People wont soak in LFR Kil'jaeden

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08/10/2017 09:51 AMPosted by Jconstantinë
08/10/2017 09:26 AMPosted by Evelonia
It doesn't hurt to briefly explain the mechanics before jumping in. It isn't that hard. LFR is for everyone and sometimes they just need a little direction.


It doesn't hurt to look at the video someone posted on YouTube either.

Expecting a stranger to explain things when you could have learned the mechanics in 4 minutes prior to the queue........

You can't honestly expect all the strangers in LFR to have watched a video beforehand. Some people learn from experience. It takes 15 seconds to explain it but quite a chunk of time to be too bitter and keep wiping.
08/10/2017 10:26 AMPosted by Evelonia
08/10/2017 09:51 AMPosted by Jconstantinë
...

It doesn't hurt to look at the video someone posted on YouTube either.

Expecting a stranger to explain things when you could have learned the mechanics in 4 minutes prior to the queue........

You can't honestly expect all the strangers in LFR to have watched a video beforehand. Some people learn from experience. It takes 15 seconds to explain it but quite a chunk of time to be too bitter and keep wiping.


People who want to succeed go out of their way to know what they are doing. People who want to experience progression in LFR expect the fight to be explained to them.

If this was a single player fight, I wouldn't expect the other player to go out of their way to know what needs to be done.

I think people get themselves twisted up over games simply because they don't want to prepare.
Hey all,

Some quick philosophy points on Raid Finder in general.

As mentioned in the last developer Q&A, our philosophy toward Raid Finder in Legion has been to reduce the overall number of mechanics, but keep one or two important ones that players will need to react to in order to succeed. We believe this is preferable to having many mechanics visually present in Raid Finder, but not actually requiring players to react to them. By limiting the number of visual mechanics, but making sure the ones that remain are important, we believe that the Raid Finder experience will feel more in-line with that of higher difficulties.

While we've used the phrase "tourist mode" to describe Raid Finder in previous expansions, that is no longer indicative of our design philosophy. We want to make sure Raid Finder players are still getting an engaging gameplay experience (even if it is overall less intense than in higher difficulties).

It's good to note here, that with Kil'jaeden, we do believe that the experience should be an engaging and dramatic fight at the end of Tomb of Sargeras regardless of difficulty.
Are the gear rewards at least going to be increased to match the increased difficulty?

Or are we still at the thought process of 5 minute World Quests awarding better gear?
08/11/2017 01:47 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

Some quick philosophy points on Raid Finder in general.

As mentioned in the last developer Q&A, our philosophy toward Raid Finder in Legion has been to reduce the overall number of mechanics, but keep one or two important ones that players will need to react to in order to succeed. We believe this is preferable to having many mechanics visually present in Raid Finder, but not actually requiring players to react to them. By limiting the number of visual mechanics, but making sure the ones that remain are important, we believe that the Raid Finder experience will feel more in-line with that of higher difficulties.

While we've used the phrase "tourist mode" to describe Raid Finder in previous expansions, that is no longer indicative of our design philosophy. We want to make sure Raid Finder players are still getting an engaging gameplay experience (even if it is overall less intense than in higher difficulties).

It's good to note here, that with Kil'jaeden, we do believe that the experience should be an engaging and dramatic fight at the end of Tomb of Sargeras regardless of difficulty.


you can squirt the cat with the water bottle all day, but this can't just wont' learn, so what's the point? A lot of LFR players aren't there to learn. They don't care to learn. so why try to force them. Normal mode is more for learning than LFR.
People need to chill about LFR Kil'jaeden. It's week 1.

In a couple weeks the average ilevel will have gone up, and the average fight-knowledge will be way up, and it'll be easy.
It is awful when the one mechanic that matters randomly lands on the worst AFK/derp possible.

I love LFR though. For what it is and the niche it fills. Im glad Blizzard is paying attention to LFR.

I find the casuals and the ignorant can be as bad as the elitist in LFR. You will see folks geared to the teeth too lazy to even auto attack.

There has to be a happy medium between tourist mode AFK loot train and 10 determ stack breaking ourselves upon the lfr boss time sinks. I commend the designers for doing their best.
08/11/2017 01:50 PMPosted by Tyrathius
Are the gear rewards at least going to be increased to match the increased difficulty?


Seems to me that the content difficulty is being brought in line with the gear rewards.

08/11/2017 01:50 PMPosted by Tyrathius
Or are we still at the thought process of 5 minute World Quests awarding better gear?


They don't. Current lfr tier drops 885 gear. Unless you are getting a titanforge no world quest gear reward is beating that.
08/11/2017 01:50 PMPosted by Tyrathius
Are the gear rewards at least going to be increased to match the increased difficulty?

Or are we still at the thought process of 5 minute World Quests awarding better gear?


The drops start at 885, 895 for Kil'Jaden... Also increased difficulty? They literally removed a boss from a boss fight in ToS. While I agree they kept in some of the core fight mechanics in each fight this has been a very easy LFR.

