Kael'thas redeemed

Moon Guard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm97yNPPZQs

What if Kael'thas never turned traitor and instead dug in his heels to fight honourably?

This is Alliance Campaign - Curse of the Blood Elves -Chapter 2: A Dark Covenant played on hard difficulty with no naga.

I am currently working on a mod for this where Kael'thas refuses to sell his soul to the devil and the blood elves stay in the Alliance. For now, I just played the mission by killing the naga units myself and using a little bit of imagination.
Garithos of all people would call Kael a traitor, horrible racist xenophobe you!
While I overall agree with the premise that Kael'thas ultimately betrayed his orders by working with the Naga, I disagree with the idea he sold out his soul during that mission. I definitely think it caused the path where he did, mind you.

But that's neither here nor there.

The question is that can we assume the Blood Elves would have been able to overcome the massive amount of Scourge / demonic forces given what limited resources he had? Of course in the context of the mission, you can 100% do it without the Naga and overcome it. (which you demonstrate)

With that in mind, let's assume so.

I think that Garithos' hatred for anything not Human will continually push away the Elves that we under his command, even when the Dreadlords are pushing in around him -- especially if he kept Kael'thas, an overall capable commander, on another front. In that situation, I think it's a safe bet that Garithos still acts in dumb ways by trusting Sylvanas and ultimately dies while Kael'thas moves back to Quel'thalas.

On the other way around, if Garithos instead kept him close Kael'thas could have probably kept the Dreadlords from influencing the Lordaeron Remnants under Warlord Garithos. It's possible we can even see Garithos elevating himself as King in this respect as his forces are strong.

This is of course all assuming that Kael'thas doesn't just leave the Remnants altogether after the repeated mistreatment AND that he still has a large contingent of forces after the (assumed) loss of casualties in that second mission.
07/18/2017 09:12 PMPosted by Naharak
While I overall agree with the premise that Kael'thas ultimately betrayed his orders by working with the Naga, I disagree with the idea he sold out his soul during that mission. I definitely think it caused the path where he did, mind you.

But that's neither here nor there.

The question is that can we assume the Blood Elves would have been able to overcome the massive amount of Scourge / demonic forces given what limited resources he had? Of course in the context of the mission, you can 100% do it without the Naga and overcome it. (which you demonstrate)

With that in mind, let's assume so.

I think that Garithos' hatred for anything not Human will continually push away the Elves that we under his command, even when the Dreadlords are pushing in around him -- especially if he kept Kael'thas, an overall capable commander, on another front. In that situation, I think it's a safe bet that Garithos still acts in dumb ways by trusting Sylvanas and ultimately dies while Kael'thas moves back to Quel'thalas.

On the other way around, if Garithos instead kept him close Kael'thas could have probably kept the Dreadlords from influencing the Lordaeron Remnants under Warlord Garithos. It's possible we can even see Garithos elevating himself as King in this respect as his forces are strong.

This is of course all assuming that Kael'thas doesn't just leave the Remnants altogether after the repeated mistreatment AND that he still has a large contingent of forces after the (assumed) loss of casualties in that second mission.


Its like all that political mess! We can just blame it all on Racism. Garithos is close enough to a white !@#$%^ christian anglo saxon -*! enthusiast trump supporting russian spy crusader oppressive patriarchist.
07/18/2017 09:17 PMPosted by Xeeni
Its like all that political mess! We can just blame it all on Racism. Garithos is close enough to a white !@#$%^ christian anglo saxon -*! enthusiast trump supporting russian spy crusader oppressive patriarchist.


brb colluding with russia
07/18/2017 09:18 PMPosted by Naharak
07/18/2017 09:17 PMPosted by Xeeni
Its like all that political mess! We can just blame it all on Racism. Garithos is close enough to a white !@#$%^ christian anglo saxon -*! enthusiast trump supporting russian spy crusader oppressive patriarchist.


brb colluding with russia


Sylvanas*
07/18/2017 09:08 PMPosted by Xeeni
Garithos of all people would call Kael a traitor, horrible racist xenophobe you!


