Elemental Discussion pt3

Class Development
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Once again, someone has to do the math for Blizzard, and then they still make the wrong choice. Oh boy static overload once every minute. Give me a break.

Make it happen more commonly, but reduce the dmg. Level out the burst, while still making a mainstay of our aoe dps something we can see.
Oh, and in case anyone forgot, the PTR still has the Totem Mastery nerf. We still are getting a reduction to Lightning Bolt/Chainlightning overload chance for no reason, with no compensation buff. And then there's the reduction to our base mastery.

So, we're never, ever landing a single chainlightning overload again.
--Sustained AoE damage is similar or higher due to a large buff to Earthquake, and the likelihood of Static Overload's total contribution being higher in situations where Stormkeeper is being used.


In what world is stormkeeper once per minute more damage than ~4 per minute? I'm channeling my inner teenage girl right now because I literally can't even.
08/08/2017 08:57 PMPosted by Tuskini
Oh, and in case anyone forgot, the PTR still has the Totem Mastery nerf. We still are getting a reduction to Lightning Bolt/Chainlightning overload chance for no reason, with no compensation buff. And then there's the reduction to our base mastery.


I believe that was to make Totem Mastery not the obvious choice in the 15 tier for most scenarios. They should've buffed the other talents instead, especially Earthen Rage since it's never taken.
08/08/2017 09:01 PMPosted by Zakraz
I believe that was to make Totem Mastery not the obvious choice in the 15 tier for most scenarios. They should've buffed the other talents instead.


Totem Mastery is only taken right now because of Tier 20 (flame shock damage). During tier 19 the other talents were taken just as much, if not more, than totem mastery. When we switch to Tier 21 we might change talents, sure. But if we don't, this is nothing but a nerf for no reason other than to shove a middle finger at our spec.
Very curious about our ST situation on PTR because if a 9% buff is not insignificant.

Still very disappointed there's no word on survivability buffs; not even for our First-Aid tier Artifact trait.
08/08/2017 09:00 PMPosted by Rokksteady
In what world is stormkeeper once per minute more damage than ~4 per minute? I'm channeling my inner teenage girl right now because I literally can't even.


I'm guessing by 4 SO's per minute you're talking about sustained AoE. You aren't going to get nearly as many CL's off compared to live if Earthquake is pushed into the sustained AoE rotation in all situations due to all the GCD spent on it. Second, that's comparing one 200% buffed guaranteed SO vs. the average of 4 (on live) which may or may not actually be during SK which makes it different than just a 1 vs. 4.

when talking sustained AoE wouldn't your comparison be a bit much?
So now that we can't static overload nearly as much can our stormkeeper not less damage in pvp? it was 300% now it's 200% I believe because of SO. Now that SO is like useless... revert that?
08/08/2017 09:27 PMPosted by Tutanshamun
Now that SO is like useless... revert that?


Change on PvP's SO nerf would be wonderful... even if not entirely lifted, I'm hoping something like this is done. The first CL after a Stormkeeper in this way into a stacked group should at least be punishing.
Mythic Argus:
Ability : Rage of the elements
- Every minute, the spirit of Argus laughs and casts "rage of the elements" on 10 of your party members, turning them into elemental shamans for 60 seconds.
It really has to be embarrassing for Blizzard to so quickly and absolutely proven wrong when the post things like this.
I'm sorry. But this is complete horses**t. You have got to be kidding me. In what brainless world does someone actually believe that a SO once every minute is in ANY WAY comparable to the current 10% SO chance? I seriously want to understand the garbage thought process behind this decision. Earthquake will NEVER be as valuable to us in a raid as spamming CL. Adds move. They wander. They almost never stand in a tiny motionless circle waiting for our EQ to finish ticking. The only way they could make us use EQ was to turn our CL into garbage. These designers are pathetic. Sigma is pathetic. And anyone praising these changes is pathetic.
Now that I'm in Mythic Content survivability really is noticeably bad. We had 2 Enhance, 1 Ele in our raid, all three of us 1, 2, 3 in deaths. We were 5% worse than the next guy. In heroic Shamans were down there in deaths as well but it wasn't as bad a gap.

