Mistweavers in 7.2.5

Legion Class Development
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Someone mentioned SG stacks reducing the cast time, to instant at max... I don't know about instant, but faster with more stacks would make it easier to use.

It might be cool to have it work the other way too... have it's cast time increase with higher stacks (past like 6 or so) to a max of ~2 seconds at 12 stacks. So you aim to use it at "x" stacks.

I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes it feels like I could start casting SG, go make coffee, and come back before the cast finishes. This makes using it quite clunky. I just wish it either was easier to use, so we could use it more often... or it was more impactful when we used it, so it feels more rewarding to use.
You guys are savage!

...I love it.

There's a lot of fantastic ideas here that I would love to see come to fruition. There's still roughly 6-weeks before 7.2.5 comes out (at least), so I remain hopeful that there's a plan to address some of these issues outside of a 9% Vivify, CD on EF, and -- hold the press, a mana reduction on Rushing Jade Wind! All of this seems rather lackluster. I really like AMA becoming baseline, I like statue becoming baseline, I like the idea of a legendary rework, etc. These are all fantastic ideas that should be discussed during their "How-can-we-ignore-Mistweavers-today" meeting.
05/01/2017 10:53 AMPosted by Hsïnäts
05/01/2017 10:05 AMPosted by Nomally
I can see potential on where big AOE heals could go, but it just sounds like the math does not add up for healing and the amount of mana spent.
I picture it as, raid wide damage incoming...pop mana tea, damage hits... RJW, EF, Then vivs to take advantage of the mastery bonus. Throwing TFT in there as well, to either allow EF to be on the move, or make one of the vivs free.

That is a lot of globals to use however, where another class has probably hit just 1 or 2 button and stabilized the group already...

The range of these spells I think would be an issue for this to really work as well. The cost to do all of that, even with mana tea, and not being able to hit the whole raid or most of it, just hurts.


I'm not sure what the math is for essence font. I can't seem the find the PTR spell power numbers for EF but it seems really strong.

I think you are underevaluating how much prep work goes into other classes for their burst healing. On my druid, I want to Innervate ~8s before damage and spam the hell out of rejuv until I can finish my WG cast 0.2s after raidwide damage hits, then I hit Flourish and Essence. Disc does similar stuff right now, building up Atonements with Rapture/PWR into a giant light's Wrath and Pennance.

Sure sometimes holy priest can just PoH into Sactify into PoH, of the 4 classes I have any knowledge of, at least two of the non MW ones need some sick combos to do their best.

Simply put, if your complaint is that there are good combos in MW that can heal really fast, I think we are in a good place.


Yeah I totally get what you are saying, and I am not saying other heals don't have wind up on combos as well. I am just saying it would potentially take a lot of mana to pull off, and a lot of globals to get the max out of the combo.

So it would have some risk and if not timed perfectly, or coordinated with other healers could all be wasted. Main concern is....even with all that risk/ is the reward high enough for the mana cost?

The consensus on RJW is that it is not worth it. And Chi-Ji will still probably be the best talent by a long shot. So we need more than a RJW with lower mana to help us out right now.
05/01/2017 04:30 PMPosted by Nomally
05/01/2017 10:53 AMPosted by Hsïnäts
...

I'm not sure what the math is for essence font. I can't seem the find the PTR spell power numbers for EF but it seems really strong.

I think you are underevaluating how much prep work goes into other classes for their burst healing. On my druid, I want to Innervate ~8s before damage and spam the hell out of rejuv until I can finish my WG cast 0.2s after raidwide damage hits, then I hit Flourish and Essence. Disc does similar stuff right now, building up Atonements with Rapture/PWR into a giant light's Wrath and Pennance.

Sure sometimes holy priest can just PoH into Sactify into PoH, of the 4 classes I have any knowledge of, at least two of the non MW ones need some sick combos to do their best.

Simply put, if your complaint is that there are good combos in MW that can heal really fast, I think we are in a good place.


Yeah I totally get what you are saying, and I am not saying other heals don't have wind up on combos as well. I am just saying it would potentially take a lot of mana to pull off, and a lot of globals to get the max out of the combo.

