[Request] Neutralize Votekick Trolling

General Discussion
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05/04/2017 06:06 AMPosted by Jemaya
I think you're overlooking the fact that I am paying to play this game. To have fun.

I am not paying to be abused by someone in a dungeon, or to listen to someone being abusive to another member of the party. Now, I may be an outlier here, but I don't particularly find that a fun or enjoyable experience.

If we lose the ability to kick people for negative behaviour, we will see an increase in negative behaviour.

As I said before, I'd rather keep the ability to kick the jerks, even if it does mean that maybe one day I will be kicked for no reason.


I'm not overlooking it, and I also pay to play this game for fun, hence this whole thread. And I agree with everything you've said up to that last sentence.

So what I was suggesting is that if they're being toxic purely by trash talking in party chat, you can ignore them. If they're being toxic by sabotaging the group with poor performance, you can kick them for not meeting performance metrics. Either way you don't have to interact with them in any way once they've been ignored/kicked - they essentially become a bot, any more than you would have to interact with a virulently toxic trade chat troll who happened to be standing next to you at the bank. Do you feel those options aren't enough?

05/04/2017 05:37 AMPosted by Wenchyone
I like the idea of a mechanic like ignore for dungeons, I would rather wait a bit longer in que than deal with people pulling the world, sitting back and taking a ride, here let me trip on that peeps, and the like. I mean honestly, most of the time it is less than a half hour of your life or an excuse to take break but the idea is still intriguing:)


I like that too. More options for filtering and customizing your matchmaking experience would be perfect. Do you want to only group with people from your server? Your battlegroup? Filter out groups containing people in your exclusion list? Poof, magic. All those would be lovely.
05/04/2017 06:05 AMPosted by Bohin
05/04/2017 06:01 AMPosted by Pouncey
...

AI has existed for decades. You just don't call it AI.


AI does not exist. A sentient, self-aware, synthetic intelligence does not exist. We have rudimentary VIs at best.


Fun thing about AI. It gets called AI until a practical use is found for it.

Like the word recognition technology that can read human writing and type it in a word document.

The basic part of the AI is that the program has to be capable of learning. And that has been created many time over.

What you are talking about is a "general artificial intelligence" and once it's created we'll probably get a singularity fairly quickly and then either all the world problems are solved or the singularity kills us all :)
05/04/2017 06:46 AMPosted by Awanek
05/04/2017 06:06 AMPosted by Jemaya
I think you're overlooking the fact that I am paying to play this game. To have fun.

I am not paying to be abused by someone in a dungeon, or to listen to someone being abusive to another member of the party. Now, I may be an outlier here, but I don't particularly find that a fun or enjoyable experience.

If we lose the ability to kick people for negative behaviour, we will see an increase in negative behaviour.

As I said before, I'd rather keep the ability to kick the jerks, even if it does mean that maybe one day I will be kicked for no reason.


I'm not overlooking it, and I also pay to play this game for fun, hence this whole thread. And I agree with everything you've said up to that last sentence.

So what I was suggesting is that if they're being toxic purely by trash talking in party chat, you can ignore them. If they're being toxic by sabotaging the group with poor performance, you can kick them for not meeting performance metrics. Either way you don't have to interact with them in any way once they've been ignored/kicked - they essentially become a bot, any more than you would have to interact with a virulently toxic trade chat troll who happened to be standing next to you at the bank. Do you feel those options aren't enough?

05/04/2017 05:37 AMPosted by Wenchyone
I like the idea of a mechanic like ignore for dungeons, I would rather wait a bit longer in que than deal with people pulling the world, sitting back and taking a ride, here let me trip on that peeps, and the like. I mean honestly, most of the time it is less than a half hour of your life or an excuse to take break but the idea is still intriguing:)


I like that too. More options for filtering and customizing your matchmaking experience would be perfect. Do you want to only group with people from your server? Your battlegroup? Filter out groups containing people in your exclusion list? Poof, magic. All those would be lovely.


Yay 5 hour queue times for a heroic dungeon!
05/04/2017 06:47 AMPosted by Kimmiroa
<span class="truncated">...</span>

AI does not exist. A sentient, self-aware, synthetic intelligence does not exist. We have rudimentary VIs at best.


Fun thing about AI. It gets called AI until a practical use is found for it.

Like the word recognition technology that can read human writing and type it in a word document.

The basic part of the AI is that the program has to be capable of learning. And that has been created many time over.

