PSA: Creatures now scale with item level

General Discussion
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03/29/2017 05:48 AMPosted by Nonsanctae
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In other words, the content isn't rewarding enough and because of this the least the devs could do is allow players to trivialize the content so they can go do more rewarding content afterwards. If that is the case, what prevents players from doing the rewarding content and ignoring/reducing time spent on less meaningful content? would increasing the rewards on trivial content be a good justification for engaging in the content or would it just feel like something that would stunt your progress significantly should you not engage in the content?


It already stunts our progression if we don't do them. WQ are already too large a chunk of AP. We are forced to do them to keep up, since there is no cap on what you can gain a week its in your best interest if you want to grow in power to do all AP content. The issue lies in the other rewards, gear that is useless minuscule amounts of gold or mats, resources that are useless.

Early on in the expansion WQ took time and that was OK, as we geared up they died faster, that was OK. Slowing content down does not make it relevant or fun. They want to keep the WQ relevant but once you pass a certain threshold they are no longer rewarding, just content you have to do if you want to increase your artifact at a decent rate.


So, would increasing the AP from other sources be a better solution then? That way it would be more efficient to spend time doing those rather than doing WQ. Would you still feel compelled to do all WQ if this were to be the case? Would reducing AP gained from WQ accomplish a similar result?
I know for at least the month of April, I will be foregoing my sub. Until some more of the content that was talked about is released, I have completed the portions that were released today, and or some changes I believe should be made to ilvl scaling / bugs etc.

With AP being an endless treadmill and without an "end" in sight, it took a lot of the excitement away, at least for me. With no end in sight, a casual raider like myself does not enjoy getting AP as an item drop - it is now just a drop in the bucket rather than being something useful in the immediate future that makes meaningful impact.

And now with gear (outside of raiding) not meaning much, the world is now a treadmill and drop in the bucket as well.

It has left the game feeling empty. Everything will remain the same regardless if I put effort in.

Another point of contention is that in comparison to other games like SWTOR, I feel like it has become a series of monthly episodes to play through, rather than an expansion. And this is the exact reason I quit SWTOR (being strung along for content and subscription dollars rather than being able to work through what I wanted at my own pace).

I love the story and lore of wow, but some fundamentals should be changed around to make game play matter.

As far as story, at least the portion that I played through on my shaman alt (the part in stormheim), to me it felt a bit abrupt...the ending. I dont even know if I reached the ending or not ? Something flew off, without a clear resolution, in my opinion. But anyway...

-Le Moo...le sigh

Moohoo...sob.
Man. Good thing I decided to give up high level stuff.

This is just... terrible. Even more so for people who can't raid on a consistent basis, and play most of their game in the world, rather than instances.

Gotta love being punished for progressing your character.
I feel like gearing up now count even less, guess ill stop collecting gear and just go kill mobs naked...

Considering i don't raid anymore as much as i did in the past, and i just play in outside world, this is going to be terrible.

I wish blizzard had spent time better on making something else rather than this "feature", i hate MMO's who did this.
03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
We've never had the initial outdoor world content stay relevant for this long in an expansion before. By the end of Mists of Pandaria, for example, the mantid of Dread Wastes that had once been reasonable foes were completely trivial. They'd basically evaporate if a raid-geared player looked in their general direction. But there wasn't much reason besides achievements or completionism to revisit the Klaxxi dailies once Isle of Thunder was out or, later on, Timeless Isle. And the enemies in those later zones could be tuned to a proportionally more challenging baseline difficulty.

But in Legion, while the new content in Broken Shore is the focus of 7.2, and we've made sure that the core outdoor rewards (both dropped and from Nethershards) are superior to the rep-related rewards from the original factions, the intent is not for the Broken Shore to completely replace the rest of the game. You'll still go back to the other Broken Isles zones for emissaries, Legion Assaults (coming next week!), Order campaign quests, improved world quest rewards, and more. And as 7.1 and 7.1.5 progressed, we could see that even with Nighthold gear the pacing of combat was getting a bit silly - what would happen once new content made that level of gear more common, and once the Tomb raid pushed limits even higher?


Thanks for the response, Watcher.

What you're describing is the very essence of character power progression. You seem to want to have it both ways. You want the new zones of the Broken Shore to be commensurate in difficulty with the new gear, yet not have older Legion zones be easier. But that's the way the game has been since it's inception. You can't lament that the older zones will now take less time to complete.

