PSA: Creatures now scale with item level #2

General Discussion
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04/03/2017 07:26 PMPosted by Ilinaaniri
i wanna bring 1-110 zone scaling everywhere. i mean, you lose the ability to Steamroll old content, but rewards from old content would be scaled to your level, itemized to the expansion, and have a chance to titanforge or drop artifact power boosting items.

as well as item scaling forcing you to actually learn your class and also learn to do vital things for your role. instead of steamrolling dungeons with your heirlooms. heirlooms would still not require repairs and would still scale to a point or boost XP gain. they just wouldn't let you steamroll dungeons anymore.

ilvl scaling in low level zones, brings back group quests, which brings people to actually work together and socialize. people being forced to help each other, breathes life into the social aspect. actually having to think, makes the game more engaging.


That sounds awesome as well. The more I think about it the more I really do like item level scaling and feel it can do much good on the balance of wow.
04/03/2017 07:12 PMPosted by Dezhraie
04/03/2017 04:10 PMPosted by Phumbles
Demanding apologies.


Yes, you're right. I am insisting on an apology. And I'll layout why. (Sit back cause this is longer than I usually like to go with posts.)

When ilvl Scaling was put on the PTR without comment I can forgive that. It's the PTR after all. If there's a place to test a large scale change to the game "organically" the PTR is definitely it. Then Ornyx claimed noone posted about it on the PTR forum. That links have been posted to show people commented on things being "off" and not feeling as powerful shows that wasn't the case. But aside from that how does someone comment on a specific change when the change isn't announced. "We secretly replaced their usual brand with Brand X. Let's see if they notice." Misrepresentation. #1.

In that same post it was also stated the change had been on the PTR since January. However in Febrary Lore stated in clear, unmistakable terms that it is against Blizzard's code to make stealth changes to the game. Lie. #2. (I'll let others decide which of the two are the liars.)


Except it was Notice in this and other post at about the same time frame....

Mobs damage increase?
7.2 PTR General Discussion
Posted by Evê back in February

02/18/2017 11:22 PMPosted by Evê
Hi All,

So someone on a different topic in GD made a comment in passing about patch 7.2 making all the mobs/enemies etc harder/healthier/do more damage etc.

Can someone on the PTR confirm or deny this?

Literally (if they are doing this) what is the point? So we are getting more powerful but so are the mobs? I thought the consolation for us pet battlers, archaeologists (all professions really) with world scaling was that eventually we could get gear that makes world scaling "trivial".

If this is going through that certainly wont be the case. We are getting more powerful only to have them more powerful as well. May as well just leave ilvl the way it is right now I really don't get the point?
04/03/2017 07:26 PMPosted by Ilinaaniri
i wanna bring 1-110 zone scaling everywhere.


An atrocious idea that would kill this game. No one will mount farm, or bother soloing old raids for achieve. People do that stuff when they're done with their dailies etc.
04/03/2017 07:27 PMPosted by Dratharzul
04/03/2017 07:23 PMPosted by Sepset
So you don't want to do progression content?


Not right now, no.


Why?!
04/03/2017 04:06 PMPosted by Trallara
04/03/2017 04:03 PMPosted by Sweetpeaz
Maybe you should try a healer.


How much damage do you do now vs when you were gearing up?

I never really quested in resto spec, and only DPS in dungeons when I'm bored so I have no idea.


I do more damage now than when I leveled, but the mobs have out scaled my damage.

Fighting numerous mobs with 2.5 million hp with the constant respawn time is maddening.

I have 3 offensive abilities, one with a 60 cool down. No dots, no escape, and no snare.
Hmmm, reading through the thread, seen people argue that scaling mobs with ilvl will not increase the time it takes to kill them. But it will.

Pre ilvl Scaling - Lets say a mob had 5m health and it took me 10 secs to kill it.
After ilvl Scaling - Mob health goes to 7m health, but my dps remains the same. So it's gonna take me 14 secs to kill it.

This is gonna happen even as I keep gearing up. What would usually take 4-5 secs to kill without ilvl scaling, will take a few seconds more.

And considering, quite a few WQs are just rehashed 100-110 quests and involve killing x number or y number mobs. The additional time taken for a single WQ, may not seem much, but it will all start adding up. And if you want to do them on multiple alts, they will keep adding up.