So it would have some risk and if not timed perfectly, or coordinated with other healers could all be wasted. Main concern is....even with all that risk/ is the reward high enough for the mana cost?

The consensus on RJW is that it is not worth it. And Chi-Ji will still probably be the best talent by a long shot. So we need more than a RJW with lower mana to help us out right now.


Yeah, that clarification sold me on what you were saying. I agree, spending like 100k mana on something that MIGHT happen is a little higher opportunity cost than anyone else.
05/01/2017 05:55 PMPosted by Hsïnäts
I agree, spending like 100k mana on something that MIGHT happen is a little higher opportunity cost than anyone else.

I would say "Disc" but...well...they're actually getting fixed. (Can't have minmax priests playing Holy for TWO whole raid tiers, after all.)
We're looking into a some of the various things mentioned on this thread and others, for an upcoming PTR build:

--We understand the complaint about losing your Essence Font channel due to movement, now that it has a cooldown. Going straight to "Essence Font can always be cast while moving" is still the sort of thing we want to be careful about. Cast-while-moving isn't something that should proliferate too much outside of special buffs or spells that have that as a main purpose, but it's an option that we may try out on PTR.

--We'll buff Life Cocoon to better account for the large HP inflation in Legion.

--We're going to try a version of Refreshing Jade Wind that no longer has the Essence Font hook, and is much more efficient simply based on its own healing. That likely means making it cheaper rather than stronger, and probably means a longer cooldown or duration than what it has now. Both so that it's less disruptive by using fewer GCDs, and so that it's not a limitless way of pouring mana into smart healing. It should be a basic rotational option for a constant healing boost, with a positional factor.

--We're going to buff Rising Thunder, initially simply using the same knob as in beta of changing Rising Sun Kick's cost. That version of fistweaving was generally popular (among the crowd that wants something with that much complexity), and possibly only fell away because it was never tuned back up enough to account for the loss of the beta version of Black Flame.

Our overall approach to Mistweaver in 7.2.5 is more focused on looking at specific issues like these, rather than any kind of deep overhaul. We also expect that the overall package of changes so far effects an increase to the total healing power of the spec (which was intended), and of course can do further tuning as we get a more solid idea of how much that is.
Thank you for checking in, Sigma. We really appreciate the attention and insight.
05/01/2017 08:27 AMPosted by Kakarõt
I agree with everything you've said in this post, I just want to bring up something about this point. While damage reduction has never been a part of our kit, our artifact weapon is the staff that Emperor Shaohao used to shroud Pandaria in mists for protection. From the official website: "Emperor Shaohao embarked on a series of trials, taking with him the ancient staff Sheilun. Afterwards, he used his newfound wisdom to become part of the land. He made Pandaria into a separate continent and enshrouded it in mist to protect it."

See, that sounds to me like a giant Life Cocoon (absorb), not a Power Word: Barrier (DR). And it's also connected to Shaohao and Sheilun, not to our characters themselves.

It would make a lot of sense, both in the lore and in our gameplay, for Sheilun's mists to play some kind of AoE damage-absorption role. The way they work - slowly dribbling out into little blobs on the ground that we have to gather back up and throw at someone to heal them - is f'ing weird. Like...why is my staff leaking? Is there a cream for this?

But damage reduction is wrong for MWs, and attaching it to Revival would make it even wronger.
you literally posted nothing of significance sigma

everything you post about you are missing the bigger picture of

buffing life cocoon's amount doesnt solve it's problem

changing RJW? cool, something no one wanted

and can you just like replace rising thunder, it's not fun at all and does nothing but be a noob trap
Please take a look at Chi Wave. Can you make it synergize with something? Make it passive and proc a healing bolt off of our hot ticks. Or make it increase the healing of the next hot cast on that player (total of 4) by 10%. Or make it reduce the mana cost of enveloping mist by 5% per bounce. Or make it gain stacks (still one click to dump) up to 16 bounces, 8 healing, 8 damange when your hots heal so the GCD is worthwhile to press the spell.