03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
To reiterate, power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame. We absolutely want you to feel overpowered as you return to steamroll content that once was challenging. But there's a threshold beyond which the game's core mechanics start to break down. When someone trying to wind up a 2.5sec cast can't get a nuke off against a quest target before another player charges in and one-shots it, that feels broken.


This is not a significant enough problem to justify tampering with the core mechanic of character progression. Matter of fact, it's an everyday occurrence for many classes that don't have instant abilities. Granted, it's not an ideal situation but you shouldn't be sacrificing the concept of player progression over something that's never been a big issue in player interactions while questing.

Our goal is basically to safeguard against that degenerate extreme. We tune outdoor combat for a fresh 110 around a 12-15sec duration against a standard non-elite, non-boss enemy. It's great for gear, over the course of an expansion to cut that time in half, or even by two-thirds.


This is the crux of the actual issue: content consumption. You want to keep combat, even for well-geared characters, to a certain threshold. This has been some sort of a focal point for all recent design decisions in the game and honestly, it is hurting the player's enjoyment. Yes, there should be an initial threshold but once a character is well-geared, they should cut down mobs quicker. If you go this route with fixed times of combat, no matter the ilevel of gear, there is no character progression. Again, you're trying to have both things at once, and you can't. You're making this an issue when it never was an issue before. This is exactly the same attitude we saw with flying in Warlords and it's going to lead to the same result, a disaffected player base that feels you're only focused on providing time intensive game play rather than enjoyable and rewarding game play.

But the system was meant to feel largely transparent and subtle, just like level-scaling does if you don't stop and really think about it, and so we did want players to first experience the change organically. Your feedback and reactions and first impressions of the system are more useful in this particular case when they are not skewed by the experience of logging in and actively trying to spot the differences.


A game design change of this nature should not be sprung on the players unannounced. This is the core of the game we're talking about here. It should have been play-tested on the PTR. The fact that it wasn't and its flaws (removing a piece of gear makes combat easier) so readily apparent, just reinforces that point.
God, all I'm seeing is a bunch of babies crying because mobs got tough again. If most of you played in Vanilla where stuff actually was hard, leveling to 60 wasn't done overnight (now in the course of a few hours). Alterac Valley took days to completed you couldn't steamroll it in under 6 minutes. Either way Blizzard bit themselves in the butt with this one. They want you to play the game, but put out so many "Daily" activities that people complained, so Blizzard kept making the game easier, now it's so easy that you folks are complaining because you actually have to take some time to play your character when they tried making it hard again. Don't like it? Don't play, its YOUR money to spend on whatever you want, if this is so aggravating to you, stop paying your hard earned money. Blizzard is just trying to do whats right to get the game back to how it was ORIGINALLY intended to be.
03/29/2017 05:55 AMPosted by Òblivion
No.. YOU don't understand why this is one of the biggest !@#$-ups WoW has done.


Nope sorry, it is a good thing for people who like alts, who enjoy doing world content and want to feel like they are getting stronger, at a steady pace instead of just going around one shotting at a certain item level point.
03/29/2017 05:51 AMPosted by Highstone
Definitely loving the fact that WQs don't even reward gear commiserate with the now scaled level of the world mobs.

GG, no RE.


Lol this is the best point that I didn't even think of. I'm fighting 900 ilevel mobs...for 865 gear.
Just giving my feedback, but personally I am really glad. I was questing yesterday after the patch came out and mobs felt a bit harder. I am totally cool with this! I had just killed two mobs and was at about half health.. when a pack of imps spawned.. I had to use my defensive abilities and be engaged in playing the game or I would die. That's fantastic!!

However reading this thread.. I appear to be in the minority, which is totally fine. Though I often see people on this form complain about content being too easy and wanting Vanilla style WoW back.. but as soon as the challenge goes up the smallest amount... they are freaking out?
03/29/2017 05:53 AMPosted by Ràger
Literally not one person is going to go into these world quests thinking "DAMN! SURE AM GLAD THESE MOBS SCALES WITH ILVL! JUST MAKES ME MORE MOTIVATED TO DO THESE WORLD QUESTS TO GET STRONGER SO THESE MOBS CSN SCALE EVEN MORE!!!"

This is practically the worst argument I've seen on a forum and I've seen a topic wanting to bring back an apartheid state back on here.


Yet again, this is stupid of you to think like this.

