Why do we still have race/class restrictions?

General Discussion
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05/17/2017 03:32 PMPosted by Necrophobia
05/17/2017 03:04 PMPosted by Zahrad
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Putting aside the political insensitivity from that comment.... You don't feel like you're kinda comparing apples and oranges there? Eh slick?


Nope..

Because that's basically what you're asking for. If a undead "feels" or "identifies" as a paladin then you think it should be ok for them to be a paladin even though it goes against the lore of the game.


Ask Sir Zeliek, however if it offends you, you could always give them the mechanics and call them something edgy, like "blackguard"? Honestly, if the Lore gives them a reason, you can have anything.
05/17/2017 03:34 PMPosted by Necrophobia
05/17/2017 03:06 PMPosted by Flashtrigger
...

I bet you're fun at parties.


At least I go to parties..


Ohhh snap!! We have a cool kid over here!!! Quick everybody, hide your lunch money!!!
05/17/2017 03:25 PMPosted by Zahrad
the fact that this comes up so often says that there are at the very least a handful of people who SEVERLY want this to happen.

That's the issue, Want vs. Need.

People will always want, but they will never want what they need. Nor will they always know what they need maybe different from what they want.

I WANT Tauren Warlocks. The Grimtotem have them, there have been Grimtotem refugees coming into Thunderbluff who are just looking to live out the rest of their days in peace. I always figured that they would look cool, unique and hold a desire that the other races rarely could fill (similar to Darkspear Troll Locks and the Loas.)

Enter the Fel-Bloodtotems. Yep. Now I really WANT Tauren Warlocks. Because there are refugee Grimtotems that maybe have warlocks mixed in who could teach the Taurens of Thunderbluff who are willing to learn; there isn't enough past, present, and desired future lore to support the idea of there being trust built between the two tribes; and while one being overtly active in the lore, the other, a break off; the refugees are a very small group has been predetermine in lore, and in game to just be forgotten and live their own way peacefully now; which pretty much kills the idea for Tauren Warlocks.

Even with Magatha of all lore characters and even Taurens... joins our side to fight against the Legion (and we still allow her to have a WMD that she has held onto since Cata) throws more questions then desires into the mix.
05/17/2017 03:41 PMPosted by Doomcookies
05/17/2017 03:25 PMPosted by Zahrad
the fact that this comes up so often says that there are at the very least a handful of people who SEVERLY want this to happen.

That's the issue, Want vs. Need.

People will always want, but they will never want what they need. Nor will they always know what they need maybe different from what they want.

I WANT Tauren Warlocks. The Grimtotem have them, there have been Grimtotem refugees coming into Thunderbluff who are just looking to live out the rest of their days in peace. I always figured that they would look cool, unique and hold a desire that the other races rarely could fill (similar to Darkspear Troll Locks and the Loas.)

Enter the Fel-Bloodtotems. Yep. Now I really WANT Tauren Warlocks. Because there are refugee Grimtotems that maybe have warlocks mixed in who could teach the Taurens of Thunderbluff who are willing to learn; there isn't enough past, present, and desired future lore to support the idea of there being trust built between the two tribes; and while one being overtly active in the lore, the other, a break off - a very small group has been predetermine to just be forgotten and live their own way peacefully now.

Even with Magatha of all lore characters and even Taurens... join our side to fight against the Legion (and we still allow her to have a WMD that she has held onto since Cata) throws more questions then desires into the mix.


You are aware this is a video game right? What possible "need" is there?
05/17/2017 03:30 PMPosted by Zahrad
Why exactly is this a problem again? If everyone wants to play a blood elf or undead or human..... why does that affect you? Truly your game experience isn't ruined when someone else is playing it "wrong"


Thank you. You just defeated yourself. Good job.

If the race of the players is so irrelevant, then it doesn't matter what the race restrictions are, now does it?

Want to be this class? Great! Want to be Horde or Alliance? Okay, then these are the races you get to choose from.