I guess Blizz is running out of ideas, on how to keep people engaged and taking the lazy approach of making WQs, we have done a few dozen times more tedious.

Will also make it easy for them to get away, with not giving new content in the future, by scaling up old content mobs and presenting them as new content for say patch 8.x or 9.x.
04/03/2017 07:29 PMPosted by Sepset
Why?!


Because killing mobs with better gear is worse than killing mobs now.
04/03/2017 07:24 PMPosted by Ràger
Again that is not the point. They get stronger but so do you. The power progression ends up in the same place, but at a steady pace instead of a sky rocket jump that has no balance.

This way Blizzard can balance new content moving forward around a wide range of item levels instead of forcing gear short cuts just to do current content.


I must disagree - it's exactly the point. I understand what you're saying, but I'm pointing out why the argument isn't working out for you.

You're trying to convince people that this is simply business per usual. If it was, nobody would be complaining. The very point we're arguing against is that our power progression curve has been nerfed. Many of us very much like skyrocketing in power; it's been happening for quite some time now.

It isn't effective to suggest something is the same, while excluding the exact details under debate that make it different.
04/03/2017 07:15 PMPosted by Dratharzul
04/03/2017 06:54 PMPosted by Phumbles
and you're ilvl 823, but sure, you definitely know what's going on.


This is how good (bad) your reading is. I already told you there is no point me getting a better ilvl score only to hit mobs for longer. This is the WHOLE reason why we're here. I stopped bothering when I saw this thread. Sorry that your OCD can't stand to see a number below 850.

Buy a pair of glasses.


And I explained to you how that's false and it's not my fault you won't accept that. Even people on your side know that's not right.
04/03/2017 07:33 PMPosted by Dratharzul
04/03/2017 07:29 PMPosted by Sepset
Why?!


Because killing mobs with better gear is worse than killing mobs now.


I don't think you're understanding how the ilvl scaling works...
04/03/2017 07:26 PMPosted by Ilinaaniri
04/03/2017 06:04 PMPosted by Dratharzul
...

That's because everyone's done it multiple times. If you bring scaling to 1-80 and every mob takes longer to kill, you force people into dungeons. No one is literally going to bother


i wanna bring 1-110 zone scaling everywhere. i mean, you lose the ability to Steamroll old content, but rewards from old content would be scaled to your level, itemized to the expansion, and have a chance to titanforge or drop artifact power boosting items.

as well as item scaling forcing you to actually learn your class and also learn to do vital things for your role. instead of steamrolling dungeons with your heirlooms. heirlooms would still not require repairs and would still scale to a point or boost XP gain. they just wouldn't let you steamroll dungeons anymore.

ilvl scaling in low level zones, brings back group quests, which brings people to actually work together and socialize. people being forced to help each other, breathes life into the social aspect. actually having to think, makes the game more engaging.


I have permanently left 2 games over that garbage. I would simply leave this one too. I strongly suspect I would not leave alone.
04/03/2017 07:33 PMPosted by Vetokend
I must disagree - it's exactly the point. I understand what you're saying, but I'm pointing out why the argument isn't working out for you.

You're trying to convince people that this is simply business per usual. If it was, nobody would be complaining. The very point we're arguing against is that our power progression curve has been nerfed. Many of us very much like skyrocketing in power; it's been happening for quite some time now.

It isn't effective to suggest something is the same, while excluding the exact details under debate that make it different.


Ok I can understand that, but Blizzard has stated for a long time that power progression is a problem with this game. So them trying to curve it is not something that just comes out of the blue.

Yes I understand that it is not the same speed. I just don't understand why that is a problem when you can easily get gear, but is a slower speed really that much of a big deal? Is it worth getting this up in arms over when you have chances lots of them to get that powerful again?
So they scale the entire outside world which nobody wanted or asked for. Then put in a new scenario and decide not to scale it? I know people make jokes about blizz throwing darts at a board but it is really starting to seem like that.
04/03/2017 07:29 PMPosted by Sepset
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Not right now, no.


Why?!


Personally, I do want progression content. REAL progression content, not an illusion fabricated by item level scaling.

I already progressed past World Quests though. They are useful if I want extra order hall resources or whatever reward they offer, but it was mentioned either in a blue post or a dev talk (I cannot find the source) that eventually people would outgear World Quests and they would become somewhat obsolete. I think it was in regards to scaling rewards.

