Feral Druid Changes in 7.3.0

Class Development
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I've scrolled through every page of this thread to find real feedback on the the PTR builds. Why so few?
07/31/2017 07:27 AMPosted by Ðjinzen
I've scrolled through every page of this thread to find real feedback on the the PTR builds. Why so few?


What are you talking about? Feedback has been given. The changes are good.
07/31/2017 06:08 PMPosted by Kraineth
07/31/2017 07:27 AMPosted by Ðjinzen
I've scrolled through every page of this thread to find real feedback on the the PTR builds. Why so few?


What are you talking about? Feedback has been given. The changes are good.


Point them to me, please. The only legit PTR review I've seen is by Shokanu on page 7 of this thread. Thanks bro. The rest is just theorycraft and suggestions. And I know Shokanu as a "white night" type of poster for the current druid design, so I've got his feedback on reserve. I haven't searched Reddit, though so I don't know what's going on there.

It doesn't matter now I guess. After searching PTR feedback and finding nothing of value, i've decided to install the PTR on my external USB drive because my 128 SDD is not enough to hold it.
according to mmo-champion's data-mining of the latest ptr build (Build 24727):

Bloodtalons: Casting Regrowth or Entangling Roots causes your next two melee abilities to deal 20% increased damage for their full duration. Feral Druid - Level 100 Talent. (awesome change)

Savage Roar: Finishing move that grants 15% increased damage while in Cat Form. Lasts longer per combo point: 1 point : 12 seconds 2 points: 18 seconds 3 points: 24 seconds 4 points: 30 seconds 5 points: 36 seconds Feral Druid - Level 90 Talent. 40 Energy. 100 yd range. Instant. (no longer read "to your Cat Form attacks for their full duration " does it mean it won't snapshot anymore?)
Savage Roar does not snapshot on the PTR. Your bleed damage goes up immediately when you cast the buff, down when it falls off.

This might change the priority list so that SR is a little higher. Currently (at least the way I play), a higher snapshot Rip takes priority over SR, even if SR is about to fall off. Now you would probably want to cast SR in some of those instances, would depend how long SR would be down for.

I also wonder what this will do to the opener. If you do
Rake -> SR -> AF -> Shred to 5 -> Rip -> Shred to 5 -> Regrowth -> Rip (if SR hasn't fallen off)
that might result in a lot of SR downtime and not be optimal anymore. I think if they do this, they should also add the 5 CP SR from stealth again as part of the talent.
08/01/2017 09:19 PMPosted by Lolaan
they should also add the 5 CP SR from stealth again as part of the talent.


Maybe not 5CPs, but definitely something like the glyph we had in the past or a 0CP SR lastly like 6s that doesn't break stealth.
They nerfed Bloodtalons again? Is Moment of Clarity going to dominate that tier now?
08/01/2017 11:39 PMPosted by Rhahen
They nerfed Bloodtalons again? Is Moment of Clarity going to dominate that tier now?


what do you mean again?
Savage Roar does not snapshot on the PTR. Your bleed damage goes up immediately when you cast the buff, down when it falls off.


I would advise Blizzard to think carefully about this change, if I thought they would listen. This has "unintended consequences" written all over it - Blizzard's stated goal is to reduce how tight the rotation is but this could actually swing things the other way because currently we don't maintain strict 100% uptime on Roar.
Thank you for the ER on bloodtalons change. All the PvP Druids thank you, and I'm sure I speak for many in saying thank you for actually reading our feedback here.
I really do hope you guys are looking into feral survivability in PvP. The ER on blood talons is a step in the right direction, but def not the solution. We don't need much! Just a little love in that department.

Also, I agree with others. The SR change should be carefully tested.
Bloodtalons was nerfed from 50% to 25% and now they're taking it down to 20%.

The Ailuro pouncers' are gonna need a third stat now.
08/02/2017 09:23 AMPosted by Rhahen
Bloodtalons was nerfed from 50% to 25% and now they're taking it down to 20%.

The Ailuro pouncers' are gonna need a third stat now.