Hey, it doesn't matter what race anyone is, right?
05/17/2017 03:43 PMPosted by Zahrad
What possible "need" is there?

The need is to progress with the current, so that we can advance in the story, to see it to it's end and go forth from there.

Ideas like removing race restrictions are just side steps. Wants, desires. No real attachment to the game and the story as a whole.

Maybe in the far future, things maybe set into motion. In the Near future, it is simply a silly idea.

Like a child wanting a candy bar to eat instead of needing to eat their veggies.
05/17/2017 03:45 PMPosted by Loncis
05/17/2017 03:30 PMPosted by Zahrad
Why exactly is this a problem again? If everyone wants to play a blood elf or undead or human..... why does that affect you? Truly your game experience isn't ruined when someone else is playing it "wrong"


Thank you. You just defeated yourself. Good job.

If the race of the players is so irrelevant, then it doesn't matter what the race restrictions are, now does it?

Want to be this class? Great! Want to be Horde or Alliance? Okay, then these are the races you get to choose from.

Hey, it doesn't matter what race anyone is, right?


But that argument goes both ways. I am asking how is it affecting you if no one plays the races that are "supposed" to be druids or shamans?
05/17/2017 03:36 PMPosted by Zahrad
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Nope..

Because that's basically what you're asking for. If a undead "feels" or "identifies" as a paladin then you think it should be ok for them to be a paladin even though it goes against the lore of the game.


Ask Sir Zeliek, however if it offends you, you could always give them the mechanics and call them something edgy, like "blackguard"? Honestly, if the Lore gives them a reason, you can have anything.


To be fair....this is technically what they did with Tauren,Blood Elf, and Draenei Paladins.....they are Sunwalkers, Blood Knights, and Vindicators respectively.

And this is a fair way to bring about more classes to more races. As you said, make up a new group for the undead, and just use the paladin kit for it.

EDIT: and for the record, I am for lifting restrictions on specific race/class combos, but not all of them. Keep Druids, Shamans, Demon Hunters limited.
05/17/2017 01:46 AMPosted by Shadina
If Blizz wants to label a Night Elf with paladin THEMED abilities, give it plate, and call it a Moon Warrior, I'd be fine with it! It's not a paladin. It's a warrior of Elune! Fine! Go for it!


I suppose a night elf could renounce Elune and the moon as a false idol of worship and come to the Light, who then goes about spreading the word to other night elves, you could have night elf paladins.

But in a similar way, tell me you'd be ok with dwarf and blood elf druids too?
05/17/2017 03:43 PMPosted by Zahrad
What possible "need" is there?

The need is to progress with the current, so that we can advance in the story, to see it to to it's end and go forth from there.

Ideas like removing race restrictions are just side steps. Wants, desires. No real attachment to the game as a whole.


I was under the impression that after Wrath, the story shifted from a grand narrative against an ultimate evil to a personal narrative... Sure there are obviously evil enemies but there has also been a lot of grey being muddled about....

like Sylvannas for instance. Her story seems to have grown more like a personal narrative in a vast world where she is making morally dubious choices for the benefit of her own faction, making her a more complex character.... Sure we have obviously good and obviously evil archetypes in both the alliance and the horde, but all in all, the narrative has shifted more towards realism of the choices we make as individuals... and having to come together besides the differences to take on an "ultimate evil" if Medivh's mom is to be believed >.>
05/17/2017 12:44 PMPosted by Enygmah
05/17/2017 12:33 AMPosted by Zahrad
Now, I know most of you are probably going to hide behind "Lore" as a way to justify why you are being so vocal about wanting to prevent other people from ruining your "immersion". But I'd like to point out two things about Lore:

1) As you all probably know, Blizzard is more than willing to change Lore to suit them whenever they feel like it, and there is nothing we can do about it.


And when the lore is changed, there is usually a compelling reason provided to why this is. I am all for class/race combinations so long as there are good reasons why those combinations exist. This is in some ways an RPG and lore still counts for something.

