Blizzard straight nerfs Sub.

Rogue
This might be the end of the spec being viable at all.

6 years blizzard later decides to nerf Subterfuge.

We are losing an extra SS because of this.

With about 9 restealth per fight we are losing 9ss with is going to be approximently 27 combo points per fight, going by the timeing of shadowblade up time and set bonus.

This is a massive problem, we are already on the edge of running out of ShadowDance and need the trinket, the set bonus and restealths to keep it on the edge.

We losing Shadow Dances which in turn produce more combo points and more dances.

Seriouly, Blizzard JUST DELETE Shoulders if you are too dumb to make it work the way you want and leave Sub alone.

Thanks.
I bet he's blushing right now
03/27/2017 10:57 PMPosted by Omgbak
I bet he's blushing right now


How are you going to feel when I get the SIN boots tomorrow?
Master of Subtlety wont be getting the +3 seconds per Vanish, either.
I'm actually really curious just how much of an impact this will have on the spec.
Note: The damage of a spec is the result of intentional tuning. If spec's damage is too low, it can be tuned to be higher, but that is a separate issue.

The 'nerf' to the mantle was a bug fix, and caused the item to be overvalued in the first place. As a result, you have more flexibility in which legendary you can use, and/or you care less about which specific one you get.
03/27/2017 11:19 PMPosted by Aeriwen
Note: The damage of a spec is the result of intentional tuning. If spec's damage is too low, it can be tuned to be higher, but that is a separate issue.

The 'nerf' to the mantle was a bug fix, and caused the item to be overvalued in the first place. As a result, you have more flexibility in which legendary you can use, and/or you care less about which specific one you get.


The mantle was unchanged.

The nerf was to the Sub spec.

There was no bug at all.

If blizzard didn't like how the shoulders were working they should have changed the shoulders.

The damage produced by the ring is different for each spec, it would have been a simple thing to change the duration of the shoulder for each spec.

Instead, they flushed the entire SUb spec down the toilet.

The insanity of the blizzard has no end. and you are stupid.
03/27/2017 10:58 PMPosted by Brutain
03/27/2017 10:57 PMPosted by Omgbak
I bet he's blushing right now


How are you going to feel when I get the SIN boots tomorrow?

I'll get mad but imma slap Sephuz on the booty

Anyway, I still think they did the right thing in nerfing the shoulders, because compared to every other legendary, those were straight BiS for the three specs no questions asked ( might be somewhat arguable for outlaw, but sin/sub ... )

I admit I don't have them, and even got mad because of my bad luck with legendaries so far, but let's get real, the amount of fights where you see an overwhelming amount of shoulder users in front of every other legendary users is just stupid

They should've put all legendaries as utility ones from the start and bake the !@#$ing effects on the classes to address balancing issues, but ... well ... with the legendary system the way it is, you can't expect the "BiS" ones to never change, specially when "Diablo 3 developers" are "doing their jobs"
03/28/2017 12:50 AMPosted by Omgbak
03/27/2017 10:58 PMPosted by Brutain
...

How are you going to feel when I get the SIN boots tomorrow?

I'll get mad but imma slap Sephuz on the booty

Anyway, I still think they did the right thing in nerfing the shoulders, because compared to every other legendary, those were straight BiS for the three specs no questions asked ( might be somewhat arguable for outlaw, but sin/sub ... )

I admit I don't have them, and even got mad because of my bad luck with legendaries so far, but let's get real, the amount of fights where you see an overwhelming amount of shoulder users in front of every other legendary users is just stupid

They should've put all legendaries as utility ones from the start and bake the !@#$ing effects on the classes to address balancing issues, but ... well ... with the legendary system the way it is, you can't expect the "BiS" ones to never change, specially when "Diablo 3 developers" are "doing their jobs"


They nerfed Sub and kepted the shoulders the same.

They should have KEPT SUB THE SAME and changed the shoulders.
Link?
03/28/2017 04:41 AMPosted by Shadøwvanish
Link?
The only link is to this:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/20629899/world-of-warcraft-7-2-the-tomb-of-sargeras-patch-notes
Which you'll only see:
  • Mantle of the Master Assassin: Fixed a bug where Subterfuge combined with Vanish granted an additional 3 seconds of benefit.
  • However, if you log on the PTR(or on live in about 9 hours), you'll see they didn't touch the shoulders at all. And, in fact, made Vanish break immediately upon dealing damage if you're specced Subterfuge. Which, in turn causes the Shoulder buff and Master of Subtlety to immediately begin ticking away instead of delayed by 3 seconds.

    In addition, the "bug" also kept you in Stealth(as in, hidden). So, that's gone too. But, that was mostly a PVP benefit more than anything.
    03/28/2017 04:41 AMPosted by Shadøwvanish
    Link?
    The only link is to this:
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/20629899/world-of-warcraft-7-2-the-tomb-of-sargeras-patch-notes
    Which you'll only see:
  • Mantle of the Master Assassin: Fixed a bug where Subterfuge combined with Vanish granted an additional 3 seconds of benefit.
  • However, if you log on the PTR(or on live in about 9 hours), you'll see they didn't touch the shoulders at all. And, in fact, made Vanish break immediately upon dealing damage if you're specced Subterfuge. Which, in turn causes the Shoulder buff and Master of Subtlety to immediately begin ticking away instead of delayed by 3 seconds.