The system needs to be tweaked, but the goal is that we will still become stronger, but it won't be as fast, or as drastic as it was before. Going around 1 shotting mobs. You might have to do a rotation or something. It would still mean you are strong enough to take them, and with weaker item level people could do it also be it takes longer.

Look, Blizzard should not listen to some of this feedback. People saying progression does not matter, and threats. Just ignore them. However, one thing I can agree with people is that it needs to be tweaked some.

However you clearly don't understand how the system works. Getting better gear will still make your feel stronger. Nothing has changed but the speed pace you get that power at.


No it doesn't need to be tweaked. People get stronger as an xpac goes on which allows us to not only face new raids as they come out but also easily beat older stuff that was around in the last patch.

Your crazy argument that ilvl scaling somehow makes us more motivated is stupid because there is literally no reward scaling that it corresponds to. The major thing is that OLDER content that people were starting to have an easy time with is suddenly hard again and now you have newer content that will get stronger as you get stronger.

One of the beauties on an MMO is that as you get stronger, you can kill stuff easier. But for some reason, you think that the enemies scaling with us will help make us more motivated to get stronger.

Hint: It doesn't. Most people want to do outside quests ASAP. If you feel differently, well hell then go quest in greys. The rest of us think this implementation sucks.
Wouldn't creatures get more powerful too like characters do?
Shouldn't the rewards scale as well then?

Why am I getting 865 gear from WQ's where I need to kill mobs that have scaled beyond that iLevel?
this is just stupid. scaling was already something i didn't like while i was leveling. as it felt like i was actually getting weaker each time i leveled up. and now, what, mobs are getting stronger each time i get new gear? f that....
03/29/2017 05:57 AMPosted by Ràger
03/29/2017 05:55 AMPosted by Òblivion
No.. YOU don't understand why this is one of the biggest !@#$-ups WoW has done.


Nope sorry, it is a good thing for people who like alts, who enjoy doing world content and want to feel like they are getting stronger, at a steady pace instead of just going around one shotting at a certain item level point.


This is THE most alt-unfriendly expansion ever. Are you just retarded at this point? You know what.. no.. no. I'm done engaging you. You're a pathetic man-child lapping up the slobber that the WoW devs dribble to you out of their orifices.
Here's what needs to happen. Keep the item level scaling for low item level toons. This is great for fresh 110's, it's not quite so hard on them starting out like before. It used to be hell on fresh 110's if you tried to start say Suramar without getting gear first.

Stop the scaling so that the mobs "cap" at the strength they were before the patch. This lets you outgear them like you did before.
I feel like gearing up now count even less, guess ill stop collecting gear and just go kill mobs naked...

Considering i spend most of my play time outside of raids and dungeons, it's a terrible idea.

I wish blizzard had spent time better on making something else rather than this "feature", i hate MMO's who did this.
03/29/2017 05:57 AMPosted by Ràger
03/29/2017 05:55 AMPosted by Òblivion
No.. YOU don't understand why this is one of the biggest !@#$-ups WoW has done.


Nope sorry, it is a good thing for people who like alts, who enjoy doing world content and want to feel like they are getting stronger, at a steady pace instead of just going around one shotting at a certain item level point.


It takes just as long to kill the same monster at 850 as 900, actually at 900 it's slower atm. What is the point of gearing beyonf 850 ilvl then?
I like it also...it feels more like a game than Diablo.
03/29/2017 05:57 AMPosted by Arhkm
God, all I'm seeing is a bunch of babies crying because mobs got tough again. If most of you played in Vanilla where stuff actually was hard, leveling to 60 wasn't done overnight (now in the course of a few hours). Alterac Valley took days to completed you couldn't steamroll it in under 6 minutes. Either way Blizzard bit themselves in the butt with this one. They want you to play the game, but put out so many "Daily" activities that people complained, so Blizzard kept making the game easier, now it's so easy that you folks are complaining because you actually have to take some time to play your character when they tried making it hard again. Don't like it? Don't play, its YOUR money to spend on whatever you want, if this is so aggravating to you, stop paying your hard earned money. Blizzard is just trying to do whats right to get the game back to how it was ORIGINALLY intended to be.


Your argument would hold water if in Vanilla the mobs in Burning Steppes and Silthus scaled all the way up to Tier 3 depending on what you had equipped.
03/28/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Watcher
But I did want to lay out what we consider to be the very real problem we're trying to solve here. I also understand that to many folks it doesn't appear to be a real problem at all, and it seems like we're just trying to throw up pointless obstacles.


This is just another lame attempt to slow content consumption.

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