05/17/2017 12:33 AMPosted by Zahrad
2) From a Lore standpoint, it makes even less sense considering that both the Alliance and the Horde have evolved into global superpowers with influence reaching every corner of Azeroth and beyond. When you have Tauren and blood Elven paladin trainers standing around in Ogrimmar then it makes very little sense why Orcs and Tauren can't learn to be paladins. The same goes for humans with draenei or dwarven shaman trainers in the Eastern Kingdoms.


With regards to Orc paladins, what would be the reason for this? Where in the history of orcs has connection to the light been established to suggest that they could be paladins? Questions like this need to be asked and answered before these class/race combinations can be established.

05/17/2017 12:33 AMPosted by Zahrad
Now you can cry the whole "No true <insert favorite race here> would play <insert class here>" but that's all rather subjective and open to interpretation right? I mean it's not like we wrote the source material.If you're really angry about how undead can't be paladins like Sir Zeliek then just keep the mechanics and give them an edgy name like "blackguard" or "swordwraith" as a Lore excuse.... looking at you Sunwalker.

Finally, I'd like to address why exactly are people for warlock race restrictions? The whole argument seems to be that "no true <favorite race>" can physically be one either for cultural/ or physical reasons. Which is completely assanine, seeing as being a playable warlock in the first place is already breaking Lore. There are few to no Warlock heroes in Lore, the majority of friendly warlock NPCs are either class trainers or on their way to dooming Azeroth one way or another. In case you haven't noticed, warlocks aren't accepted, they're barely tolerated because they're useful... there's a reason why their trainers are usually in the basement of a seedy inn or in the darkest, most isolated part of Ogrimmar.


The Cleft of Shadow is not some isolated corner of Orgimmar. It's a central point. Anyone teleporting into Orgrimmar is teleported there. And the warlocks are placed right next to mages.

05/17/2017 12:33 AMPosted by Zahrad
Hell, ask the Iron Horde about what happened to their Warlock trainers back in MoP? Point being is, being unable to be a lock because "your culture forbids it" is completely mute, since everyone barring the blood elves and undead would probably forbid it... and yet they still have edgy young mages practicing the Fel in the back alleys of seedy taverns...


Then why are there no tauren or draenei warlocks? Notice I said draenei and not eredar.


Go to Highmountain you see a lot of Demonic tauren, you get a demonology/demohunter tauren for one world quest and a female tauren warlock as a rare.

As for "Dranei" warlocks they are in shattrah and in shadowmoon valley in Draenor. Yes even Tauren mages in outland in Blade spire mountains. Its not like there aren't any of these race/class combos in game. If you use disguises you see how cool each race would play out.
...

Ask Sir Zeliek, however if it offends you, you could always give them the mechanics and call them something edgy, like "blackguard"? Honestly, if the Lore gives them a reason, you can have anything.


To be fair....this is technically what they did with Tauren,Blood Elf, and Draenei Paladins.....they are Sunwalkers, Blood Knights, and Vindicators respectively.

And this is a fair way to bring about more classes to more races. As you said, make up a new group for the undead, and just use the paladin kit for it.

EDIT: and for the record, I am for lifting restrictions on specific race/class combos, but not all of them. Keep Druids, Shamans, Demon Hunters limited.


I mean mechanically it make sense why only the elves get DHs, due to that stupid double jump and gliding ability they get.... which i am NOT bitter about.... but what about druids and shamans? Just give the belfs recolored nelf animal forms, the rest of the horde gets recolored Tauren or troll for
S, and give the alliance recolored worgen forms?
05/17/2017 03:53 PMPosted by Zahrad
I was under the impression that after Wrath, the story shifted from a grand narrative against an ultimate evil to a personal narrative...

And each of the narratives of each character connect as a whole; good and bad. Each progress towards forward to the singular point at the end.