Did you watch the video?

07/18/2017 09:12 PMPosted by Naharak
I disagree with the idea he sold out his soul during that mission.


I am being metaphorical. Vashj isn't the devil either.

But that was the first step on his road down the path that would end up with him pretty much literally selling his soul to the devil when he swore his allegiance to Kil'jaeden.

07/18/2017 09:12 PMPosted by Naharak
I think that Garithos' hatred for anything not Human will continually push away the Elves that we under his command, even when the Dreadlords are pushing in around him -- especially if he kept Kael'thas, an overall capable commander, on another front. In that situation, I think it's a safe bet that Garithos still acts in dumb ways by trusting Sylvanas and ultimately dies while Kael'thas moves back to Quel'thalas.

On the other way around, if Garithos instead kept him close Kael'thas could have probably kept the Dreadlords from influencing the Lordaeron Remnants under Warlord Garithos. It's possible we can even see Garithos elevating himself as King in this respect as his forces are strong.


I think you are mistaken in your assessment of Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos.

Here are the simple facts:

Scenario 1
(1) Othmar Garithos shows contempt for Kael
(2) Kael is sent to complete a magical based mission in a magical city he is familiar with
(3) Kael consorts with the naga
(4) Othmar discovers this, commands Kael never to consort with the naga (their enemies) again, and to be careful about his loyalties
(5) Kael joins forces with the naga
(6) Othmar Garithos sentences Kael and his men to death for treason

Scenario 2
(1) Sylvanas frees Othmar Garithos from Detheroc's control
(2) Othmar Garithos shows contempt for Sylvanas
(3) Sylvanas offers Othmar Garithos an Alliance against the Scourge
(4) Othmar Garithos agrees and abides by the terms of their agreement
(5) Sylvanas breaks the terms of their agreement and betrays Garithos

Some obvious observations:

(1) Othmar Garithos doesn't like groups that have given him reason to dislike them.

-Blood elves: fair-weather allies that have always taken more than they received from the Alliance. For him personally: his family, friends, home, and community were destroyed because Lordaeron diverted resources to defend Quel'thalas (which thousands of humans died to defend). Quel'thalas repaid this sacrifice by promptly abandoning the Alliance.
-The undead: monsters that destroyed Lordaeron. Enough said.

(2) Othmar Garithos abides by honour.

-Even though he doesn't trust Kael, he does not act on his suspicions until Kael commits repeated offenses.
-Even though he doesn't trust Sylvanas, he does not plan to betray her without cause (unlike Sylvanas, who planned to betray him from the start)

(3) Othmar Garithos uses his assets appropriately

-He sent his best spellcasters to repair magical devices
-He sent a former Dalaran leader to supervise Dalaran repairs
-He assigned the commander already present at Dalaran to defend it from a flanking attack with the forces that Kael stated were "warriors" who were eager for battle

I am not suggesting Othmar Garithos was going to give Kael a hug when he won the battle. He was a grizzled grim General Ripper. But there is nothing to suggest that he wasted resources or that he would have acted dishonourably. Lots of honourable and smart men are mean-spirited. Othmar Garithos is just about the most realistic military man in this game.

07/18/2017 09:12 PMPosted by Naharak
This is of course all assuming that Kael'thas doesn't just leave the Remnants altogether after the repeated mistreatment AND that he still has a large contingent of forces after the (assumed) loss of casualties in that second mission.


What mistreatment? Some mean words? Then Kael wasn't ready for war.

Kael complained when he was given what he felt was a mundane task (but which somehow he also needed naga help to complete). Kael then complained that he was given a hard battle immediately after asking to be sent to battle. Kael also complained that Othmar was rude to him (instead of licking his boots like Kael was likely accustomed to as a spoiled prince).

So I ask again, what mistreatment exactly?
07/18/2017 10:11 PMPosted by Gärithos
What mistreatment? Some mean words? Then Kael wasn't ready for war.