Its not something you can't really pick up on until you look at the logs; we weren't going down all the time, but more than others. Either the Shamans I play with are bad, or we just are squishier than any other class by a large margin.

I wish Warcraft logs had survivability stats, my guess is we're at least 5% worse than any other class.
08/08/2017 07:27 PMPosted by Gistwiki
Our average damage per SK use should in theory rise, but without a doubt our Burst AoE potential is much lower.


Well. The first half of this sentence (which to be fair is from my post) couldn't have been any more wrong. As it stands, our average potential per Stormkeeper will drop significantly. The larger the number of SKs you compare, the more painful the comparison becomes.

When comparing what we could expect in 5 Stormkeeper casts:

https://gyazo.com/2589d5750139946f30a54692c3de18a8

The bell curve represents the average you'd expect on live, while the red highlight represents what we'll see on the ptr.

When you compare with say 11 Stormkeeper casts, it gets worse:

https://gyazo.com/08913ba093027e863b121268bf011424


We might be talking past each other somehow, because as I try to interpret what you're saying, it doesn't sanity-check. Talking about averages--on live you get 0.3 procs per Stormkeeper cast; on PTR you get 1.0. Would need more explanation of which "average" you're saying is going down.

Your first graph, the distribution of proc count on live over 5 Stormkeepers, I'd expect to look more like:
http://imgur.com/LVOmvRC
(With the "5" column highlighted in red, as you did)
The problem is that now SO is only on Stormkeeper and our AoE is only good once every minute, then falls off dramatically. EQ isn't great because adds simply don't stand in that tiny circle very long, and on top of that, you've nerfed EQ damage again in the latest PTR.

Also, we aren't sure why you are fixated on AoE when our ST is so bad and we have no utility or survivability. A few percent buff to ST isn't nearly enough. And why do we have to wait until 7.3 - is the intent to make elemental irrelevant for all of TOS?
08/08/2017 07:27 PMPosted by Gistwiki
...

Well. The first half of this sentence (which to be fair is from my post) couldn't have been any more wrong. As it stands, our average potential per Stormkeeper will drop significantly. The larger the number of SKs you compare, the more painful the comparison becomes.

When comparing what we could expect in 5 Stormkeeper casts:

https://gyazo.com/2589d5750139946f30a54692c3de18a8

The bell curve represents the average you'd expect on live, while the red highlight represents what we'll see on the ptr.

When you compare with say 11 Stormkeeper casts, it gets worse:

https://gyazo.com/08913ba093027e863b121268bf011424


We might be talking past each other somehow, because as I try to interpret what you're saying, it doesn't sanity-check. Talking about averages--on live you get 0.3 procs per Stormkeeper cast; on PTR you get 1.0. Would need more explanation of which "average" you're saying is going down.

Your first graph, the distribution of proc count on live over 5 Stormkeepers, I'd expect to look more like:
http://imgur.com/LVOmvRC
(With the "5" column highlighted in red, as you did)


On the real though this isn't an "issue" most of us care about... I personally abandoned this spec and moved to a boomy simply because our single target and survivability is some of the worst in the game. And no a 9% buff is not gonna solve that.
Some thoughts before I return this character to the bench.

1. Thoughts on the new Static Overload. Personally, i like the new static overload. It gives our burst AoE with 3 chain lightning casts a higher average than before, with some damage outside of stormkeeper being moved away to compensate.

2. Mythic progression concerns:
a) Single Target. Our single target still feels like it will be much weaker than everyone else. I'm not expecting us to be on top or even in the top 5 or so, but it would be nice not to be so far behind others on pure ST fights. On Goroth looking at the 90th percentile, we are nearly 12% behind the top. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=90&boss=2032
Looking at Sisters of the Moon, we are 13% behind the top.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=90&boss=2050

With such large gaps in damage and under Blizzard's usual mindset to not touch specs after the initial tuning at the start of a tier, its no wonder ele's are being benched at an alarming rate, epecially when the last 3 bosses of the raid are practically single target fights.
Changes I'd like to see in regards to our ST:
Movement is what really hurts us the most here. Gust of Wind is a great tool to shorten travel time, but we lose so many GCDs from just shifting to ghost wolf and booking it somewhere. I'd really like to see lightning bolt return to being castable on the move. Or at least let us talent into it. I'd gladly give up gust of wind in order to cast it on the move.

b) Survivability. I really don't know where to even start with this one.