What you are talking about is a "general artificial intelligence" and once it's created we'll probably get a singularity fairly quickly and then either all the world problems are solved or the singularity kills us all :)


I like the version where the AI kills us all and then begins conquering the universe. It's like the Replicators from Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis. : D
05/04/2017 06:48 AMPosted by Kimmiroa
Yay 5 hour queue times for a heroic dungeon!


Simple solution to that is make your exclusion list more permissive. I personally wouldn't mind waiting longer if I could elect to group only with people from other RP servers, for example.
Vote kick trolling is not a problem big enough to merit removing our ability to kick people from random matchmaking groups.
Since I seem to be on the good side of the down vote passe these days.
Here is me thinking outloud or in this case as I type forum post just before morning (loosly translated) 'Active morning meditation'.
Sufficed to say thank you Mrs, Sir, or Vos(roughly: It. or no gender yet)
I have personally made it no secret for the reasons you say about the Vote Kick system.
I suppose I have a question in the back of my head when I make something. What if something goes wrong?
-Make a website? It takes articles? What if a article was incomplete? or Has a typo?
Where's the undue button?

Where this is going is this going
(My Siffu made these up he's a geek): 'Man who talks to yoda gets good advice. And reely nifty lamps'
'Man who walks in sunshine with a padawan sees the sunny side of life'

So Where is the undue button. What if something goes wrong?
In a instance and their's a TStorm? Thor knows how to put on a show. You might loose power and grumble about needing to fix clocks [for example]
Doesn't it annoy you to get back and... 'Ugh a 10 Minut debuff because' of a Thunder Storm or Mon Soon problem.As a concrete example? Now if you're in the Legion Ship scenario and the power goes out: Debuff (yes I got hit with that.)

And then their's as you point out: The Troll. Knew to a map? haven't don it before 'Tehee hee hee' (You have been removed from the group because Cobra Cobra Cobra and two famous OrangaTangas)
'You've been removed from the group for not face palming hard enough'
'You removed from the group becase G I R L' (And I didn't know anyone still used that dead meme)
A guildy clames they got booted from TimeWalking WOTLK 'Who doesn't like beer?'
And as you noted right before a boss It/She was new to WoW. First time tanking. I thought it might be fun and helpful to show them WOTLk dungeons to get a feel for tank jargon.

#Anec Dotall experience why I'm agains and some possible alternatives.
(TLDR Lets see if a Karma System works better and just more fun!)
I can't help but wonder if a fun Karma system might work better place be more fun
First get rid of vote, if you're insisting on the current debuff.
Better and possibly just more fun ones:
-Karma idea: On the negative side example
Negative karma TEMPORARILY adds fun status's: A smart alec spirit follows you around. Lime the many Troll (the race) do. Such as the 1k Lake Quest. Or Mogoshan Vaults where quite a few Zul and Zandlari NPC's turn into spirits and occasionally follow the party around.
Turn into a Mongu Spirit (the panda clay people race) can still quest, do a few WQ's but repairs and vendors cost a bit more
Get smart aleck notes in the mail.

Postive side
Somehow the system notes you were generally decent or out right fun.
TEMPORARILY:
Get no repair bills.
A shorter Que
Fun and Funny cute pets (like a bear or stuff)
Vendors and NPC's actually like you and talk about how cool and fun your toon is

These points could add up somehow so as that gradually they last just a little longer. For much hillarity on either the postive or negative side.

The idea being that by somehow encouraging through fun stuff (possibly) the person behind the screen the fun and generall much more cool side to not being a @#*#*%#@.
On the other hand if they don't and start racking up negative karma npcs generally are suspect of them. Hopefully they get the idea being a troll (the internet jerk) is just not done.

It also is a little less likely for things go wrong their's a simple undue button. They Get DC'd for what ever reason? no big thing can que back up.
(for example)
Honestly, just add a timer before the first kicks can be made.

And that's if anything at all.

Groups that kick for bad reasons will usually finish the dungeon before they can kick anyway.

Groups that have reasons to kick can still kick, just not right away.

There's already decent punishments for leaving a dungeon, and you can only do so much to combat trolling.

I don't think anything really needs to be done, but if you're going to do something, don't make it overtly complex. No matter how complex you make it, it'll still be abused by someone if they really want to.
If you make it all the way to the last boss there should be no reason to vote kick at that point.
05/04/2017 06:06 AMPosted by Jemaya
I think you're overlooking the fact that I am paying to play this game. To have fun.

