Discipline in 7.2.5 Cont.

Class Development
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Original thread got capped.

Link: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20754365397#post-1

EDIT: To get everyone up to speed, current changes so far (as of 4/27/2017):

New talent layout:

http://ptr.wowhead.com/talent-calc/priest/discipline

Level 15: [Twist of Fate] - [Castigation] - [Schism]
- Twist of Fate added, The Penitent made baseline.

Level 30: [Angelic Feather] - [Body and Soul] - [Masochism]
- Unchanged.

Level 45: [Shining Force] - [Psychic Voice] - [Dominant Mind]
- Unchanged.

Level 60: [Power Word: Solace] - [Shield Discipline] - [Mindbender]
- Unchanged.

Level 75: [Shadow Covenant] - [Power Infusion] - [Sanctuary]
- Shadow Covenant added, Contrition made baseline.
- Sanctuary added, Twist of Fate moved.
- Sanctuary: Smite's absorption effect is increased by 50%.


Level 90: [Clarity of Will] - [Divine Star] - [Halo]
- Unchanged.

Level 100: [Purge the Wicked] - [Grace] - [Evangelism]
- Shadow Covenant moved, Evangelism added.
Evangelism: Instant cast, 1 min cooldown - Extends the duration of all your active Atonements by 8 seconds.


Spell changes:

[Power Word: Radiance]
Now 2 second cast, 2 charges - 15 second recharge.
A burst of light heals the target and 4 injured allies within 30 yards for (250% of Spell Power), and applies Atonement for 50% of its normal duration.

[Plea]
Now costs 1.5% of base mana, mana cost does not scale with Atonement.

[Shadow Covenant]
Now heals for 500% of Spell Power (was 450%).


Continue discussion here, unless they increase the original thread cap. Keep the feedback flowing!
Schism needs some love. Its just not competitive enough next to the other two.

Some Options to Explore :
- Make it instant cast
- Cost less mana
- Increase the damage modifier to 40-50%
- Extend the duration of the modifier
- Substantially increase its damage
- Scrap it completely and replace it with a talent that increases smite's damage
I think if smite is getting a damage buff, i think PW:Solace should as well. Maybe not as much, but should get some
I'd like to see that buff to Smite that was on during internal testing! But agreed, Solace needs to stay 25% stronger than Smite, and Schism could really use a mana buff. Maybe 22k for Schism?

Slightly faster PW:R feels nice, as does base Contrition. Almost there!
Edited my original post to include the current changes. If I missed anything please let me know. Thanks all!
My ideas for 7.2.5 talent trees based on my post in the last thread with adjustments noted.
Level 15:
Twist of Fate - The threshold needs to be 40-50% instead of 25%.
The Penitent - In the current PTR this is baselined. Castigation should be baselined instead. This talent is more competitive in the tier.
Schism - Increase the duration to 8 seconds to allow a little forgiveness.
The goal on this tier is to give options. As it is now Castigation is the only decent choice.

Level 30:
No changes

Level 45:
No changes

Level 60:
Power Word: Solace - This talent needs something. I'm just not sure what. Maybe more damage or more mana returned.
Shield Discipline - Maybe have this work with Clarity of Will as well, but that may lead to WoD shield style healing which Blizzard doesn't seem to like.
Mindbender - No changes
This tier is basically about mana recovery. It's difficult to balance. The one active power (SW:S) needs to be a bit more appealing because it complicates the rotation.

Level 75:
Purge the Wicked - Change it to chain to all targets within 10 yards. This never felt like a level 100 talent. Having it spread to multiple targets frees up GCDs.
Grace - Remove the Atonement requirement. Personally I think this should baseline and something new be put at whatever tier it's at.
Holy Nova - I was thinking this would be great here. Make sure it isn't affected by Atonement. Disc needs a quick AoE damage option.
I want this tier about damage abilities. Finally on this tier Power Infusion needs to be baseline. As a talent there won't be many things ever picked in place of it and I don't want to see it nerfed so other talents become more appealing.

Level 90:
Clarity of Will - Lower the mana cost to 2.5% or remove the cast time. Alternatively just have it make Power Word: Shield stronger.
Divine Star - Have it interact with Atonement.
Halo - No changes.