Kael complained when he was given what he felt was a mundane task (but which somehow he also needed naga help to complete). Kael then complained that he was given a hard battle immediately after asking to be sent to battle. Kael also complained that Othmar was rude to him (instead of licking his boots like Kael was likely accustomed to as a spoiled prince).

So I ask again, what mistreatment exactly?


The suggestion that other races were not mistreated by Garithos is spurious; by your own admission, he is a racist and has his own justification for being said racist. He makes this known through his speech -- if you want to boil it down to mean words, fine, but these are the Elves, who are a notoriously proud people.

Through the lens of Kael'thas and his kin, knowing they're proud, repeated mistreatment can cause discontent and outright mutiny. Additionally, Garithos wouldn't bring them to the front lines -- another slight against him. Kael's selfish desire for glory could be the driving motivator for these continued slights.

Ultimately, Kael'thas desired power and he betrayed several masters to get it: first it was "innocent" enough by siding with the Naga and Garithos is an overall !@#$%^- of which there are better commanders like Mograine or Abbendis the Elder, but they were operating either in secret at the time or in another region (E.G., the plaguelands) so Kael's options were thin.

(3) Othmar Garithos uses his assets appropriately

-He sent his best spellcasters to repair magical devices
-He sent a former Dalaran leader to supervise Dalaran repairs
-He assigned the commander already present at Dalaran to defend it from a flanking attack with the forces that Kael stated were "warriors" who were eager for battle


While from an outside lens, this is correct, he made the crucial mistake of treating his Elven soldiers like Lordaeronian Humans. This is ultimately a blunder and we see that in the Forsaken campaign: with no trained or good mages around, Garithos is unable stop the Dreadlords from taking control of his entire force, which I'm heavily leaning on that Kael'thas and his Elves, who are powerful magi in their own right, could have possibly stopped if they were present.

To summarize:

- Garithos ultimately mistreated the Elves and wounded their pride; this might not seem like a big deal to Lordaeronians, but to Elves is a big deal.
- Kael'thas is a Prince (by your words, spoiled), but feels that he is not treated the way his station deserves
- Garithos treats his Elven regiments like Humans.

I am critical of Garithos' mistreatment of the Elves because that ultimately led to his downfall. Whether or not the Elves as a race or Kael'thas' followers or that Garithos is justified in his racism is up to anyone else and not genuinely part of the argument, I think.

I am being metaphorical. Vashj isn't the devil either.

But that was the first step on his road down the path that would end up with him pretty much literally selling his soul to the devil when he swore his allegiance to Kil'jaeden.


I'm not entirely sure why Kael'thas didn't move back to Quel'thalas and try to take it back because that's ultimately what he did with Lor'theron. He assigned Lor'theron to take back Quel'thalas and it clearly worked with flying colors...
07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
The suggestion that other races were not mistreated by Garithos is spurious; by your own admission, he is a racist and has his own justification for being said racist. He makes this known through his speech -- if you want to boil it down to mean words, fine, but these are the Elves, who are a notoriously proud people.


Why are elves just proud and not racist when they think themselves above other races?

(Side note: I am so sick of the misuse of the word racist. The word is speciesism. Warcraft has plenty of that from many species. There isn't any racism to speak of AFAIK.)

Also:

07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
The suggestion that other races were not mistreated by Garithos is spurious


I don't remember him executing the dwarves. Yeah, he also chews them out. And they swear at him under their breath when he can't hear them.

What exactly do you think the army is like in real life? I didn't see him "mistreat" them. I didn't see him misuse their abilities.

Thoughts, words, and actions are not congruent. Having feelings, even ones you express in words, is very different from acting on them.

07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
Through the lens of Kael'thas and his kin, knowing they're proud, repeated mistreatment can cause discontent and outright mutiny. Additionally, Garithos wouldn't bring them to the front lines -- another slight against him. Kael's selfish desire for glory could be the driving motivator for these continued slights.

Ultimately, Kael'thas desired power and he betrayed several masters to get it: first it was "innocent" enough by siding with the Naga and Garithos is an overall !@#$%^- of which there are better commanders like Mograine or Abbendis the Elder, but they were operating either in secret at the time or in another region (E.G., the plaguelands) so Kael's options were thin.


