PSA: Creatures now scale with item level #2

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The original thread keeps getting error 500.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753795863?page=397

Last page was 397
Replies: 7920
LikesOP: 1,249
DislikesOP: 32

03/28/2017 05:14 PMPosted by Jegethy
What the hell.

I discovered this while creating an undocumented changes thread on reddit. Me, and 3 other people with vastly different item levels all see different health values for normal creatures, rares and elites.

This is the one thing that Blizzard said they wouldn't do. This removes all sense of power progression in the open world.

You can confirm this yourself - Target a mob at 110 and remove a piece of gear. Its health will immediately drop.

I've linked to this thread in a Tweet to Blizzard, so hopefully we can get some information on this.


03/28/2017 10:48 PMPosted by Watcher
Apologies for the delay in getting information out on this - our initial focus was on putting out other patch-day fires.

Yes, this reflects a deliberate change, but it's also not working exactly as we intended. The scaling may be too steep, and the fact that unequipping a piece of gear can ever be helpful is a bug in the system. We'll be looking into making changes to correct this in the very near future.

Power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame, and the last thing we want is to undermine that. We stressed the importance of that progression when discussing how the level-scaling system worked in Legion around the time of the expansion's launch, and explained why we then had no plans to scale foes' power based on gear. But as we've watched Legion unfold, we've come to observe some side-effects of our endgame content plan and the associated rewards structure that made us reconsider.

We've never had the initial outdoor world content stay relevant for this long in an expansion before. By the end of Mists of Pandaria, for example, the mantid of Dread Wastes that had once been reasonable foes were completely trivial. They'd basically evaporate if a raid-geared player looked in their general direction. But there wasn't much reason besides achievements or completionism to revisit the Klaxxi dailies once Isle of Thunder was out or, later on, Timeless Isle. And the enemies in those later zones could be tuned to a proportionally more challenging baseline difficulty.

But in Legion, while the new content in Broken Shore is the focus of 7.2, and we've made sure that the core outdoor rewards (both dropped and from Nethershards) are superior to the rep-related rewards from the original factions, the intent is not for the Broken Shore to completely replace the rest of the game. You'll still go back to the other Broken Isles zones for emissaries, Legion Assaults (coming next week!), Order campaign quests, improved world quest rewards, and more. And as 7.1 and 7.1.5 progressed, we could see that even with Nighthold gear the pacing of combat was getting a bit silly - what would happen once new content made that level of gear more common, and once the Tomb raid pushed limits even higher?

To reiterate, power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame. We absolutely want you to feel overpowered as you return to steamroll content that once was challenging. But there's a threshold beyond which the game's core mechanics start to break down. When someone trying to wind up a 2.5sec cast can't get a nuke off against a quest target before another player charges in and one-shots it, that feels broken. And even for the Mythic-geared bringer of death and destruction, when everything dies nearly instantly, you spend more time looting corpses than you do making them. You spend an order of magnitude longer traveling to a quest location than you do killing the quest target. You stop using your core class abilities and instead focus on spamming instants to tap mobs as quickly as possible before they die.

Our goal is basically to safeguard against that degenerate extreme. We tune outdoor combat for a fresh 110 around a 12-15sec duration against a standard non-elite, non-boss enemy. It's great for gear, over the course of an expansion to cut that time in half, or even by two-thirds. But once you get down to a duration of one or two global cooldowns, the game just wasn't built to support that as the norm. (Note that this is an current-content endgame concern; running legacy content for completion/transmog/etc. purposes is a totally different story.)

The intent of our change in 7.2 was to smooth out that progression curve a bit, not flatten it out, and certainly never to invert it. If you get a great set of item upgrades that make you 5% stronger, maybe the world gets 1-2% tougher. Perhaps instead of getting 400% stronger over the course of the expansion relative to the outdoor world, you only get 250% stronger. But you should always be getting more powerful in relative terms, and upgrades should always matter. From some reactions so far, it sounds like we may be off on that tuning. And as noted above, the fact that unequipping items can ever be helpful is a bug that we'll be investigating and fixing.

Finally, there's the natural question of why we didn't patch-note this. It was not to be deceptive; we know it's impossible to hide a change from millions of players. But the system was meant to feel largely transparent and subtle, just like level-scaling does if you don't stop and really think about it, and so we did want players to first experience the change organically. Your feedback and reactions and first impressions of the system are more useful in this particular case when they are not skewed by the experience of logging in and actively trying to spot the differences. Thank you for that, and I look forward to continued discussion.


03/28/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Watcher
03/28/2017 11:10 PMPosted by Weetzie
So now we have to consult ilvl spreadsheets to figure out which pieces of gear we need to unequip to make our daily chores as painless as possible.

Fun.

To be clear, it's unacceptable to us for the "right" thing in any form to ever be equipping weaker gear, unequipping items, or doing things that in any way lower your "absolute" power. There are a couple of loopholes where that is true currently, and they'll be high-priority fixes for us in the next day or two.

Also to be clear, scrapping the entire system is certainly still an option. My post was not meant to be a "too bad, get used to it" proclamation.

