Frost Death Knight in 7.3

Class Development
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BoS is still far ahead of any other talent choices.. please give us a viable separate talent setup or let the spec die.. because thats where this is going
08/11/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Obliterrate
BoS is still far ahead of any other talent choices.. please give us a viable separate talent setup or let the spec die.. because thats where this is going


pretty sure they have been trying to kill us all expansion so yeah think thats their choice
08/11/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Obliterrate
BoS is still far ahead of any other talent choices.. please give us a viable separate talent setup or let the spec die.. because thats where this is going


This is a viable separate talent.
https://youtu.be/AGUPlyt2P7w
08/11/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Obliterrate
BoS is still far ahead of any other talent choices.. please give us a viable separate talent setup or let the spec die.. because thats where this is going


None of the videos or tests that I have seen have BoS ahead of anything. Obliteration is showing higher numbers as is HRW. Did you perform your own tests and see something different? do you have a video at all showing what gives you the impression BoS is "far ahead"?
I believe Rime is bugged and giving half the procs it should.

Simulationcraft reports with current PTR build estimates Frost DKs should be getting twice as much as they're getting in-game.
08/20/2017 12:04 AMPosted by Achiron
I believe Rime is bugged and giving half the procs it should.

Simulationcraft reports with current PTR build estimates Frost DKs should be getting twice as much as they're getting in-game.


Far more likely that Simc is incorrectly calculating rime procs. After losing the T19 bonus and testing on PTR, using T21 it feels like im getting the same number of procs even after losing the T19 bonus.
Above everything else, I just want Frost dk mobility. Wraith walk is a joke. Tired of being the last in line in raids, last to soak boss abilities and getting run over like an old lady on the interstate by every other class when I pvp. Fix this
14% what the heck happened to the 23% aura buff? Please don't let frost swim at the bottom for another tier.
So the aura buff got cut in half, while spells retain the full value of the nerfs that were issued when the aura buff was 20%+ remain the same.

One step forward, two back blizzard.

This isn't hard, neither Unholy or Frost scale well. They're actually designed that way, our 'scaling' comes from legendary items, artifact traits and tier bonuses in both specs. Obliterate and Festering Strike actually need to be Frost/Shadow damage respectively and Frost needs better mastery scaling. Unholy's Festering strike needs another mechanical change but that's for a different thread.
14%? That's not going to be enough. And Raziael is 100% correct to repeat what you've been told since Mastery was introduced in Cata. Frost's abilities don't all scale with Mastery, and it's a problem.

How can you balance this spec when you want to emphasize use of abilities which don't scale with mastery, when there are already other factors which devalue haste and crit for the spec as well? Any time they have found a build which uses their mastery to the fullest by avoiding Oblit, you have deemed the rotation degenerate and killed that build.

I can't much speak to Unholy (though I don't doubt it has similar issues), but Frost scales like crap with gear, and you have to adjust it every patch of every expansion in very large part because of this.

14% with the same poor scaling is not going to be sufficient.
Every expansion that goes by and every patch it feels like we keep saying the same things about frost. Let Obliterate scale with mastery but they wont allow that so I don't know what to say.
Would like to hear from Hellbread, how will the aura nerf play out based on his testing?

Seems like the different spec options are still desirable, and mechanically we have actual options for fights that don't allow BoS tunneling.

But oh yeah, the sky is falling.
The ole over buff then over nerf train has arrived.
08/24/2017 07:44 AMPosted by Cortley
Would like to hear from Hellbread, how will the aura nerf play out based on his testing?

Seems like the different spec options are still desirable, and mechanically we have actual options for fights that don't allow BoS tunneling.

But oh yeah, the sky is falling.


From what i can tell its about 250k DPS difference from the initial patch aura to the current ptr. I honestly don't think its going to be enough to supplant unholy as the chosen DPS for DK. Unholy have far better options for a wider array of situations. Though Frost will definitely be viable.
Just to clarify the numbers--the DK "buff aura" on PTR is +23%, which is intended. The patch notes say "14%" because this is a 14% increase over what's on live (+8%).

Part of the apparent reduction in the patch notes is that 5% of the 7.3 buff was advanced into a live hotfix a few weeks ago. So the "increase" from live, in the 7.3 patch notes, looks 5% smaller.
08/24/2017 06:44 PMPosted by Sigma
Just to clarify the numbers--the DK "buff aura" on PTR is +23%, which is intended. The patch notes say "14%" because this is a 14% increase over what's on live (+8%).

Part of the apparent reduction in the patch notes is that 5% of the 7.3 buff was advanced into a live hotfix a few weeks ago. So the "increase" from live, in the 7.3 patch notes, looks 5% smaller.


What do you know, a bunch of people who never tested it decided to complain before even giving it a chance and instead went straight to the forums to complain that they had been lied to when in fact you did exactly what you had said.
08/24/2017 06:44 PMPosted by Sigma
Just to clarify the numbers--the DK "buff aura" on PTR is +23%, which is intended. The patch notes say "14%" because this is a 14% increase over what's on live (+8%).