Even before 7.3 they're already pretty crap as it is with the no more T19 4-set.. There's really no reason to use them anymore. Class ring + either Behemoth/Chatoyant/Luffa have taken over for ST/2-target, and Chatoyant + Luffas for add fights / M+ when running predator.

I'd like to see some sort of small bloodtalons increased damage bonus added to the boots, or a bunch of mastery thrown onto them to make them more worthwhile for people that enjoy the playstyle of them. I personally am a big fan of pouncers as they have a more engaging / strategic playstyle to them that I find really fun.
08/02/2017 07:00 AMPosted by Brún
Savage Roar does not snapshot on the PTR. Your bleed damage goes up immediately when you cast the buff, down when it falls off.


I would advise Blizzard to think carefully about this change, if I thought they would listen. This has "unintended consequences" written all over it - Blizzard's stated goal is to reduce how tight the rotation is but this could actually swing things the other way because currently we don't maintain strict 100% uptime on Roar.


With the added duration to SR 100% uptime is trivial to maintain, whether it snapshots or not is almost entirely irrelivant in light of the 7.3 changes.
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I would advise Blizzard to think carefully about this change, if I thought they would listen. This has "unintended consequences" written all over it - Blizzard's stated goal is to reduce how tight the rotation is but this could actually swing things the other way because currently we don't maintain strict 100% uptime on Roar.


With the added duration to SR 100% uptime is trivial to maintain, whether it snapshots or not is almost entirely irrelivant in light of the 7.3 changes.


You're right I totally forgot about the duration change *facepalm*. Still a curious decision but probably of limited impact.
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I would advise Blizzard to think carefully about this change, if I thought they would listen. This has "unintended consequences" written all over it - Blizzard's stated goal is to reduce how tight the rotation is but this could actually swing things the other way because currently we don't maintain strict 100% uptime on Roar.


With the added duration to SR 100% uptime is trivial to maintain, whether it snapshots or not is almost entirely irrelivant in light of the 7.3 changes.


24 second SR or 36 second SR there are going to be inevitable bad timing windows where rip and SR are about to fall off and you're going to have to refresh SR in exchange for rip downtime (or refresh rip and have to deal with several seconds of no SR on bleeds). Prior to 7.3, in situations like this the proper reaction would be to simply refresh rip while SR is up, and just let it fall off for a few seconds, no issue. With these proposed changes this will not be possible anymore.

With T21 we do not have extra duration on rip duration for our set anymore, so if you're running jagged wounds, SR not snapshotting could definitely pose a problem and mean DPS-loss in these awkward timing windows.. Unless that is their intention with making this change?? (intending for us to have slightly lower rip uptime and have it not be 100% in exchange for prioritizing 100% SR uptime?). I have no clue what the intention of this SR change was, but I don't like it.
I would like to see it where if you cast regrowth with a predatory swiftness proc available (bloodtalons) it doesn't trigger a GCD. I would also like to see our baseline crit returned to 10%. Both these things have impact to us and I always felt that part of predatory swiftness should be more seamless in our rotation and not trigger a GCD.

That said, I like what I have seen on PTR overall for the changes.
Has anyone simmed Moonfire with the newest build? If Bleeds and Mastery are taking a backseat to Crit/Vers and with Bloodtalons getting gutted, I'm curious as to whether it can compete with Bloodscent now.

If not, Laserkitty would like an energy cost reduction on it so that you actually multidot.
After doing some testing on the raider dummy, it appears as though Incarn + SR + MoC is the way to go right now on the PTR. (at least in 100% single-target).

Behemoth + Soul of the Archdruid Legendaries + T21 4-set, and 2 x 910-920 statstick trinkets (Arcanogolem digit + Memento). 2 x Rake relic, 1 x Rip relic. 926 ilevel.