But I did want to lay out what we consider to be the very real problem we're trying to solve here. I also understand that to many folks it doesn't appear to be a real problem at all, and it seems like we're just trying to throw up pointless obstacles.

Power always feels good. It feels better to kill something in 5 seconds than in 10, especially when you remember when it took 10. Even better when you can do it in 2. Better still when you can kill 4 or 5 things in that time. But is there a point where that goes too far? We think so, and we're just looking to ease up off the gas pedal a little bit. We don't want to halt the power curve, and certainly never to go in reverse, but rather to take a bit longer on our road to an endgame world where everyone effectively walks around death-touching mobs for quest credit.


03/29/2017 02:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Thanks for the feedback on this issue. It’s clear that we need to make some changes here, so here are our current plans:

  • We’re removing the increase to damage dealt by creatures in the world. Our overall goal with this change is to keep the amount of time it takes to kill a creature from getting ridiculously short, and increasing the damage they deal is unnecessary for that goal. Instead, this was making you feel like they were becoming more dangerous, which was not our intent.
  • We’re significantly reducing the rate at which creature health scales with your item level. Again, all we’re trying to do here is prevent cases where monsters die too quickly for players to react to their presence, particularly around World Quests. Our initial tuning was far more aggressive than it needed to be, which could make it feel like your upgrades weren't actually helping. This change will make it very clear that you are still becoming noticeably stronger than your enemies as your gear improves.
  • Those two changes are already live, and you should be seeing them in-game now.
  • Later today, we’ll be correcting a separate issue that’s causing unequipping an item to drastically alter the power of enemies you’re facing. The above changes make it so that’s never the right thing to do anyway, but this is still a strange/buggy interaction that needs to be fixed.

It should also be noted that this change was on the Patch 7.2 PTR (and has been since January). We didn’t communicate anything about it initially because we wanted to get testers’ raw and honest feedback about it when they encountered it themselves, rather than attempting to pre-empt or otherwise influence their opinions ahead of time. When that feedback never came, we assumed that meant it was an acceptable change – i.e., those who hadn’t noticed it weren’t bothered by it, and those who had noticed it thought it was fine. Clearly that was a false assumption, and we should have drawn attention to it later in the PTR cycle, so that we could have caught these issues before Patch 7.2 went live.


This is the video where Ion Hazzikostas says it would pretty much be a bad idea to use Ilvl scaling on mobs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owT6Kj_bnf4
Are we still whining about this? Personally I'm back to two shotting non elite mobs so pretty sure it's fine at this point.
Poll on MMO-Champ: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2193945-iLvL-Scaling-Too-far-I-unsubbed-did-you-(Poll)/page25

Yes I don't like it, and it's enough to unsub
167 11.32%

No I don't like it, but its not enough to unsub
336 22.78%

No It doesn't or hasn't affected me
715 48.47%

No I like it
257 17.42%
Glad to support this thread! Back when mob scaling was first announced we were reassured by the devs a few things to ease our fears and quiet our concerns.

1) Scaling would never bleed into old content (it has)

2) Item level wouldnt ever be a factor in mob scaling (now it is)

In the end we swallowed the mob scaling pill and we can never regurgitate it. We MUST draw a line in the sand on this issue or it will only inflate, normalize in the minds of the player base and we will be stuck with it forever. Further the implications of it going forward could easily take the game to a place I would no longer be capable of having any fun playing.

This "feature" needs to be scrapped entirely. Not "fine tuned" to make it more palatable only so they can inflate it later. No, it must be purged.

Never in my long history of playing this game has a single patch been able to completely reverse my demeanor about the game. I have honestly gone from optimistic and excited to meh. I have no drive to log in and I don't find myself dreaming about the future of the game. They have made alot of missteps over the years, for me, this is by far the worst.
Just the latest progressive change blizzard is making to ensure that there is no satisfaction to gearing and that it is only a means to an end, that end of course being raiding.
Posted my thoughts on its own thread before this one popped up. I'll reiterate them here.

My final thoughts on quitting WoW and this whole debacle.. I cannot continue to post in the mega-thread as I get error 500 with every reload. I also cannot post as it continues to say I need to relog back in my account. To this end.. these are my final thoughts on all of this. The trolling has gotten to the extreme - from these so-called people who like this game.

https://youtu.be/wxoPQbOK8U0

To the trolls telling me to kill myself, thank you for the exposure. Your views have gained me a few subs and pennies in ad revenue. Not much to you, of course, but someday I'll thank you again when I'm renown.

To those same people, one day you will feel betrayed - probably when the servers shut down, and by then, I'll be sitting there, telling you it didn't have to be this way, but because you pushed people like me away with your extremely hateful and poisonous boot licking, all I will be able to do is say "I warned you".

When my account time dies, my voice will be silent on the forums. The trolls will say that everyone on the forums complaining are the minority. The reason is because people like me will have finally moved on. Don't kid yourself in thinking otherwise. I've been a loyal customer for 13 years.

It's been fun and I will always have the memories, but you'll someday feel the same thing I do.

With playtime in the hundreds of days, many unique mounts and achievements, a pet collection rated within the top 25 on my server, and a wielder of the scepter of the shifting sands.. I've given this game a lot - and in return, it has spit in my face.