Part of the apparent reduction in the patch notes is that 5% of the 7.3 buff was advanced into a live hotfix a few weeks ago. So the "increase" from live, in the 7.3 patch notes, looks 5% smaller.


I don't understand that math at all. Not sure where that 8% came from since it was 5% buff in the hotfix back on july 24th to counteract fixing the bug with empowered rune weapon, wasn't actually a real buff. Regardless though, 5% + 14% = 19%.

If you are saying it is multiplicative then it would be for example 1 (live) x.05 (hotfix) = 1.05 x 0.14 (7.3 patch) = 1.197 or 1.2 which would equate to a 20% increase from where we originally were, still not 23%.

Just hoping that we will get some hot fixes soon if things don't pan out on live since it is such a big change.
Highlights: What Obelysc said. Comments on the Aug 18th 7% nerf. Pros to 7.3 for Frost DKs. Cons for Frost DKs. Particular bone to pick with SoN. Positive about 7.3 changes overall.

08/24/2017 12:51 PMPosted by Obelysc
From what i can tell its about 250k DPS difference from the initial patch aura to the current ptr. I honestly don't think its going to be enough to supplant unholy as the chosen DPS for DK. Unholy have far better options for a wider array of situations. Though Frost will definitely be viable.


Pretty much what he said.

That Aug 18th 7% reduction:

I will say that the August 18th 7% reduction to Frost did feel a little steep. I wish I could throw down some math here, but all I have is my gut feeling produced after 60+ hours of testing in PTR (just check my Youtube channel). I would have been happier with a 5% damage reduction. That said, I understand this may have been done because our dps with t21 (putting aside the cries about how unimaginative a 15% damage bonus to HB, Obli, and FSc is for a 2-set) was decent, even without the 4-set bonus (which increased our dps by ca 0.5% - that's about 2 million damage per 5 minutes in my 930 gear). Having to re-nerf later to fix damage would, as has historically been the case, cause wailing. It may also have something to do with Netherlight Crucible giving us access to more traits, especially Ambidexterity (which has historically been amazing and I am confident it will continue to be amazing, esp for Obli/RA).

Pros and Cons for 7.3 and tier 20 (does not include commentary on t21).

Some Pros:
- I'm excited about the tier 75 talents: they all look amazing. Volatile Shielding is so sexy looking and will be a favorite go-to for BoS specs when possible. Permafrost is no longer negligible and will be the go-to on low movement, non-magical damage fights. IA for all movement fights (unless survivability's an issue); it also makes me happy.
- I'm excited that there are more build options. Just see my other forum post in 7.3 Feedback or my Youtube. Like this build: 3310033? Wat? or maybe even 2210021? Wat wat?
- <3 that Relic system tied to Crucible. Though it's not out yet and I haven't tried it, it looks cool.

Some Cons:
- CH/Tor is the legendary pair. This does not mean they are too powerful. It does mean other legendaries have not yet been brought up to their level of synergy.
- While we have more build options currently, the 7% reduction stung so bad that the actual buff we are receiving is not as big as 23% (or 14%, if you will) suggests.
- SoN is conspicuously negligible. I would only recommend players to take it if they have neither CH nor Tor and wish to run BoS or SS/HRW, paired with Kolt. Else, BoS uses CH/Tor and SS/HRW uses Tor/Kolt (or, believe it or not, CH/Tor!). The root of SoN's issue, for BoS builds, lies in the lack of resource production per ERW (rip HRW). It was suggested that one could take Koltira's with SoN, implying that one can get more chances for more runes from each ERW. But there-in lies the problem: RNG. It is why I do not recommend IT or ME in BoS builds. Rarely you'll roar through the clouds with leet parses, other times you'll weep sadly like a wet noodle. CH/Tor is consistent and, ergo, better.

Conclusions about 7.3:

All in all, Frost DKs are going to be in a... more interesting place with 7.3. I suspect they will not pass Unholy, which is not a big deal as long as Frost isn't a chicken nugget in comparison. I also suspect, as others do, BoS will fall right out of use in ToS (worsened by the bricking of SoN, which previously helped BoS hold ground in AoE fights). That said, I personally think 7.3 is a step in the right direction. The tier 75 changes alone show that someone(s) up there is paying attention, even though sometimes it doesn't feel like it. Let's keep making this better.

Edit note: just cleaned up some language. No major changes.
im particularly not optomistic about our best Scaling talent and build BoS was trucked with a series of nerfs and talent synergy nerfs.

Inorder to promote our worst scaling talents.

This is the very definition of fools gold
if frost was tied with unholy that would good for raid's but you may see some on the bench waiting for there spot in a raid and never see it. who know's its just a Guess That's all.

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