I don't think that part of the story was told poorly. I just don't find Kael to be sympathetic.

07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
Mograine or Abbendis the Elder


I like them, though I don't agree with the implication that Othmar Garithos was inferious, but my headcanon is that they were simply still reeling from the destruction of the Silver Hand by Arthas in the first mission of the undead campaign. (Not to imply that the Silver Hand was completely exterminated, but obviously their main base in the region base was destroyed, leaders were killed, and so on.) They were also just geographically far away in northwestern Lordaeron. I also headcanon that Kael'thas and his forces arrived by sailing around the western coast to Southshore rather than marching all the way from Silvermoon through countless Scourge held territories which explains why he wouldn't have passed by Tyr's Hand or anything.

Edit: hit post too early.

07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
While from an outside lens, this is correct, he made the crucial mistake of treating his Elven soldiers like Lordaeronian Humans. This is ultimately a blunder and we see that in the Forsaken campaign: with no trained or good mages around, Garithos is unable stop the Dreadlords from taking control of his entire force, which I'm heavily leaning on that Kael'thas and his Elves, who are powerful magi in their own right, could have possibly stopped if they were present.


Eh, maybe. This is speculative. I think it's just as likely as not. Saying because they are mages they could have countered it is like saying because a man is a doctor he can definitely perform surgery. Detheroc is an ancient and powerful being who chose to devote himself to mastering psychic magics. I wouldn't say it is a sure thing.

Nevertheless, you are acting like a lack of omniscience makes someone an incompetent boob. Othmar Garithos wasn't perfect. He was a grim, grizzled, gritty warrior who mixed easily with rough and tough men. We saw that he didn't play courtly games. It's rather absurd to suggest that it is HIS failing for not buttering up Kael'thas rather than Kael'thas' failing for being a bad soldier.

07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
To summarize:

- Garithos ultimately mistreated the Elves and wounded their pride; this might not seem like a big deal to Lordaeronians, but to Elves is a big deal.
- Kael'thas is a Prince (by your words, spoiled), but feels that he is not treated the way his station deserves
- Garithos treats his Elven regiments like Humans.


I don't particularly disagree with the idea that Othmar Garithos wounded the blood elves' pride or that someone else who was more in tune with their sensitivities could have handled them better. But I also think weak men should be washed out of boot camp rather than helped to become burdens on the army.

What I think was more important though was that you asserted that Kael's forces were misused and that they would be misused in a scenario where he never betrayed the Alliance. I think that is obviously false and that you failed to refute that.
07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
I'm not entirely sure why Kael'thas didn't move back to Quel'thalas and try to take it back because that's ultimately what he did with Lor'theron. He assigned Lor'theron to take back Quel'thalas and it clearly worked with flying colors...


I forget.
I snipped some of your quotes.

Why are elves just proud and not racist when they think themselves above other races?


I didn't suggest they weren't racist, so this is a strange point to make.

I don't remember him executing the dwarves. Yeah, he also chews them out. And they call him an !@#$%^- under their breath when he can't hear them.

What exactly do you think the army is like in real life? I didn't see him "mistreat" them. I didn't see him misuse their abilities.


The difference between some random soldiers and being mean to them and a powerful Prince-mage who controls a host of soldiers and being mean to him is quite extreme and important. Garithos acting the way he did was a strategic error on his part and he paid the ultimate price for it.

Garithos lacked the tact to keep all his forces under his command. That lack of tact, again, led to his ultimate downfall.

They were also just geographically far away in northwestern Lordaeron.


That's my point; your headcanon aside, if the Scarlet Crusade was in its infancy it would have benefited greatly by a great host of Elves to join it a la Kael'thas. But I brought up the fact that they were geographically in different regions, so again that's neither here nor there.

Nevertheless, you are acting like a lack of omniscience makes someone an incompetent boob.


You're just putting words in my mouth, as I said I am critical of his treatment of the Elves. In fact, I even agreed with your assessment that Garithos was using his assets correctly:

07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
While from an outside lens, this is correct


However he failed to retain his assets, which ultimately led to his downfall.