Now if the personal narrative and growth was allowed as well for the player characters, then you would have a more compelling argument. Such as, we the player make choices within the game to effect our own personal experiences with in the story based on own morals to decide an outcome of an encounter.

I.E: Quest: Kill <said group> cause of (reasons).
Player encounters said group.
Player is confronted by <named NPC>
Kill or Save group?
Player chooses desired action.
Outcome happens cause of said Actions.

This would be a true personal narrative. What is currently in place is a pseudo form of personal narrative. We are learning more about each major and few minor NPCs with in the whole scheme of things; we are tagging along for the ride; and for us to learn more of said story arch we need to follow / complete the stories.
05/17/2017 03:53 PMPosted by Zahrad
I was under the impression that after Wrath, the story shifted from a grand narrative against an ultimate evil to a personal narrative...

And each of the narratives of each character connect as a whole; good and bad. Each progress towards towards the singular point at the end.

Now if the personal narrative and growth was allowed as well for the player characters, then you would have a more compelling argument. Such as, we the player make choices with in the game to effect our own personal experiences with in the story based on own morals.

I.E: Quest: Kill <said group> cause of (reasons).
Player encounters said group.
Player is confronted by <named NPC>
Kill or Save group?
Player chooses desired action.
Outcome happens cause of said Actions.

This would be a true personal narrative. What is currently in place is a pseudo form of personal narrative. We are learning more about each major and few minor NPCs with in the whole scheme of things; we are tagging along for the ride; and for use to learn more of said story arch we need to follow / complete the stories.


Yes, but that'll turn WoW into a bioware game and as such will completely change the gameplay, we know that it is a psuedo-personal narrative, and that's part of WoW's charm.

The point I am making is that WoW's Lore is not its main selling point anymore.... it's gameplay.... I mean I love killing entire villages of quillboars and murlocs but that shouldn't be possible Lorewise.... Not counting the sheer trauma and battle fatigue dealt with having to massacre so many enemies but also the fact that Lorewise, they should be considered a serious threat than just "low level trash"
05/17/2017 01:48 PMPosted by Flashtrigger
05/17/2017 01:35 PMPosted by Zahrad
First off, please refrain from such real world terms here...

Secondly, are you insinuating that every single Draenei will follow your thought pattern? This is an entire group of people, you can't just insinuate that all of them will think the same, that's called stereotyping.


That's just it. Writing characters is based off of real-world behavior. That's what makes stories good. It's called relatable characterization, which any writer needs to appeal to in order to make their audience engaged. Do you really think a -certain- group of people would be okay with adopting the philosophies and tools that were used to literally wipe them out?

Why should draenei be any different, just because they're fictional. If ANYTHING writing them as embracing fel-magic despite what it has done to them is disrespectful to their character, which yes, matters if you want to be a quality writer.

Maybe even disrespectful to the real-world event if you wanna take it that far. I'm not one of those people so I can't speak for them.


Actually this happens in real life a lot. You know the Holocaust? Do you think they killed all the scientists and erased all the research since it was immoral? No In fact the US took these scientists and made them work for us and they even contributed to landing us on the moon with there help. It is not something strange to use enemies knowledge against them, this does happen in real life and it wouldn't be strange for an advanced ancient civilization to do this especially after there revered Naaru advocate for Illidan (a demon infested individual). We also see the Leader of the Dranei, Velen, feel sad about offing his demonic son; which leaves room for a redemption to eredar/ at least trying to forgive his son and his son bringing along a few eredar to his alliances. The lore is being written to include such a drastic change in thought, much like how the night elve's starting to be ok with arcane magics (especially being allied to mages).

If anything dranei warlocks and demon hunters (with eredar skin) are a good likelyhood to happen depending on how Argus goes.
Because Horde races apart from BElves would vanish from existence if they could be any class.

Lore is also a factor. Draenei warlocks and Undead pallies would make no sense at all.
05/17/2017 04:24 PMPosted by Targon
Because Horde races apart from BElves would vanish from existence if they could be any class.