Depending on your group you may end up with 5+ stacks of determination. Grats you get to actually progress like a real raider for once instead of just running in circles until your loot piñata explodes.
I have one word for this experiment. Garalon

You tried this before, and failed. Trying to make LFR "engaging" by having ANY mechanics matter has failed every time you try it. You tried in Mists to do this and after heated forum posts about it you reverted back to auto pilot mode, until now.

The cycle will repeat, and raid finder will return to auto pilot mode.

Truth of matter is, players don't treat LFR as a group activity, they treat it as a single player activity. The other people in group might as well be npcs as far as anyone there is concerned. Heck, when I am forced to do LFR for testing, I wish I could replace them with npcs. At least npcs don't go afk, or troll.

The issue with LFR has always been the mentality. It's been auto pilot so long that trying to force change that view never goes over well.

Now, if you do want to make mechanics still matter, Try to focus on ones that matter to the PLAYER not entire raid. Let it be a mechanic that one shots the player. Not one that wipes entire raid if one player did something wrong..
08/11/2017 02:02 PMPosted by Omegal
I have one word for this experiment. Garalon

You tried this before, and failed. Trying to make LFR "engaging" by having ANY mechanics matter has failed every time you try it. You tried in Mists to do this and after heated forum posts about it you reverted back to auto pilot mode, until now.

The cycle will repeat, and raid finder will return to auto pilot mode.

Truth of matter is, players don't treat LFR as a group activity, they treat it as a single player activity. The other people in group might as well be npcs as far as anyone there is concerned. Heck, when I am forced to do LFR for testing, I wish I could replace them with npcs. At least npcs don't go afk, or troll.


But that my silly hatted friend is what makes LFR truly a group activity.

In any group, there are those who will not help and are there to be carried. There are those who are not capable of helping but try their hardest. There are those superiorly capable who refuse to break a sweat. There are those few who are skilled, capable, and willing to put in the effort to carry the rest to victory.

LFR is the closest thing to reality in any of the group finding methods.
08/11/2017 01:51 PMPosted by Grumar
08/11/2017 01:47 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

Some quick philosophy points on Raid Finder in general.

As mentioned in the last developer Q&A, our philosophy toward Raid Finder in Legion has been to reduce the overall number of mechanics, but keep one or two important ones that players will need to react to in order to succeed. We believe this is preferable to having many mechanics visually present in Raid Finder, but not actually requiring players to react to them. By limiting the number of visual mechanics, but making sure the ones that remain are important, we believe that the Raid Finder experience will feel more in-line with that of higher difficulties.

While we've used the phrase "tourist mode" to describe Raid Finder in previous expansions, that is no longer indicative of our design philosophy. We want to make sure Raid Finder players are still getting an engaging gameplay experience (even if it is overall less intense than in higher difficulties).

It's good to note here, that with Kil'jaeden, we do believe that the experience should be an engaging and dramatic fight at the end of Tomb of Sargeras regardless of difficulty.


you can squirt the cat with the water bottle all day, but this can't just wont' learn, so what's the point? A lot of LFR players aren't there to learn. They don't care to learn. so why try to force them. Normal mode is more for learning than LFR.


I find Blizzard's new comments baffling. I can and do improve myself, but I have no control over 24 other random people.
08/11/2017 02:00 PMPosted by Shudder
08/11/2017 01:50 PMPosted by Tyrathius
Are the gear rewards at least going to be increased to match the increased difficulty?


Seems to me that the content difficulty is being brought in line with the gear rewards.

08/11/2017 01:50 PMPosted by Tyrathius
Or are we still at the thought process of 5 minute World Quests awarding better gear?


They don't. Current lfr tier drops 885 gear. Unless you are getting a titanforge no world quest gear reward is beating that.


PvP world quest gear is base 880. I know that's technically 5 ilevels lower but, IMO, it's not a significant enough difference for ease of obtaining. LFR may not be hard by raiding standards but it is still a significant time investment with only a small chance to get gear. WQs are quick and painless, guarantee a reward and, considering how much more often you can complete them, more likely to grant item upgrades.

I actually don't run LFR, except for when I need to knock out a quest or something quickly, because the rewards just aren't worth the effort.
08/11/2017 01:47 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

Some quick philosophy points on Raid Finder in general.

As mentioned in the last developer Q&A, our philosophy toward Raid Finder in Legion has been to reduce the overall number of mechanics, but keep one or two important ones that players will need to react to in order to succeed. We believe this is preferable to having many mechanics visually present in Raid Finder, but not actually requiring players to react to them. By limiting the number of visual mechanics, but making sure the ones that remain are important, we believe that the Raid Finder experience will feel more in-line with that of higher difficulties.

While we've used the phrase "tourist mode" to describe Raid Finder in previous expansions, that is no longer indicative of our design philosophy. We want to make sure Raid Finder players are still getting an engaging gameplay experience (even if it is overall less intense than in higher difficulties).