    In addition, the "bug" also kept you in Stealth(as in, hidden). So, that's gone too. But, that was mostly a PVP benefit more than anything.[/quot

    <span class="truncated">...</span>The only link is to this:
    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/20629899/world-of-warcraft-7-2-the-tomb-of-sargeras-patch-notes
    Which you'll only see:
    [quote]
  • Mantle of the Master Assassin: Fixed a bug where Subterfuge combined with Vanish granted an additional 3 seconds of benefit.
  • However, if you log on the PTR(or on live in about 9 hours), you'll see they didn't touch the shoulders at all. And, in fact, made Vanish break immediately upon dealing damage if you're specced Subterfuge. Which, in turn causes the Shoulder buff and Master of Subtlety to immediately begin ticking away instead of delayed by 3 seconds.

    In addition, the "bug" also kept you in Stealth(as in, hidden). So, that's gone too. But, that was mostly a PVP benefit more than anything.


    So they outright removed most of what Subterfuge does and is supposed to do, and what it says in the tooltip it's supposed to do, to "fix" the shoulders. Incredible.

    Question is, will they revert their mistake, or leave it like that? I'm not sure I want to take the gamble this time. Perhaps time to stop hoping and just switch to Assassination like everyone else.

    Does this affect shadow dance as well? Like the whole 3 second bonus stealth moves is gone across the board?
    03/28/2017 05:23 AMPosted by Yougotbelfed
    So they outright removed most of what Subterfuge does and is supposed to do, and what it says in the tooltip it's supposed to do, to "fix" the shoulders. Incredible.

    Question is, will they revert their mistake, or leave it like that? I'm not sure I want to take the gamble this time. Perhaps time to stop hoping and just switch to Assassination like everyone else.

    Does this affect shadow dance as well? Like the whole 3 second bonus stealth moves is gone across the board?
    Fortunately, nothing else really changed as far as I can tell. It still does what it says, at least. You are able to use your Stealth attacks out of Stealth for 3s upon leaving Stealth. And it still increases Shadow Dance duration by 2 seconds.

    It's just the interaction with Vanish that got nerfed. Unless there is something I am forgetting.
    03/28/2017 06:03 AMPosted by Knocrogue
    Fortunately, nothing else really changed as far as I can tell. It still does what it says, at least. You are able to use your Stealth attacks out of Stealth for 3s upon leaving Stealth. And it still increases Shadow Dance duration by 2 seconds.

    It's just the interaction with Vanish that got nerfed. Unless there is something I am forgetting.


    You are correct. People are just upset because its been working this way forever. Ever since the talent was implemented (iirc). It's just that now with the Legendary shoulders the bug has been a big enough deal that they finally decided to fix it.

    You are supposed to leave stealth as soon as you make an attack. Your Shoulders buff and Master of Subtlety buffs are supposed to start ticking down.

    The only thing Subterfuge does for Assassination is to allow Garrote with no cooldown for 3 seconds after Stealth.

    This is a long term bug that has been fixed because now its kind of a big deal.
    so... what the op is saying is that in essence, old subterfuge essentially made the game consider you "stealthed" with the subterfuge buff. allowing full use over every and any ability or passive that says "only usable while stealthed" during subterfuge; but now it is considering you not in stealth with subterfuge, but you can still use your openers for 3 seconds. is this the situation?
    03/28/2017 08:38 AMPosted by Shivetta
    so... what the op is saying is that in essence, old subterfuge essentially made the game consider you "stealthed" with the subterfuge buff. allowing full use over every and any ability or passive that says "only usable while stealthed" during subterfuge; but now it is considering you not in stealth with subterfuge, but you can still use your openers for 3 seconds. is this the situation?

    Slight correction: old subterfuge made the game consider you "stealthed during Vanish buff"
    wait, so you're saying the 3 second buff of guaranteed stealth you get from vanishing was stacking with 3 second subterfuge for a total of 12 seconds uptime from vanish? i dont have the shoulders im trying to understand. and also the shoulders don't gain any benefit from subterfuge at all anymore?
    03/28/2017 09:20 AMPosted by Shivetta
    wait, so you're saying the 3 second buff of guaranteed stealth you get from vanishing was stacking with 3 second subterfuge for a total of 12 seconds uptime from vanish? i dont have the shoulders im trying to understand. and also the shoulders don't gain any benefit from subterfuge at all anymore?

    No, Vanish buff lasts 3 seconds, it's like an "enhanced stealth", but if you weren't spec'ed in Subterfuge, if you did any damage dealing ability, you would just lose the Vanish buff and instantly go into the 6s shoulder window

    Now, if you were spec'ed into Subterfuge and did Vanish, for the whole 3 seconds, you could attack and still maintain the Vanish buff, and when it ented, ONLY WHEN VANISH BUFF ENDED, the 6s shoulder window would start to tick down

    Now, looks like any attack from Vanish instantly takes you out of it, regardless of using Subterfuge or not, so no "9s crit window with Vanish by using shoulders" anymore
    i knew they wouldnt let it work with shadow dance, but i figured they'd leave subterfuge alone. that's super lame.
    *chariots of fire theme*

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFYeo04BldU

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