Or make it apply the Essence font hot *no bounces*

so many options here please dont let this spell rot again like you did in legion.

I like this spell and am tired of being forced into Chi Burst. Please give me some options.
I would second looking at Chi Wave. It has NO use in any situation ever right now. Maybe it could spawn extra Chi Waves through it hitting targets with EnV or similar, or the suggestions above.

I would also BEG you to PLEASE make Mana Tea baseline. EVERY mistweaver needs Mana Tea for raid situations. Every. Single. One. Put anything there. I don't care what.
05/01/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sigma
Our overall approach to Mistweaver in 7.2.5 is more focused on looking at specific issues like these, rather than any kind of deep overhaul. We also expect that the overall package of changes so far effects an increase to the total healing power of the spec (which was intended), and of course can do further tuning as we get a more solid idea of how much that is.


Does this mean there's zero chance of AMA becoming baseline (or at least PvE accessible)?

I would argue that making AMA baseline wouldn't count as a "deep overhaul" as the ability is still in the game, just limited to PvP. It was also an iconic part of the spec. It makes the spec feel different from the others. It's important.

It's not like you'd have to do that much to give it to us in PvE. It's still there, just locked away behind a PvP talent. It's not like it was completely pruned and no longer in the game files.

You could even make it a talent rather than baseline. We could trade mistwrap for it if the combination would be deemed too powerful (even though it apparently isn't in PvP where the combination has more potential than PvE). Also it would make sense to have the "mistweaving" talent of AMA on the same tier as the fistweaving spirit of the crane. Lifecycles would still be there for the people who prefer to not use the traditional soothing mist style, but don't want to fistweave either.

Also, even if AMA is out, what about Sheilun's Gift? Have the devs discussed the possibility of making it instant cast? Or a faster cast? It feels super awkward to have a big emergency burst heal on a really slow cast (especially on a spec that was originally all about instant casts and fast paced gameplay).
I don't like saying this but I might actually quit if MW aren't fixed this patch.
If all MW are getting is a band-aid, it's going to be another tier of sitting on the mythic bench. No thanks.

Here are some ideas fix what is broken. They're collectively probably too strong but hopefully we can see at least some of this.

