one major point of any game. You can continuously give higher gear, better rewards, and boost health/damage pools all you want. Eventually the content gets boring. You know what gets old really fast? When you go through a leveling process and a gearing process in hopes it makes it easier for you to go about your daily adventures and then you add any scaling in like this that makes it more difficult to kill them.

To put it simply. We already had to struggle to gear to be able to handle mobs, there is NO reason for why we should have to regear to defeat the same boring mobs all over again because they now hit like trucks.
03/28/2017 11:21 PMPosted by Sevaira
03/28/2017 11:11 PMPosted by Supercell
The thread was made about current content, not old or legacy content from previous expansions.


I am talking about current content. WQ are and will continue to be our daily grind in legion. Many quests that require you to kill mobs will be dying faster and faster to the point that all it will encourage is instant attacks or simply put many mobs will die long before other players have a chance to tag it. The only other solution is to increase spawn timers but that has brought other problems to the game on its own.


That's why there is an option to group up, that way more people can get credit when in group. People no longer want extra tedium in a daily grind.
03/28/2017 11:22 PMPosted by Virus
03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
Your feedback and reactions and first impressions of the system are more useful in this particular case when they are not skewed by the experience of logging in and actively trying to spot the differences.


To me that just translates to "Yeah we kept this change a secret because we wanted to see how badly it felt when you didnt know it was coming as opposed to having time to give feedback and get all worked up over it"

Customers don't like being treated like that >.<


I think they know themselves how stupid of a change it is but put it in to force people to be logged in longer. They hid it from the patch notes so we would be blind sided by it.
03/28/2017 11:27 PMPosted by Nazthori
LOL way to make progression feel null and void. Undo this stupid @!#$ing change please, thanks.


You realize their just borrowing another idea from Guild Wars 2 right?

You'll still be able to blaze through 'old' 7.X content, just not as if you were clearing Molten Core in your 900+ ilvl gear.

Stop losing your marbles and calm down. Damn.
03/28/2017 11:10 PMPosted by Weetzie
So now we have to consult ilvl spreadsheets to figure out which pieces of gear we need to unequip to make our daily chores as painless as possible.

Fun.

To be clear, it's unacceptable to us for the "right" thing in any form to ever be equipping weaker gear, unequipping items, or doing things that in any way lower your "absolute" power. There are a couple of loopholes where that is true currently, and they'll be high-priority fixes for us in the next day or two.

Also to be clear, scrapping the entire system is certainly still an option. My post was not meant to be a "too bad, get used to it" proclamation.

But I did want to lay out what we consider to be the very real problem we're trying to solve here. I also understand that to many folks it doesn't appear to be a real problem at all, and it seems like we're just trying to throw up pointless obstacles.

Power always feels good. It feels better to kill something in 5 seconds than in 10, especially when you remember when it took 10. Even better when you can do it in 2. Better still when you can kill 4 or 5 things in that time. But is there a point where that goes too far? We think so, and we're just looking to ease up off the gas pedal a little bit. We don't want to halt the power curve, and certainly never to go in reverse, but rather to take a bit longer on our road to an endgame world where everyone effectively walks around death-touching mobs for quest credit.
03/28/2017 11:04 PMPosted by Sahmael
03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
. Your feedback and reactions and first impressions of the system are more useful in this particular case when they are not skewed by the experience of logging in and actively trying to spot the differences


No. They are not.

The only singular use of our feedback is to make use and counter-argue it, saying excuses and why you guys are going against player's feedback every single time, just to after, in some safe vlog or environment, you can argue that Blizzard listens to feedback.

This forum is a huge PR stunt. Nothing more.


it hasnt even been a day since this chance and you/ hundred people deem it the tipping point.
It's quicker for me to kill things on my 870 alt than it is on my 900 main (both of whom are tanks). Scaling is messed up. Mob health is scaling too quickly relative to the amount of damage that I gain from higher ilvls. (at least for tanks)
03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
By the end of Mists of Pandaria, for example, the mantid of Dread Wastes that had once been reasonable foes were completely trivial. They'd basically evaporate if a raid-geared player looked in their general direction.


I don't think this is a problem.
More to the point, this is what I believe should be happening as my character grows stronger and stronger. It's kinda one of the major points of pursuing more powerful gear in the first place, for me. To be more powerful, in comparison, to other things/creatures/players.

I don't like the idea of everything else around me getting stronger as I do.
I want them to stay as they are and eventually become trivial to me. I then seek out different and new non trivial foes with the future goal of eventually seeing them become trivial to me as well. This string of experiences is majorly why I continue to chase gear in the first place.

03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
If you get a great set of item upgrades that make you 5% stronger, maybe the world gets 1-2% tougher.


I simply don't like this idea of the entirety of overworld increasing in power the same way my character does. I would prefer some other solution to this "problem" be sought.

03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
But the system was meant to feel largely transparent and subtle, just like level-scaling does if you don't stop and really think about it, and so we did want players to first experience the change organically.