Suggesting that I say he made a mistake and then asserting that I called him akin to 'an incompetent boob', is just asinine.

07/18/2017 10:50 PMPosted by Gärithos
What I think was more important though was that you asserted that Kael's forces were misused and that they would be misused in a scenario where he never betrayed the Alliance. I think that is obviously false and that you failed to refute that.


I suggested that they were mistreated and that they wouldn't get what they wanted

07/18/2017 09:12 PMPosted by Naharak
especially if he kept Kael'thas, an overall capable commander, on another front.


I assert here that Garithos uses his asset in a smart way, but then still makes dumb moves by trusting Sylvanas.

I wouldn't say it is a sure thing.


In the scenario where Kael'thas is involved, I believe it is a possibility that he could have prevented it. When Kael'thas is removed (either from the entire world or another front) then Garithos gets chumped; that much, we know.
07/18/2017 11:06 PMPosted by Gärithos
07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
I'm not entirely sure why Kael'thas didn't move back to Quel'thalas and try to take it back because that's ultimately what he did with Lor'theron. He assigned Lor'theron to take back Quel'thalas and it clearly worked with flying colors...


I forget.


"i have this huge host of elves that isn't really represented until the end of the undead campaign + WoW" is really the reason why tbh
07/18/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Naharak
I didn't suggest they weren't racist, so this is a strange point to make.


That's the implication when you use one word to describe Garithos and another to describe Kael when they are in fact both proud or whatever.

It's also just a pattern I've recognized. People go on endlessly about a human who was "racist" but it's just flavor if elves are "racists".

07/18/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Naharak
The difference between some random soldiers and being mean to them and a powerful Prince-mage who controls a host of soldiers and being mean to him is quite extreme and important. Garithos acting the way he did was a strategic error on his part and he paid the ultimate price for it.

Garithos lacked the tact to keep all his forces under his command. That lack of tact, again, led to his ultimate downfall.


Right, I forgot to respond to that point last time I think. An inability to manage Kael's morale was definitely a flaw, but attributing it to Othmar Garithos' ultimate downfall is ascribing too much power to Kael. They were fighting a war for survival during the apocalypse. It was just an uphill battle. There are too many variables to just say "he lost because he couldn't inspire loyality in Kael". Where was Archmage Modera or literally any other human mage who had survived Dalaran's destruction? Kael and his blood elves weren't the only spellcasters who ever lived.

Othmar's subsequent mind control and his lack of spellcasters was just a Blizzard writing decision. It's not like it really happened in a world with internal laws and consistency.

07/18/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Naharak
You're just putting words in my mouth, as I said I am critical of his treatment of the Elves.


Fair enough. You didn't say that. I just feel like I have this fight a lot, lol.

07/18/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Naharak
In fact, I even agreed with your assessment that Garithos was using his assets correctly:


I guess I lost that in the splitting of the hairs.

However he failed to retain his assets, which ultimately led to his downfall.

Suggesting that I say he made a mistake and then asserting that I called him akin to 'an incompetent boob', is just asinine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m34GUn0QqA

I suggested that they were mistreated and that they wouldn't get what they wanted


I don't think Kael was like, always secretly evil. I think he was just flawed in a number of ways and gave in to his mana addiction which led to fel corruption which ultimately led to becoming insane, mana-addled, and a follower of Kil'jaeden.

I say that because I think, at the time, what he wanted (even if he was too undisciplined to actually walk the path that would achieve it) was to save his people and be a good leader. And helping the Alliance reclaim and restore the Eastern Kingdoms would have achieved that.

I think it's a terrible flaw that he let wanting to be treated with reverence get in the way of that.

07/18/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Naharak
I assert here that Garithos uses his asset in a smart way, but then still makes dumb moves by trusting Sylvanas.


I misread that. People frequently assert that it was the wrong move and I got ahead of myself. Sorry.