Lore is also a factor. Draenei warlocks and Undead pallies would make no sense at all.


You know I keep hearing this argument a lot here.... I have two things to ask:

1) Would YOU immediately change all your classes to blood elves if you could? If not then why are you so worried about everyone else?

2) If everyone started playing blood elf, what's it to you?
...

The same few people?


To be fair, the vast majority of players are probably indifferent, or at the very least not as devoted to either maintaining race restrictions or removing them..... the fact that this comes up so often says that there are at the very least a handful of people who SEVERLY want this to happen.


So, Blizzard should invest the development resources to redo the whole class/race system, including the possible complete updating of the worgen, panda and goblin starting zones, to cater to a handful of people?
05/17/2017 03:58 PMPosted by Zahrad
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To be fair....this is technically what they did with Tauren,Blood Elf, and Draenei Paladins.....they are Sunwalkers, Blood Knights, and Vindicators respectively.

And this is a fair way to bring about more classes to more races. As you said, make up a new group for the undead, and just use the paladin kit for it.

EDIT: and for the record, I am for lifting restrictions on specific race/class combos, but not all of them. Keep Druids, Shamans, Demon Hunters limited.


I mean mechanically it make sense why only the elves get DHs, due to that stupid double jump and gliding ability they get.... which i am NOT bitter about.... but what about druids and shamans? Just give the belfs recolored nelf animal forms, the rest of the horde gets recolored Tauren or troll for
S, and give the alliance recolored worgen forms?


For druids, its a fact of respect for nature. High Elves looked down on Druids prior to the Shattering, and being the epitome of pride, can see them still having that same disdain for their teachings and magics. Orcs are destructive (see Ashenvale) and I can see the Cenarion Circle saying strictly "no" to them. Undead are considered an Abberation to them so that right there screams no. Goblins, are like Orcs, they are destructive and care not about the environment (see Azshara).

Thats just for Horde. Draenei aren't interested in the magics of Nature, since they are believers in the Light. Gnomes are Descendants from Mimiron and the mecha-gnomes, and are more about the machinations than they are nature. Worgen they worked into the Scythe of Elune and kind of made that work...kind of. Humans....see Orc and Goblin. They are destructive. and Dwarf....i honestly could see potentially being druids.

Why not Pandaren is one i don't really have an answer to.

For Shamans....thats a tricky one as its a connection with the elements. Undead...Again, abberations against the natural order. Blood Elves are completely drawn into the arcane as it is what sustains them, so i can see why they wouldn't go to another source for their power, such as the elements (should of said this too with Druids).

Humans, i could see getting shamans, as we have seen with the Twilights Hammer, it is feasible. Gnomes, see druid argument i guess? Can't really think of a reason. Worgen, see Humans. Night Elves are one I am surprised dont have access yet.

Overall, there are rhyme and reasons why we don't open up restrictions, some simply do NOT make sense to make. But, if you make a compelling enough story to fit in (see Dwarf Shamans), then there is no reason to restrict classes.

Only one I am purely against is Draenei Warlocks. Draenei are simply against Fel magic and Demons. No if's and's or but's about it. Velen just wouldn't allow his people to follow the magic that destroyed his people. It is that simple.
05/17/2017 04:31 PMPosted by Ratsmats
...

To be fair, the vast majority of players are probably indifferent, or at the very least not as devoted to either maintaining race restrictions or removing them..... the fact that this comes up so often says that there are at the very least a handful of people who SEVERLY want this to happen.


So, Blizzard should invest the development resources to redo the whole class/race system, including the possible complete updating of the worgen, panda and goblin starting zones, to cater to a handful of people?


They don't really have to revamp the Cata areas if that's too much trouble, just have the goblins spawn at Ogrimmar and the worgen spawn at stormwind or darnassas.... Plus, I am pretty sure that more people will enjoy it, as everyone will be trying out race/class combos that they always wanted....

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