If you want to do older content and still have a challenge, you can try doing it without heirlooms.

One thing that people forget is that there are already options if you want challenging content. Doing old content at a relevant level w/o heirlooms, doing mythic raids or dungeons, etc. This ilvl scaling threatens those who are used to the way things have always been, though.
04/03/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Phumbles
And I explained to you how that's false and it's not my fault you won't accept that. Even people on your side know that's not right.


Zzzzz....

04/03/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sepset
I don't think you're understanding how the ilvl scaling works...


I do, but thanks anyway.
04/03/2017 07:43 PMPosted by Vynara
04/03/2017 07:26 PMPosted by Ilinaaniri
...

i wanna bring 1-110 zone scaling everywhere. i mean, you lose the ability to Steamroll old content, but rewards from old content would be scaled to your level, itemized to the expansion, and have a chance to titanforge or drop artifact power boosting items.

as well as item scaling forcing you to actually learn your class and also learn to do vital things for your role. instead of steamrolling dungeons with your heirlooms. heirlooms would still not require repairs and would still scale to a point or boost XP gain. they just wouldn't let you steamroll dungeons anymore.

ilvl scaling in low level zones, brings back group quests, which brings people to actually work together and socialize. people being forced to help each other, breathes life into the social aspect. actually having to think, makes the game more engaging.


I have permanently left 2 games over that garbage. I would simply leave this one too. I strongly suspect I would not leave alone.


as you get stronger. so do the opponents you face. if a Mob's health Doubles and your Damage Output Quadruples. you still kill it Twice as fast. and damage output climbs quickly through artifact traits.

if every 10 item levels is a 10% increase in health and damage for you. it would likely be a 5% increase for the mobs. meaning you will still kill things faster, you are still gaining power, just not one shotting things.
You'll kill faster at higher ilvl, however, it will still take you longer than before 7.2.
Pre-patch 1.2 seconds steamroll translates to 2.3 after the patch. While it's still faster that say ilvl 880 at 4.5 and 850 at 6.9 (examples) it's still an increase in the time it takes.

So while the nay-sayers are saying you still kill fast they neglect to add that the time is still delayed. They negelect to add that that extra second per mob can be the difference between a cool-down to keep you alive or a run back to your corpse. Most especially when the abundance of mobs end up with 4-6 mobs on you.

Now multiply that 1.1 second times all the mobs required for dailies, times a week, times a month, times a year.

It adds up.
It's a waste of my time. More work for the same pay isn't ok.
04/03/2017 03:51 PMPosted by Nui
04/03/2017 03:48 PMPosted by Aladrath
In other words: Blizzard saw something that wasn't broken, and tried to fix it anyway.

They do that a lot these days.


Make no mistake, that is not what I meant.

I'm not saying things were not broken. But the solution is not to make it more broken.


From experience I can comfortably say that if you are referring to Blizzard that is the only path that they know.

If its already broken find some way to screw it up worse.

Sorry. Not Sorry.
04/03/2017 07:53 PMPosted by Ilinaaniri
as you get stronger. so do the opponents you face. if a Mob's health Doubles and your Damage Output Quadruples. you still kill it Twice as fast. and damage output climbs quickly through artifact traits.

if every 10 item levels is a 10% increase in health and damage for you. it would likely be a 5% increase for the mobs. meaning you will still kill things faster, you are still gaining power, just not one shotting things.


With the current implementation of this system, or at least what they had put out before they tweaked it, that bear or demon who scaled with you, will probably drop the same gray items and some silver for your troubles. I'm not particularly okay with that.

If you kill a bear in an area, leave for a few weeks and gear up, come back and kill the same bear in the same area, the effort you put in to gear up and defeat enemies with more ease than a few weeks ago, will probably give you the same scraps of fur and coin. Maybe a bear flank.

And that's a hypothetical. The scaling that was put in didn't scale the reward yielded for your effort. I would assume future iterations of an item level scaling would do the same. But I would -hope- otherwise.
should Blizzard put this scaling into LFR to Mythic raids there will be such an outcry that will make the current screaming pale by comparison. and I believe the goal is to put scaling everywhere from the starter zones all the way to mythic Raids run by top 100 guilds. why else would they put something so destructive into game but to save money by slowing progression by guilds and individual chars in the outdoors

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