Not a designer myself so I may not fully understand this point but... if this were PTR I could agree. Players not scrutinizing the scaling or focused on playing a few rounds of "before and after" could be helpful for testing.
But this is the live game. This is not the appropriate place for experimentation of this scale, in my opinion. It is very off putting.
If it's a non insignificant change going into the live game I, and others I am sure, would much appreciate it be document along side other such changes.

Overworld content scaling based on character ilvl is definitely a significant change, no matter how "transparent" this change was it unquestionably called for some documentation going into the live game.
03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
Apologies for the delay in getting information out on this - our initial focus was on putting out other patch-day fires.

Yes, this reflects a deliberate change, but it's also not working exactly as we intended. The scaling may be too steep, and the fact that unequipping a piece of gear can ever be helpful is a bug in the system. We'll be looking into making changes to correct this in the very near future.

Power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame, and the last thing we want is to undermine that. We stressed the importance of that progression when discussing how the level-scaling system worked in Legion around the time of the expansion's launch, and explained why we then had no plans to scale foes' power based on gear. But as we've watched Legion unfold, we've come to observe some side-effects of our endgame content plan and the associated rewards structure that made us reconsider.

We've never had the initial outdoor world content stay relevant for this long in an expansion before. By the end of Mists of Pandaria, for example, the mantid of Dread Wastes that had once been reasonable foes were completely trivial. They'd basically evaporate if a raid-geared player looked in their general direction. But there wasn't much reason besides achievements or completionism to revisit the Klaxxi dailies once Isle of Thunder was out or, later on, Timeless Isle. And the enemies in those later zones could be tuned to a proportionally more challenging baseline difficulty.

But in Legion, while the new content in Broken Shore is the focus of 7.2, and we've made sure that the core outdoor rewards (both dropped and from Nethershards) are superior to the rep-related rewards from the original factions, the intent is not for the Broken Shore to completely replace the rest of the game. You'll still go back to the other Broken Isles zones for emissaries, Legion Assaults (coming next week!), Order campaign quests, improved world quest rewards, and more. And as 7.1 and 7.1.5 progressed, we could see that even with Nighthold gear the pacing of combat was getting a bit silly - what would happen once new content made that level of gear more common, and once the Tomb raid pushed limits even higher?

To reiterate, power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame. We absolutely want you to feel overpowered as you return to steamroll content that once was challenging. But there's a threshold beyond which the game's core mechanics start to break down. When someone trying to wind up a 2.5sec cast can't get a nuke off against a quest target before another player charges in and one-shots it, that feels broken. And even for the Mythic-geared bringer of death and destruction, when everything dies nearly instantly, you spend more time looting corpses than you do making them. You spend an order of magnitude longer traveling to a quest location than you do killing the quest target. You stop using your core class abilities and instead focus on spamming instants to tap mobs as quickly as possible before they die.

Our goal is basically to safeguard against that degenerate extreme. We tune outdoor combat for a fresh 110 around a 12-15sec duration against a standard non-elite, non-boss enemy. It's great for gear, over the course of an expansion to cut that time in half, or even by two-thirds. But once you get down to a duration of one or two global cooldowns, the game just wasn't built to support that as the norm. (Note that this is an current-content endgame concern; running legacy content for completion/transmog/etc. purposes is a totally different story.)

The intent of our change in 7.2 was to smooth out that progression curve a bit, not flatten it out, and certainly never to invert it. If you get a great set of item upgrades that make you 5% stronger, maybe the world gets 1-2% tougher. Perhaps instead of getting 400% stronger over the course of the expansion relative to the outdoor world, you only get 250% stronger. But you should always be getting more powerful in relative terms, and upgrades should always matter. From some reactions so far, it sounds like we may be off on that tuning. And as noted above, the fact that unequipping items can ever be helpful is a bug that we'll be investigating and fixing.

Finally, there's the natural question of why we didn't patch-note this. It was not to be deceptive; we know it's impossible to hide a change from millions of players. But the system was meant to feel largely transparent and subtle, just like level-scaling does if you don't stop and really think about it, and so we did want players to first experience the change organically. Your feedback and reactions and first impressions of the system are more useful in this particular case when they are not skewed by the experience of logging in and actively trying to spot the differences. Thank you for that, and I look forward to continued discussion.


If you want world enemies to stay relevant longer, the way to do that are less giant jumps in stats of gear, food buffs, and elixirs, not ilvl scaling. If you don't shower people with huge increases like you are, it still allows you to eventually outgear the content but keeps it from becoming completely irrelevant in the same tier it's released. Enemy ilvl scaling of any type just punishes healers and non-DK/bear druid tanks.

Either way, your apology will only be accepted when you fix it and stop lying and trying to hide things from the players. A good way to have handled this would have been to have talked about it before the patch, going into detail about how you changed your mind and why you thought it was a good idea.
03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
Yes, this reflects a deliberate change
Glad I wasn't holding my breath while hoping this would be announced as a bug.