Incarn + SoTF (from Ring) / SR / MoC: 1.02-1.03m DPS when I stopped hitting dummy. (DPS dipped a bit to 1.01 due to dots ticking afterward). Had no problem sustaining 1.03m'ish even 2 mins after using incarn. I'd imagine with a higher ilevel CoF this build would be quite a bit more potent too.

http://i.imgur.com/tKIE97c.jpg (DPS)

http://i.imgur.com/5US0TYr.jpg (damage %'s)

Standard Jagged Wounds+SoTF (ring) / SR / BT: Was sitting at around 995k-1.00m for quite sometime, was at around 990-995k when I stopped hitting the dummy, again DPS dropped a tad due to dots. 98% Rip uptime, 98% Rake uptime, 98.5% Savage roar uptime (BT snapshotting flawlessly). I actually got a few % better Ashamanes Bite RNG running standard build but it still got beat quite handily.

http://i.imgur.com/gORfiAk.jpg (DPS)

http://i.imgur.com/WAJfhnv.jpg (Damage spread by ability)

I also did multiple runs through of each getting the same results basically. Haven't tried different legendary combinations yet, but I figured Class ring + Behemoth is pretty standard for ST. Also tried JW / Sabertooth / MoC earlier but it felt not as good as the above 2 (didn't try it with T21 4-set though, going to have to next time). Have not tried Incarn/Sabertooth/MoC yet. But yes, BT feels a bit lackluster right now.

One other thing I noticed is when playing the standard JW/SR/BT it felt a lot more difficult to get use out of the T21 4-set Ferocious bite proc as it has a duration now (proc buff from 4-set lasts like 14-15 secs)... I found it tough to get use out of it compared to the MoC build and was missing out on basically every second or 3rd proc due to having to renew rip or SR. From the wording on the gear it seems like just a permanent buff that is consumed when you FB.. But that is not the case. This is due to the fact that the standard build rotation is not as accelerated as with running MoC, more pooling, slower, more waiting for energy. Using predatory swiftness procs taking up a global CD when you regrowth is kind of annoying also, like someone talked about above.

Whereas with the MoC version I was able to get use out of the majority of the 4-set procs due to how accelerated building up CP's is with all the shred OoC procs. Again, the wording on the 4-set bonus is pretty vague and inaccurate, it says "4% chance to cause your next ferocious bite", it makes no mention of the proc actually being a 15 second duration.
08/02/2017 10:28 PMPosted by Oh
One other thing I noticed is when playing the standard JW/SR/BT it felt a lot more difficult to get use out of the T21 4-set Ferocious bite proc as it has a duration now (proc buff from 4-set lasts like 14-15 secs)... I found it tough to get use out of it compared to the MoC build and was missing out on basically every second or 3rd proc due to having to renew rip or SR. From the wording on the gear it seems like just a permanent buff that is consumed when you FB.. But that is not the case. This is due to the fact that the standard build rotation is not as accelerated as with running MoC, more pooling, slower, more waiting for energy. Using predatory swiftness procs taking up a global CD when you regrowth is kind of annoying also, like someone talked about above.

Whereas with the MoC version I was able to get use out of the majority of the 4-set procs due to how accelerated building up CP's is with all the shred OoC procs. Again, the wording on the 4-set bonus is pretty vague and inaccurate, it says "4% chance to cause your next ferocious bite", it makes no mention of the proc actually being a 15 second duration.


I'm hoping the intention is still that proc ferocious bites will not cost combo points:

The current intention of the Feral 4 piece bonus is that you get a 100% free in every way (except a GCD) Ferocious Bite.

This may change as set bonuses go through some more iteration throughout the 7.3.0 development cycle.
Savage Roar will no longer be a "snapshot" mechanic damage buff, where it causes a damage over time ability to deal the bonus damage for its entire duration, like how Bloodtalons and Tiger's Fury work. This is a recent 7.3.0 change and is intended.

Snapshotting can be a contentious mechanic - some people like it, some people don't. However, snapshotting has been a mechanic on Feral for a long time, so we want to keep it in some form on the spec for now.

Savage Roar is not really an interesting place to have snapshotting, especially in 7.3.0 where its duration is being greatly increased and combo points won't be as scarce in a Jagged Wounds build. Keeping Savage Roar up 100% of the time will be much easier, and as a result, snapshotting there becomes a mechanic where you're only really given opportunities to fail with a larger than usual damage penalty. Contrast that with Bloodtalons and Tiger's Fury where - due to their limited nature - the player is instead given opportunities to maximize the benefit of those two buffs and gain more than usual benefit from a low-uptime snapshotting damage buff.

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