Astral Shift: 90 second CD, 8 second duration 40%DR. Assuming an ability would deal 4 million damage to us (which is nearly lethal), our CD would reduce it by 1.6 million, still dealing 2.4 million to us, which is a fairly large chunk of our health. Now let me compare this to the class that I was practically forced to swap to in order to remain in progression, frost mage.

Ice Barrier: 25 second CD, 1 million absorb shield. Given the above example, taking the same 4 million damage would leave you taking 3 million. only .6 million more damage taken for less than 1/3 of the CD, not to mention that ice barrier lasts a full 1 minute (or until it is broken). Mages also have

Ice Block: Roughly 2 charges over a fight due to cold snap, Full Immunity (can't cast/move while active), lasts 10 seconds.

Don't even make me bring up rogues.......

This is by far my most concerning issue. Not only are we not able to soak mechanics as well as many other classes, we are simply unable to live if we are unfortunate to get targeted by mechanics over and over. I constantly feared for my life soaking hydra shots on Mythic Mistress because I simply didn't have anything to use in case things went wrong (ie. 1 person didn't make it to their soak assignment).

Changes to survivability I'd like to see: (not necessarily all of them)
a) Second Charge and/or shorter CD and/or longer duration for Astral Shift.
b) Talent to replace reincarnation to allow it to act as a cheat death effect, 5 minute CD
c) Improvements to our healing, making our astral shift and healing surge work similarly to enhancements (healing surge instant cast for maelstrom, shift applies a HoT)

I honestly hope good changes are made for Argus. I as well as many other shamans in Earthshrine/SEL have already given up for ToS and rerolled in order to avoid being benched. This has by far been one of the most fun and enjoyable ranged classes I have ever played to this date and I still don't regret my decision to roll elemental this expansion (have played mage as my main since I started playing in MoP). Playing mage now for progression is fine, but I'm likely to just step away from raiding mythic if I can't return to elemental for Argus. Would much rather just do heroic raids during free time rather than commit to a schedule for raiding when I'm not even playing the class I enjoy.
Can we make Static Overload something like every X seconds your chain lightning will trigger Static Overload. Its kinda like the Stormkeeper change but we can cast it more and it doesnt depent on stormkeeper to guarantee a Static Overload.
I like the direction this is going, less RNG is good. Thank you for that Sigma.

But this really does shoe horn us into Earthquake a lot more... my main concern is that adds in this expansion are really hard to manage. A great many have active measures which prevent them from being clumped up. That's the big reason we've been using chain lighting so heavily, it can at least hit most of / all of its possible targets when they're spread out.

Our M+ viability is going to be hurt by this SO change, and we'll have to EQ more, but many prefixes are directly counter to a small, static, placed, damage over time ability.

Is a radius increase to EQ something that has been considered? What would be the concerns of such a change to help make it more viable?

Also you've mentioned how EQ's maelstrom usage is kind of weird with the way our maelstrom generates, I know a big concern is with the cost of EQ being exactly 50. I've seen many propose making EQ function like Earthshock, in that it would have the 50 minimum but would eat up all maelstrom in a single GCD to make things less... well, clunky. Just thought I'd throw that idea out there since you've mentioned the issue yourself, Sigma.
08/09/2017 02:59 AMPosted by Drosie
But this really does shoe horn us into Earthquake a lot more... my main concern is that adds in this expansion are really hard to manage. A great many have active measures which prevent them from being clumped up. That's the big reason we've been using chain lighting so heavily, it can at least hit most of / all of its possible targets when they're spread out.


We use CL over EQ because EQ does @#*@%#@* all damage, not w.e this reason is.

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