I haven't caught up on any of the replies to this post yet, but I'm trusting that there's plenty of constructive feedback telling you how awful this is -- not just for people of a certain ilvl, or of a certain class/spec, but for everyone who plays this MMORPG (not ARPG) genre game -- because I'm certainly not feeling anything I have to say on the matter would be terribly constructive at the moment.
I like outgearing content. I enjoy one-shotting mobs that nearly killed me when I began questing in the broken isles, it's viscerally satisfying.

If I want a challenge I'll join a raid, or a dungeon. If not? I'll do a more relaxing activity--maybe knock back some world quests, pick flowers, go fishing. I don't enjoy a constant adrenaline fueled battle for survival at all times. Again--that is what raids are for.

I don't care if you think you can fix the level scaling to feel fun. You couldn't fix legendaries, you couldn't fix class balance, you couldn't fix pvp.

What you think you can do means very little to me.

Remove it now.
If scrapping is an option like you said....

Do it now.
03/28/2017 11:27 PMPosted by Edielice
Legion Developer Q&A from September 2016

Q: Do World Quests scale with item level, or will they just become trivially easier for greater rewards?

A: Once you're max level, the world isn't scaling with your gear. There would be problems if we tried to do that - what do you do with a fresh 110 and a raid-geared 110 fighting the same mob in the same place? We could some kind of scaling I guess, like leveling, to normalize it? But I think that would go too far in undermining the core sense of power progression that is part of an MMO. The stuff that was challenging for you in Suramar, that was challenging when you first hit 110 in greens...when you come back in Mythic dungeon gear, you should crush them a bit. The intent is that the content is is something you outgear, outpower eventually.
That said, that's why we add new content.

Soo...you just flat out lied right? You do KNOW what lying is right? Because I don't think you do.


They want you to crush them a bit. They don't want you to one shot every mob. The blue response has already said that it was too steep and they are going to lower it.


Their claim to fix this is about as baseless and as much of a lie as Wowhead admins claiming to fix the malware/system-crashing adware problem: it won't get done, or if it does, it's weak, or their "solution" causes new problems.
03/28/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Watcher
We think so, and we're just looking to ease up off the gas pedal a little bit. We don't want to halt the power curve


That's exactly how you fix your perceived problem, though. Ease up on how quickly we gain power from new content and you don't have to worry about us going from killing something in five seconds to killing it in one melee swing.

We're not asking for you to stop making us more powerful, and there are many players who feel the power creep is out of control. Rein in the power creep and you ease up on the gas at the same time.
03/28/2017 11:29 PMPosted by Ferendirrog
To put it simply. We already had to struggle to gear to be able to handle mobs, there is NO reason for why we should have to regear to defeat the same boring mobs all over again because they now hit like trucks


you do know BOA is the fix right.....you dont like it now ??? dont rerole use boa when its out and go 1 shot stuff mindlessly k .....k
03/28/2017 11:27 PMPosted by Edielice
Legion Developer Q&A from September 2016

Q: Do World Quests scale with item level, or will they just become trivially easier for greater rewards?

A: Once you're max level, the world isn't scaling with your gear. There would be problems if we tried to do that - what do you do with a fresh 110 and a raid-geared 110 fighting the same mob in the same place? We could some kind of scaling I guess, like leveling, to normalize it? But I think that would go too far in undermining the core sense of power progression that is part of an MMO. The stuff that was challenging for you in Suramar, that was challenging when you first hit 110 in greens...when you come back in Mythic dungeon gear, you should crush them a bit. The intent is that the content is is something you outgear, outpower eventually.
That said, that's why we add new content.

Soo...you just flat out lied right? You do KNOW what lying is right? Because I don't think you do.


They want you to crush them a bit. They don't want you to one shot every mob. The blue response has already said that it was too steep and they are going to lower it.


who oneshots mobs right now? I certainly dont. My Dk certainly doesnt.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/bleeding-hollow/Zainoqt/advanced

its a solution to a nonexistant problem
Just so glad that this "intentional" change got the crap QA'd out of it so it would be "organic" and "seamless" to the point where most people would not notice - oh, wait, now that didn't happen, did it?

And leaving it out of the patch notes? That was also INTENTIONAL to see how we'd react? And because it got borked and wasn't tested properly, you created a storm of feces that blew all over the forums, reddit, etc.?

Unbelievable, simply unbelieveable. And now we know that whatever was infecting the WH didn't just spread over to the Hill, but it jumped all the way to the west coast, too. Obvious pandemic is obvious.

Integrity is dead and buried. Truth is irrelevant. It's all about the spin both in RL and in this game, now, too.

Just so, so disappointing.
03/28/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Watcher
Better still when you can kill 4 or 5 things in that time. But is there a point where that goes too far? We think so, and we're just looking to ease up off the gas pedal a little bit.


It doesn't matter what you think.

No one likes this change. Get rid of it.

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