Level 100:
Shadow Covenant - Make sure this is a new spell and doesn't replace Power Word: Radiance.
Sanctuary - Bump the effect on Smite from the current PTR 50% to 100%.
Evangelism - No change.
The idea with this idea is to allow players to alter how they heal. If they want throughput heals that aren't reliant on Atonement they pick Shadow Covenant. If they want to focus more on damage prevention they pick Sanctuary. Finally if they like Atonement they pick Evangelism.

With all these above, the numbers on each would need to be looked at for balance. This is just a rough idea and I'm open to feedback.
04/27/2017 11:04 AMPosted by Ihsahn
Edited my original post to include the current changes. If I missed anything please let me know. Thanks all!


You should also add that Shadow Word: Pain's damage was buffed:

Discipline Priest core passive Increases damage/healing of Shadow Word: Pain by 36% (was 24%). Increases periodic damage/healing of Shadow Word: Pain by 36% (was 24%). Increases buff duration of Shadow Word: Pain by 0. Priest - Discipline Spec.


Purge the Wicked was also buffed though not as much:

Purge the Wicked Cleanses the target with fire, causing 0 Fire damage and an additional [ 52% of Spell Power (was 48%)] Fire damage over 20 sec. Spreads to an additional nearby enemy when you cast Penance on the target. Can't be cast in Shadowform. Discipline Priest - Level 100 Talent. 2% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. Instant.
I'll probably be branded a freak for saying this (more than I already am), but I think Purge the Wicked actually does have its place, it's just not high end progression. It could be a decent pick for casual normal raiders. Normal raids are often overhealed, and damage is lower overall, so damage bursts are healed up quickly and a long tail on burst is much less useful. Combine that with unskilled players who may have trouble anticipating and building up a big burst (and popping a cooldown on top of it), and a passive boost to regular throughput looks pretty good.

Schism is also my go-to talent for soloing and casual dungeons. I'm okay with having talents that aren't for progression raiding. Fairer feedback might be "how about one row just for meaningful choices in progression raiding?"
Though I wrote my initial impressions in the older thread, I'll add some more thoughts and suggestions with regards to the patch here, at least as far as the Talents are concerned... Still need to think about the spell changes.

1) Level 15: I would rate the three talents as follows: Castigation --> Schism --> Twist of Fate.

For most situations, Castigation will be our talent of choice. It offers a significant DPS and healing boost at no additional cost either in the form of button clicking, mana or GCD. It is reliable and always-on.

Schism may see some use in PvP or solo situations, but the very tight 6-second timer and the relatively high mana cost make it prohibitive for group or raid play.

Finally, Twist of Fate. It is not a bad talent, by any stretch, but given the option of the other two I feel that it falls short. The situations when it will be active enough to outshine Castigation's benefit are few and not reliable enough to warrant taking this over a constant buff like Castigation.

--> My suggestions here would be to increase the 6-second timer of Schism to 8 or 10 seconds and lower its mana cost. For Twist of Fate, the trigger should either be higher (40 or 50%) or the duration increased to 15 seconds.

2) Level 75: Again, as with the level 15 talents, we have 2 clear winners and one talent that falls short.

Power Infusion remains an overall desirable talent, both for raiding and grouping and the new Sanctuary talent could be a viable one for raiders (depending on how much our new rotation allows the use of Smite).

Shadow Covenant simply doesn't have what it takes because it suffers from a high mana cost and the heal absorb which end up making it sub-par.

--> My suggestions here would be to add a Serendipity-style effect to Sanctuary, making it reduce the recast timer of PW:Radiance by 2 seconds each time it was cast. This would make it the preferred choice for raiders while still leaving Power Infusion as a very desirable choice for groups or solo play.

With regards to Shadow Covenant, the mana cost should be cut in half OR it should also apply Atonements.

3) Level 90: I have always felt that these talents should have more interaction with our Atonement mechanic. Divine Star and Halo should either apply Atonements to all injured allies they heal, or they should apply their healing on every hit rather than just the first one.

Clarity of Will should also apply Atonement.

4) Level 100: Again we have 2 talents that seem to be significantly more desirable and one that falls behind. Evangelism looks like the top choice for raiders, though I have to admit it feels a little like something you'd use to correct a mistake than something that would really help a lot in general situations. Like "Oh, damn, I applied my Atonements too early! I need a little more time!" kind of deal that will be of less use when we grow more accustomed to each fight's mechanics and timings.