  • Viv is too weak without UT. That can easily be fixed. in addition to the 9% buffing, I propose UT healing is now baseline for viv. Instead, when UT procs, you reduce the cost of Viv by 20-40%. This would majorly fix mana issues as well as viv's non UT throughput.
  • Effuse even with new traits is bad. It's kit function is weak and it heals too little. How about if you cast eff on a SM target, eff is instant and doesn't break channel. Also SM should be useable moving. This gives us part of our old kit, a compromise that would help SM and eff become much stronger as the low cost low throughput end of our kit.
  • I want to get into ReM further in stat scaling. I'll just say I think the dancing mists effect should be buffed a bit. This spell isn't doing enough to blanket the raid, and isn't doing enough to keep UT going, which are it's 2 big incentives for casting on CD.
  • EnM is weak. It isn't worth it when most of it will be overheals. Even with ToS tier shaving costs, the cast is too long. How about we make the healing effect of Ovyd's wrap, where it spreads to other players, a baseline. Ovyd's would now instead make EnM transfer to another player at full hp, the same way ReM does. This makes EnM more interesting to cast, and it would improve Ovyd's for raids.
  • I like Life Cocoon but it's absorb is underwhelming. The spell works more like lay on hands than a damage reduction CD, which is almost always what the raid actually needs in mythic. I would increase the absorb by 1.5-2 times, and instead of +50% hots, DR of 10-15% for 12 seconds. With sticking EvM and RM on a target, 50% to hots becomes overhealing anyway, and MW are in DIRE need of external DR.
  • The EF no-spam change is okay, but follow through. EF should be doing a lot more with the HoT baseline, not just comboed with RJW, and it needs TFT movement to be baked in. Doubly so because no spamming means if a channel is broken by mechanics, your healing from EF is going to be ruined. I would say instead have TFT double the range or number of bolts it shoots out.
  • Sheilun's Gift should be instant cast. Seriously. Or at least a GCD, I mean come on, 2 seconds for a mostly single target heal is so bad to cast. I'm happy if I can find even one spot for it in a fight.
  • On 15 talents. If Chi-wave is here to stay, buff it. How about instead of bouncing 7 times, it bounces every half second until the spell is off CD, for MW only that is. It would be small in PvP where it's already used, but in raids it would be a big deal. Now instead of one choice, we can pick between sustained heal/dps, or a quick burst of heal/dps, making this tier more interesting.
  • Combine RT and SotC to fix the 45 options. Mist wrap is okay right now but could be tuned. Since I think SM should be channeled while moving baseline, how about MW does something else? One idea would be to have a lingering channel of SM on a target when you switch off, i.e. SM healing keeps going for 5 seconds after you move it. LC is okay if you fix EvM, but otherwise needs to be buffed to also increase it's effect.
  • JSS should work like unison spaulders and simply heal someone who is not your SM target. Healing your same target isn't very good. Have US simply work the same way. With that SM can be flying around the raid, making it more interesting, especially combining the eff insta cast proposal because you'd have 3 SM targets you could use eff between. Chi-ji is fine just fix it's bugs. RJW is being looked at.
  • Since RT should be in SotC, I would have it replaced with dps-to-healing, same as disc priests and the old kit. This makes it better to fistweave in raid, you won't destroy throughput to get the mana of dpsing. Also I like FT as baseline, so why not add something in to further improve SM healing, which would be the counter to what MT currently is. MT is the mana talent, new FT would be no-dps throughput, new RT would be FW throughput. MT in general could also be longer.
  • On to stat scaling, as our throughput right now is really poor and scaling is to blame. For mastery, I would have it improve the HoT of spells by x%. I hate that current mastery only helps the weaker half of our kit.
  • Haste is the other weak stat. I would fix a couple things with it. First, ReM and EF CDs are based on haste. This fits with most other kits in the game, no idea why ReM isn't already like this. Combined with a buff to DM, this would make raid coverage better. Second, I would add an additional effect to HoT ticks, similar to UT, to make more HoT ticks desirable.
  • Also we need UT stacks. Period. CONTROL FOR HEALERS BLIZZARD

    It's something you have said over and over and over again.
    05/01/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sigma
    --We're going to buff Rising Thunder, initially simply using the same knob as in beta of changing Rising Sun Kick's cost. That version of fistweaving was generally popular (among the crowd that wants something with that much complexity), and possibly only fell away because it was never tuned back up enough to account for the loss of the beta version of Black Flame.


    You're going to have buff RT more than just changing RSK back to 1% mana. t20 2pc is going to need to proc off damaging spells, because t20 4pc completely invalidates RT as a playstyle. Why would I fistweave to reset TFT, when I can spam effuse, and reset tft's that way?

    The other important part of t20 4pc other than resetting TFT's, is the fact that the 4pc also gives you more celestial breath healing if you don't talent into RT. So isn't about time we delete the silly 30 second lockout of celestial breath for RT? The game has changed so much, and that restriction isn't needed anymore.
    Sigma, thanks for upping upping the quality of your post today. I hope you can keep communication at this level. Would you be able to name the issues in this thread you are referring to in the psych notes for the next PTR build?

    As you mentioned, mistweaver as a spec isn't BAD it just has some issues. Please keep in touch with us so that we can iron out the kinks in an otherwise enjoyable spec.
    most of these ideas are solid. I dont think EF needs movement while casting. thats what TFT is for and I think it doesnt need that level of power. It should maybe be less punishing for less experienced players though. That I will agree with. I do like it in its current form though.

    A possibility that might be better is a shorter cast.
    05/01/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sigma
    We're looking into a some of the various things mentioned on this thread and others,

    Thank you!

    05/01/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sigma
    Going straight to "Essence Font can always be cast while moving" is still the sort of thing we want to be careful about. Cast-while-moving isn't something that should proliferate too much outside of special buffs or spells that have that as a main purpose, but it's an option that we may try out on PTR.