I am but one gear in this machine. Show this game some mercy if you love it like I do, and cut the addiction. Leave this game to the troglodytes who will continue to think blizzard can do no wrong.

-one voice falling silenced-

Oblivion
04/02/2017 10:28 AMPosted by Meelore
Just the latest progressive change blizzard is making to ensure that there is no satisfaction to gearing

hmm?
To reiterate, power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame. We absolutely want you to feel overpowered as you return to steamroll content that once was challenging.
The original thread even gave me the wrong quote and not the OP. XD It is fixed now though.
The original thread keeps getting error 500.

Last page was 397
Replies: 7920
LikesOP: 1,249
DislikesOP: 32

04/02/2017 09:57 AMPosted by Eleanõr
When tempers get upset as much as this, it is natural that the trolls come out in droves. Just do your best to carry on the conversation and ignore them, no matter how bad they get.

Honestly, I am waiting for Blizzard's next comment; It is clear, something has to happen, no matter what direction they go. I've never seen a thread get this high, to the point where it is actually causing server issues.

For better or worse, Blizzard has to say something.


*Wall of Text Snip*


OP, you took that way out of context. If you would see, I am waiting for Blizzard's next comment, IE; Their next, future, hasn't happened yet comment.
With the state of the main thread, Blizzard has to do a follow up...I mean...look at it.

Nearly 8 thousand posts and the thread is literally causing server issues.
04/02/2017 10:29 AMPosted by Òblivion

I am but one gear in this machine. Show this game some mercy if you love it like I do, and cut the addiction. Leave this game to the troglodytes who will continue to think blizzard can do no wrong.

-one voice falling silenced-

Oblivion


My god, the drama.

Maybe there are folks who think Blizzard does plenty wrong, but this change happens to be a positive one? Nah, couldn't be.
Thanks for starting the new thread the old one really is pretty much a mess.

I will state here what I did in the other thread. Although I absolutely hate level scaling I feel iLvL scaling is a step too far. It removes any motivation for someone to grind hard and stretch to harder levels of raiding if the power gain in the world is so minimal/nonexistant.

By far for the worst part is that I feel betrayed by Blizzard once again.

I reluctantly bought Legion because blizzard assured us in a Q & A that they would NOT be doing iLvL scaling. That it was a bad idea.

Then they turned around and did it anyway without so much as a word in the patch notes.

Some in the other thread do not consider this a lie but I certainly do. It is an intentional deception.

I also greatly fear the plan by Blizzard is to put this in all dungeons raids and old content which would in a heartbeat destroy what little of my personal playing style is left in this game. I LOVE flattening old trivial content. I LOVE getting my revenge on the Aboms in the Ghostlands or the Reavers in Hellfire Penninsula. I Love exploring the world when mobs can't touch me. I LOVE running newbies through old dungeons. I LOVE running old dungeons and raids for mounts and achievements. If they do this that is all gone.

I really feel at this point Blizzard owes us all an apology for the deception and they need to remove this terrible concept and never return to it.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753795863?page=395
Linking the first thread too so that no one can just look at this one for how much response there was.
04/02/2017 10:29 AMPosted by Òblivion
I've given this game a lot - and in return, it has spit in my face.


You seriously need to turn off the computer and go outside.
The original thread keeps getting error 500.

Last page was 397
Replies: 7920
LikesOP: 1,249
DislikesOP: 32

<span class="truncated">...</span>

*Wall of Text Snip*


OP, you took that way out of context. If you would see, I am waiting for Blizzard's next comment, IE; Their next, future, hasn't happened yet comment.
With the state of the main thread, Blizzard has to do a follow up...I mean...look at it.

Nearly 8 thousand posts and the thread is literally causing server issues.


No no i quoted the OP on page one of the original thread but for whatever reason it gave me a quote from you and i just assumed it was the correct one and posted it with the blue replies. it has been changed to not show the quote from you.
04/02/2017 10:36 AMPosted by Lohannah
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753795863?page=395
Linking the first thread too so that no one can just look at this one for how much response there was.


Thanks Lohanna ill move the link up to the OP of this thread.
04/02/2017 10:35 AMPosted by Vynara
I also greatly fear the plan by Blizzard is to put this in all dungeons raids and old content which would in a heartbeat destroy what little of my personal playing style is left in this game.


Fear mongering at its best.

You people would faint if you had to play something akin to Everquest...
04/02/2017 10:37 AMPosted by Moonsyou
04/02/2017 10:29 AMPosted by Òblivion
I've given this game a lot - and in return, it has spit in my face.


You seriously need to turn off the computer and go outside.


This. Take a break for two weeks, come back, realize how cringe that sounds.
I started to go back and quote myself from the prior thread, but hopefully it will just be left up.

There was a lot of great discussion there, not just "whining," (or whining about the "whiners," I see we've already got two quality posts here about that!) and not just people attacking and distracting from the issues, or quoting largely irrelevant/inaccurate/unreliable stats from a poll that is visited by a very selective sample size.

If there hadn't been, the thread would've been closed, and quickly. Because there was a lot of distraction/trolling going on, and people feeding it, unfortunately.

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