Grace remains a solid choice for grouping, especially for higher M+ (given some of the more annoying new affixes).

Here, Purge the Wicked falls behind, as a talent for easier dungeons or perhaps solo content. Given that the damage bracket between SW:P and PtW closed a little since PtW wasn't buffed as much as SW:P adds to this.

--> Suggestions: Purge the Wicked should be made to jump to 2 or 3 nearby enemies OR be given an Absorb component (like Smite's) with every tick, perhaps for 25% of what Smite has.

Evangelism should also be modified to either refresh Atonement duration (not just add to it), OR it should have its recast timer reduced to 40-45 seconds.

D.
The new changes make the patch less daunting.

I still feel castigation should be baseline rather than the penitent.

I'd like to see the atonement duration of PW: Radiance returned to 100% or at least 75%.

Still not a fan of charges, but I think it is something that we can adjust to considering our new 100 talent - evangelism.

Overall I'm going to continue pouring my AP in disc now.
04/27/2017 12:05 PMPosted by Brighter
I'd like to see the atonement duration of PW: Radiance returned to 100% or at least 75%.

I didn't comment on Power Word: Radiance in my talent post above, but I agree with you on your pretense. It just seems like the power took a double hit with reduced Atonement and a charge system. I can understand Blizzard not wanting a single Disc priest to Atone an entire raid, but it is a step too far. I could live with the change if the cast time became instant.
04/27/2017 12:24 PMPosted by Emrill
04/27/2017 12:05 PMPosted by Brighter
I'd like to see the atonement duration of PW: Radiance returned to 100% or at least 75%.

I didn't comment on Power Word: Radiance in my talent post above, but I agree with you on your pretense. It just seems like the power took a double hit with reduced Atonement and a charge system. I can understand Blizzard not wanting a single Disc priest to Atone an entire raid, but it is a step too far. I could live with the change if the cast time became instant.


Yeah I expected more that a .5 second difference in cast time.
Reposting from the previous thread to hopefully spur additional discussion.
Fully disclosure: at the time of copy it had 1 downvote.

Talent location change 1:
Purge the Wicked (100) and Schism (15) trade places. Options become: Generally low uptime, high impact passive in ToF. Strong penance for bigger AoE burst or ST heal on a CD. Easier setup and stronger Hot healing via Purge the wicked. (Purge would be an appealing option in mythic environments and add fights with low HP adds where tabbing and dotting mobs isn't efficient. Background hot provides bandwidth to smite and do other tasks in Dungeons which is likely good for new players [see my previous post about bandwidth] Castigation being a solid baseline). The Purge hot doesn't seem great with shorter atonement duration but sees a nice modification with Evangelism in the 100 tier. Additionally, purge the wicked provides a nice leveling quality of life modification to burn down mobs while solo.

And

Talent Location Change 2
Clarity of Will (90) and Shadow Cov (75) trade places . The basic idea would be to make the 75 tier a spectrum of single target to AOE utility . Clarity of Will (buffed, it seems weak), versus a ease of play passive with the stronger smite absorb, versus PI which is a CD which can modify a lot of the disc play style. PI allows more smites for more healing, faster rapture application, strong shadow mend spam, etc. The 90 tier becomes the AOE tier. I still like the Shadow Cov change to make it behave like shadow mend.

As it stands, assuming the trend in feedback stands, most won't drop Evangelism for Purge the wicked in raids. The first change would help this. Making the 100 tier this way provides choices between AOE heals favored in raids and dungeon healing were Grace is appealing for mythics and tank damage.

Final thought. Schism: Change or Replace.. I can't think of something that fits the name thematically. It would have to be something that competes with Grace or Evangelism. Worse case, it doesn't change and players won't take. The mana cost, limited window of effect, and added button make it unappealing and largely untaken as it stands now. Choosing between Evangelism for Schism means that there is one less button to bind to a unique key which helps the key clutter.

--------------
Commentary:
Background philosophy is that talents across rows should compete and that builds of aggregate picks should allow for
1) play style variation
2) contextual/situational value.