I am not paying to be abused by someone in a dungeon, or to listen to someone being abusive to another member of the party. Now, I may be an outlier here, but I don't particularly find that a fun or enjoyable experience.

If we lose the ability to kick people for negative behaviour, we will see an increase in negative behaviour.

As I said before, I'd rather keep the ability to kick the jerks, even if it does mean that maybe one day I will be kicked for no reason.


I'm not overlooking it, and I also pay to play this game for fun, hence this whole thread. And I agree with everything you've said up to that last sentence.

So what I was suggesting is that if they're being toxic purely by trash talking in party chat, you can ignore them. If they're being toxic by sabotaging the group with poor performance, you can kick them for not meeting performance metrics. Either way you don't have to interact with them in any way once they've been ignored/kicked - they essentially become a bot, any more than you would have to interact with a virulently toxic trade chat troll who happened to be standing next to you at the bank. Do you feel those options aren't enough?


I do put toxic people on ignore.

However, I still have to witness (or be a target of) their toxic behaviour before I put them on ignore. That kind of thing is unpleasant, and as I said before, is not something I want to put up with in my leisure time.

If we lose the ability to kick people for negative behaviour, we will see an increase in negative behaviour.

Your idea would mean we would see more toxic, unpleasant behaviour.

Nobody wants an increase in toxic behaviour. Well, I suppose the toxic people do, but the rest of us don't.

I am not saying that undeserved kicks don't happen. However, I don't think they happen often enough for the drastic solution you are proposing.

I think you are blowing the problem out of proportion, and that you are not looking at the potential negative consequences of your idea. You are trying to fix a relatively small problem by creating a much bigger one.


If we lose the ability to kick people for negative behaviour, we will see an increase in negative behaviour.
.


You mean it could be worse than it is today ?

I stopped doing LFR NH. Healers in dps spec not healing causing wipes, tanks in dps specs not holding aggro and one spectacular one where we engaged Gul'dan and the 2 tanks left the group.

Folks not knowing the encounter is one thing but folks ruining an encounter on purpose is quite another.
05/04/2017 08:16 AMPosted by Brockthorn


If we lose the ability to kick people for negative behaviour, we will see an increase in negative behaviour.
.


You mean it could be worse than it is today ?

I stopped doing LFR NH. Healers in dps spec not healing causing wipes, tanks in dps specs not holding aggro and one spectacular one where we engaged Gul'dan and the 2 tanks left the group.

Folks not knowing the encounter is one thing but folks ruining an encounter on purpose is quite another.
I feel like I was in this lfr with you or it was one very much like it lol
I will kick people if they

1) are actively hindering the group. I don't care about reasons, but if you're trying to wipe the group / raid then you're gone.

2) People raging or being douches. If you are raging at the healer because you ran off and got yourself killed and start being abusive to them - you're gone. Similarly, if the healer declares they are going to stop healing someone because reasons - they're gone. Basically anyone being an enormous !@# I will vote to kick.

3) Being afk. If you can't be bothered doing the dungeon, then don't queue. If you must go away for a legitimate reason - say so. Even if it's just typing AFK.

4) DPS queuing as heals or tank without switching to that role. (No I don't care if you're geared out the wazoo. So am I. Stop trying to game the dps queue)
Admittedly I did not read all the pages of this because I'm on a little break at work and don't have time, but I already have a huge flaw with your criteria on healers getting the boot.

A very geared healer like myself queues for LFR for mog stuff. All it would take is one tranquility cast and no other lower geared healers could catch me. I'd outheal them by a vast margin without trying because I'm so much higher than say an 865 healer of some kind, alt or otherwise.

By your parameters, the other healers could be given the boot by not doing enough hps. There's barely anything to heal in LFR as it is so having a healer at my ilevel in there would completely break those parameters.

Something to think about.

And for the record I'm pro keeping VTK as it is for the occasion when it is needed. If I wasn't able to kick the afks and trolls last exp in HFC when I was running for mogs it would have been infuriating.
Just another quick additional set of things for people to munch on.
Way before VoteToKick and debuff was a thing people could come and go from groups. If you didn't like a group or it wasn't working. Something came up. You could leave. Consider how nice that is compared to this system
Many people now saying oh no no it has to stay to try and force people to not leave consider this. That's like one of the reasons for so many trolls now. They can't leave. They'll get a debuff if they do.

Many people going on about how it's so great and the evil troll will surely learn. Will be here next week or tomorrow when the invasion crashes. Oh yes they are the ones who say. It's a horribly evil systems! Burn it!.

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