    I understand the concern, but I'd ask you to understand that we're monks. Mobility is a core element of our "class fantasy". We're still supposed to be the second (grr) most mobile class in the game, but we've been spending an awful lot of time bolted to the floor.

    (There's something horribly wrong when mages with the right boots can run around casting anything they want, but monks are turrets.)

    Another option, though, which would address your concern, fit with the monk flavour, and possibly even be fun, is to convert Essence Font to a "mana per second" model like the old Soothing Mist while also making the cooldown proportional to the channel duration. With that kind of flexibility in place, you could even increase the maximum channel duration, which would address some of the concerns people have about burst healing situations.

    05/01/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sigma
    --We'll buff Life Cocoon to better account for the large HP inflation in Legion.

    This is appreciated, but what's your plan for keeping it at the right power level? Unless you're planning on changing the item level formula, health is going to continue to increase faster than spellpower. Have you considered making Life Cocoon scale with the monk's health instead of his/her spellpower?

    05/01/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sigma
    --We're going to buff Rising Thunder, initially simply using the same knob as in beta of changing Rising Sun Kick's cost. That version of fistweaving was generally popular (among the crowd that wants something with that much complexity), and possibly only fell away because it was never tuned back up enough to account for the loss of the beta version of Black Flame.

    Even if Rising Sun Kick were free, Rising Thunder wouldn't compete with Focused Thunder because its effectiveness scales inversely with incoming damage and movement requirements. It's at its best during downtime when you're just meleeing for mana and getting a ton of RSK resets; it's nearly useless during periods of heavy damage when you can't spare the GCD, and completely useless whenever you have to move out of melee range because fistweavers still get hit with ranged mechanics.

    If you really want to make it work as a separate talent, you're going to need to tack a heal on it. And I don't mean the old "it might extend your HoTs a bit, if the target actually manages to survive and hit the tank with a melee attack before RM jumps and EM wears off". It would have to be a real heal, something that's worth casting instead of Vivify.

    Otherwise, just roll it into SoTC.

    05/01/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sigma
    --We're going to try a version of Refreshing Jade Wind that no longer has the Essence Font hook, and is much more efficient simply based on its own healing. That likely means making it cheaper rather than stronger, and probably means a longer cooldown or duration than what it has now. Both so that it's less disruptive by using fewer GCDs, and so that it's not a limitless way of pouring mana into smart healing. It should be a basic rotational option for a constant healing boost, with a positional factor.

    This sounds nice. It will have to be very cheap (probably free) to compete with Chi'Ji, which is free, has no positional requirement, uses almost no GCDs, and can be timed when it's most useful.

    Have you considered making RJW do damage again? The design seems to be aimed at fistweavers. Even a nominal amount of damage would make it more attractive for us.
    05/01/2017 07:36 PMPosted by Sigma
    Our overall approach to Mistweaver in 7.2.5 is more focused on looking at specific issues like these, rather than any kind of deep overhaul.


    Look at the unparalleled level of ignorance here. You haven't realised that the issues people are bringing up aren't SMALL issues. They're HUGE issues. And there isn't a small number of them, there's a LOT of them.

    For the 1 billionth, six-hundred and seventy-nine millionth, eight hundred and fifty thousandth godamn time... removing a class' BEST abilities and buffing their WORST abilities ISN'T BALANCE. You're JUST nerfing them. That's all you're doing. Because those terrible abilities that you're "buffing" STILL never get used. Even worse, you end up with a boring class with no strengths and no weaknesses and everyone just feels bad for playing their spec in general.

    And yet you ADD abilities like Deeprooted (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=238122/deep-rooted) into the game right after taking away Mistwalk. I honestly can't believe the dev team. You're on some serious mental inhibitors with this one tbh.

    P.S. Don't say things like, "we're buffing refreshing jade wind by reducing the mana cost" when you just stealth nerfed the healing it puts out a few hotfixes ago anyway. No one noticed except me because I actually used it in BGs but it was stealth nerfed and heals about 45% less in PvP. So, when you nerf the overall healing but also reduce the mana cost then it's almost always just worse. And, as other people pointed out, it'd still be worse than the other options (but yeah, nice "Buff" guys).

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