The schism comments were a bit harsh but as others have noted, it needs some work (especially if it were to move to the 100 tier). The duration of the buff makes it a poor choice in terms of bandwidth to utilize it. I do like something of a DPS or DPS rotation modifier since we are supposed to have a shadowy damage dealing aspect of our play.
As someone who has no interest in mythic raiding, but is content with WQ, 5 mans and the occasional normal raid...and who enjoys mog-hunting in old instances, working on achievements, and crafting...

Pain points with Disc that this redesign does not address (adequately or at all) or that it makes even worse:

*Feeling like in group content, I spend as much time or more applying atonement as doing anything else. People like to complain that shield spam was boring....With the push to make us stop using PW:R and start using plea - I feel like that's just going to be even worse. Plus, Plea just isn't a very satisfying spell. A single atonement application attached to an irrelevent "heal" with a weak little visual effect and an outsized mana cost...and regardless - you've also removed the incentive for casting smite by turning it's absorb into a talent that's competing against PI - which I honestly can't imagine playing without.

*Extremely tight timing on atonement application, along with the feeling sometimes that I have wasted a huge amount of time and mana applying atonements when my targets get a heal from elsewhere, or the timing wasn't precise enough resulting in doubling back around to the first group. I don't care about anyone's git-gud-noise...such tight design inevitably results in at least occasional errors for no good purpose. We aren't all fortunate enough to be in established raid groups where everyone has a working headset with microphone etc to coordinate on the fly...

*Mana. Why should I still be using Dark Moon Promises? Put it another way - why are we forced to use gear as a band-aid for an obvious problem with a core part of the spec?

*AoE - we have none. Like n o n e. We're supposed to be a pseudo-dps-hybrid. Why was Holy Nova taken from Disc? It doesn't have to interact with atonement. I mostly miss it for the utility in world questing/old instance farming. And I know I'm not alone in that.

Unpopular opinion time:

*I don't like Disc's shadow spells (or the attached "fantasy"). But I know some people do...So I've been happy that it's been kept optional, other than our shadow beastie...and the corruption that has crept into Penance...and now with the new gold trait...

Ok...maybe not quite optional enough for my tastes, but...that said...I'm a little disappointed that I will have to choose between Purge and Evangelism/Grace. Because I feel like for me, the content I do, and the issues I have with the spec - that isn't really a choice - it will always be either Evangelism or Grace - purge will only be usable when soloing which also means I will now be forced to add a shadow spell to my regular rotation.

I'm sure most of the elite raiders who dominate these conversations couldn't care less about that sort of thing...and I know some people really did like the transition of Disc from robed guardians to Priests who dabble in the Void...but I'm equally sure there are other players who feel the same as I do about it - so I'm voicing the opinion.

Also...even for those that don't see the spec on a "fantasy" level in the same way I do...non-competitive talent slots are never a good thing.
you've also removed the incentive for casting smite by turning it's absorb into a talent that's competing against PI - which I honestly can't imagine playing without.

*Extremely tight timing on atonement application, along with the feeling sometimes that I have wasted a huge amount of time and mana applying atonements when my targets get a heal from elsewhere, or the timing wasn't precise enough resulting in doubling back around to the first group. I don't care about anyone's git-gud-noise...such tight design inevitably results in at least occasional errors for no good purpose. We aren't all fortunate enough to be in established raid groups where everyone has a working headset with microphone etc to coordinate on the fly...

*Mana. Why should I still be using Dark Moon Promises? Put it another way - why are we forced to use gear as a band-aid for an obvious problem with a core part of the spec?

Ok...maybe not quite optional enough for my tastes, but...that said...I'm a little disappointed that I will have to choose between Purge and Evangelism/Grace. Because I feel like for me, the content I do, and the issues I have with the spec - that isn't really a choice - it will always be either Evangelism or Grace - purge will only be usable when soloing which also means I will now be forced to add a shadow spell to my regular rotation.

The absorb on baseline smite was put back. The Sanctuary talent only increases it even more.

Mana efficiency is getting a boost, so I don't see your qualm there. Covering a group with atonements should now take less time, so you've got improvement there. And I pointed out above how Purge the Wicked should actually be a decent talent for normal raids in particular.
Thanks for all the feedback. As I mentioned last week, there was a lot of rapid iteration going on so it was hard to give any detailed updates. This build is a more complete set of changes that seems to be going in a good direction, though there are still some issues to work out.