07/18/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Naharak
In the scenario where Kael'thas is involved, I believe it is a possibility that he could have prevented it. When Kael'thas is removed (either from the entire world or another front) then Garithos gets chumped; that much, we know.


Yes, I also agree it's possible.

This reminds me of a good joke.

"My brother and I used to compete so much when we were children. But now we get along. Now we'll just laugh and laugh about how silly we were as children.

But I'll laugh more."
07/18/2017 11:28 PMPosted by Naharak
"i have this huge host of elves that isn't really represented until the end of the undead campaign + WoW" is really the reason why tbh


Yeah, that's another point on the whole thing.

So, was it a huge host or not? Because if it was then the missions were definitely not even approaching "suicidal" or "impossible".

Either Kael himself was a formidable opponent and his followers capable warriors, or they were not. They can't be a bunch of losers that need humans and dwarves to save them constantly when it's convenient and be awesome badasses whenever Blizz thinks that would be cooler.

In my mod that I am working on, I don't change much. I just give Kael Felo'melorn and remove the naga. I still expect it to be a serious challenge for the player, but I also want to make the point that Kael isn't supposed to be some pushover.
07/18/2017 09:19 PMPosted by Xeeni
Sylvanas*


Maybe if it was Soviet Russia.
Right, I forgot to respond to that point last time I think. An inability to manage Kael's morale was definitely a flaw, but attributing it to Othmar Garithos' ultimate downfall is ascribing too much power to Kael. They were fighting a war for survival during the apocalypse. It was just an uphill battle. There are too many variables to just say "he lost because he couldn't inspire loyality in Kael".


I suppose suggesting that the Elves could have played a far more integral role in preventing Detheroc's influence is shaky ground. I do think that he wouldn't have been Sylvanas if Kael'thas wasn't around, since Garithos needed an ally to displace Balnazzar from the Capital City.

Where was Archmage Modera or literally any other human mage who had survived Dalaran's destruction? Kael and is blood elves weren't the only spellcasters who ever lived.


hiding under a few rocks like patrick starr

You didn't say that.


07/18/2017 10:42 PMPosted by Naharak
I am critical of Garithos' mistreatment of the Elves


I misread that. People frequently assert that it was the wrong move and I got ahead of myself. Sorry.


It's fine, I could have made myself far more clear.

07/19/2017 12:02 AMPosted by Gärithos
Yeah, that's another point on the whole thing.

So, was it a huge host or not? Because if it was then the missions were definitely not even approaching "suicidal" or "impossible".

Either Kael himself was a formidable opponent and his followers capable warriors, or they were not. They can't be a bunch of losers that need humans and dwarves to save them constantly when it's convenient and be awesome badasses whenever Blizz thinks that would be cooler.

In my mod that I am working on, I don't change much. I just give Kael Felo'melorn and remove the naga. I still expect it to be a serious challenge for the player, but I also want to make the point that Kael isn't supposed to be some pushover.


Blizzard's representation of armies in its games is hugely farcical because they operate under the 'rule of kinda cool' and 'just enough'-ism. Since they don't publish those kind of details in any medium beyond visual representation in the games, should we as the players just assume that the current, last state of Kael'thas' forces, (so like Netherstorm, the Elves in the Illidari, Sunfury, Quel'thalas', Quel'danas etc) is the actual representation of Elven power?

That's where I think hypotheticals without proper assumptions like that are ultimately designed to devolve into inane arguments after a while. Two people with vastly different ideas of how much power one character had because they base it off of different mediums that are both canon is ridiculous.
*crunches on popcorn* I've had this conversation with Garithos before, teehee its fun to watch from the sidelines after stirring the pot >:)
07/19/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Xeeni
*crunches on popcorn* I've had this conversation with Garithos before, teehee its fun to watch from the sidelines after stirring the pot >:)


You have? I don't remember you.
I was hoping this was something involving Kael'thas coming back in WoW, now I'm sad.
07/19/2017 08:35 PMPosted by Portergauge
I was hoping this was something involving Kael'thas coming back in WoW, now I'm sad.


you can kael'thas got something in common right??? :)))))

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