--Talent balancing. In particular, Evangelism is an idea we like, but finding serious competition for it as a raid talent might be hard. It probably needs to be against heavier hitters like Power Infusion (especially if that helps it be less of a one-note cooldown stacking build). There will likely be further iteration on talent arrangement to better accommodate the new additions.

--Mana. The spell whose cost is most important for balance purposes is Plea, because it is now the most efficient way to convert excess mana into Atonements. We reduced the cost so it would make more sense when compared against Shadow Mend and Radiance, but have to keep an eye on whether that leaves mana as a reasonable limiter on how much Atonement you can spread over the course of an encounter.

--Overall Atonement count. The changes in the last build helped fix a lot of mechanical issues, but also added a lot of raw power to the spec, particularly in terms of Atonement spread/uptime. And particularly Evangelism returns a lot of the burst-Atonement coverage that currently dominates Disc raiding. That's not necessarily a problem if everything else about the spec is working well, and it's good to continue having a bit of a niche that Disc is used to in Legion. But as discussed in my first post, if it's as easy to blanket the raid as it is on live, that limits the spec somewhat.

While this is something we'll monitor throughout PTR, especially with more internal and external raid testing, there is definitely a worry that in order to balance the spec at this point, the Atonement transfer % would have to go down, which is the opposite of the stated goal. We don't want to be in that position at the end of PTR when it's harder to make other changes.
This response is very appreciated. Thank you.

My apologies for stepping on any priest toes here. I just feel it's very important to encourage this kind of communication from the team.
--Mana. The spell whose cost is most important for balance purposes is Plea, because it is now the most efficient way to convert excess mana into Atonements. We reduced the cost so it would make more sense when compared against Shadow Mend and Radiance, but have to keep an eye on whether that leaves mana as a reasonable limiter on how much Atonement you can spread over the course of an encounter.


It might be a good idea to try increasing the mana cost of Power Word: Shield (to around 2.5%). That spell is loaded with so much power now after Aegis of Light that it really probably doesn't need to be as cheap as it is and would siphon off a bit of excess mana just to give Disc a lower ceiling of mana to play with.

Similarly Plea could possibly go up to 1.75% or even 2% if its direct healing is increased. The chief reason why it has to be so far from Shadow Mend is its huge healing deficit from Shadow Mend. Alternatively, Shadow Mend could maybe even use a direct throughput reduction now that Penance can be used on allies baseline and Twist of Fate is so easily accessible.

On talents, I think I would like to see PI and Evangelism compete as well, but consider moving Sanctuary up to Evangelism's place because it is the same type of talent as the other two on that row as sort of passive throughput increases to various parts of the spec.
Thanks for the feedback Sigma. As of 28/04/2017 here, in this PTR build, Disc is looking good. Mana cost particularly makes it look a little too good, being honest. I agree with Totallite in that sense.

--Talent balancing. In particular, Evangelism is an idea we like, but finding serious competition for it as a raid talent might be hard. It probably needs to be against heavier hitters like Power Infusion (especially if that helps it be less of a one-note cooldown stacking build). There will likely be further iteration on talent arrangement to better accommodate the new additions.


It will be very hard to make a competitor for Evangelism as you said, it brings back that dominant playstyle (that is not a problem) and allows us to work with a larger number of atonements for reasonable duration, and with the way we scale with Atonement count, it will be hard to find a talent that you would take in a different situation.

The tier it is in now makes it absolutely throttle Purge the Wicked and the only time Grace would be taken is if you had a fight style like Augur, but even then, Evangelism would show dominance for Void phase. (Not to mention, Augur was an incredibly unorthodox fight).

PI's haste will go towards Atonement application, because Haste is reducing GCDs and cast times and whatnot and allows for a larger set of blankets for longer, which reaps more healing - Atonements are only particularly strong in large numbers, that's why you want to reduce overall count - but that's also exactly what Evangelism does. It would still not compete, even though PI is a very strong spell.

[...] but consider moving Sanctuary up to Evangelism's place because it is the same type of talent as the other two on that row as sort of passive throughput increases to various parts of the spec.

Agreed

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