It's good to note here, that with Kil'jaeden, we do believe that the experience should be an engaging and dramatic fight at the end of Tomb of Sargeras regardless of difficulty.


That's great and all but as long as the only requirement to queue is "have X ilevel" then you're going to have to design the fight to work for the lowest common denominator players who don't use a boss mod and might be watching Netflix on the side.

Obviously not every player in LFR falls under that umbrella but enough do that it can make it frustrating and unfun for those of us who just want to get in and out without spending 45 minutes on a single boss.

Not that I disagree with the intent, I actually encourage it in a lot of ways but its going to be pretty hard to stuff that genie back in the bottle after you've trained players for 3+ expansions now that LFR is yolo-just-for-funzies mode.
08/11/2017 02:02 PMPosted by Omegal
Try to focus on ones that matter to the PLAYER not entire raid.


That also makes it harder for people to come into LFR just so they can "create" a story which gives them an excuse to bash on LFR on the forums.
08/11/2017 01:47 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

Some quick philosophy points on Raid Finder in general.

As mentioned in the last developer Q&A, our philosophy toward Raid Finder in Legion has been to reduce the overall number of mechanics, but keep one or two important ones that players will need to react to in order to succeed. We believe this is preferable to having many mechanics visually present in Raid Finder, but not actually requiring players to react to them. By limiting the number of visual mechanics, but making sure the ones that remain are important, we believe that the Raid Finder experience will feel more in-line with that of higher difficulties.

While we've used the phrase "tourist mode" to describe Raid Finder in previous expansions, that is no longer indicative of our design philosophy. We want to make sure Raid Finder players are still getting an engaging gameplay experience (even if it is overall less intense than in higher difficulties).

It's good to note here, that with Kil'jaeden, we do believe that the experience should be an engaging and dramatic fight at the end of Tomb of Sargeras regardless of difficulty.


Your new philosophy is fine and makes a good amount of sense, but soaking swirls on kil'jaeden is obviously not one of those mechanics that should matter. I mean come on, you full well know just how bad LFR and LFR players can be, expecting a bunch of people who have never even looked at the dungeon journal to spread out and soak like 6+ swirls at a time is just a ludicrous idea. There are plenty of other mechanics you could use as the "mechanic that matters" for KJ in LFR. Having focused dreadflame still pack a punch so people have to try help soak it would be fine, making rupturing singularity dangerous enough to knock people off the edge if they're not paying attention would be fine, darkness of a thousand souls and having to get into the rift would be fine, making the dark phase dangerous would be fine. All of those would kill plenty of people not paying attention but the fight would still be manageable. Expecting 6+ people to soak swirls all at the same time in LFR is NOT a mechanic that makes sense at all.
08/11/2017 01:47 PMPosted by Ornyx
By limiting the number of visual mechanics, but making sure the ones that remain are important, we believe that the Raid Finder experience will feel more in-line with that of higher difficulties.


This is a huge improvement. ++good
08/09/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Troodrood
Is LFR now progression?

Nope, never has been and never will be, at least imo.

Learning to do an instance through repeated wipes is progression.

08/09/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Troodrood
Would you count completion of LFR enough reason to accept a participant into your raid?

Maybe. If they performed well, knew and handled the mechanics, and have a good attitude, I'd be seriously inclined to invite them.

08/09/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Troodrood
But is the LFR really a "success" if it doesn't include any of the players it's supposed to be there for?

LFR is a success if the group finishes the run with an acceptable (therein lies the rub as this definition varies by person and there are 23 other opinions in every LFR run) amount of hardship. All 3 roles are present and given the chance to perform in a scaled down version of end game content so that is covered. Current Tier loot (scaled down appropriately) is on the menu as drops so that is covered. Everything needed for success is there, it typically comes down to the 24 individual attitudes present and frankly, at least imo, that is where the breakdowns most often occur.

So if "the group" finishes because you kicked everyone who isn't a "real raider", LFR is a success?
the problem isn't blizzard, the problem isn't the people who do LFR for personal progression, the problem is the people who ignore mechanics on purpose. You see this all the time in normal and heroic mode LFR - they are the people leaders kick for ignoring the mechanic. Sure some may not know, and usually you're given another chance if you mess up, however that is rare. I've instructed groups how to overcome the boss in one sentence it sometimes works, most of the time gets ignored. Sure i enlightened the people who been there for the first time, but I'll never get what to do through those thick minded people who ignore everything and tunnel the boss ignoring every mechanic on the way. Those people are causing the wipes, those are what you should direct your anger at, not blizzard or the LFR folk.

It doesn't matter what your ilevel is either guys, its LFR people do it for transmogs, runes, ap, gold many reasons to do it. Usually its for the augment runes its those people coming in with high ilevel and blasting it which makes it doable, which gives you your alt some starter gear to do normals. Which makes the people just auto attacking while watching "cat videos" passable. Getting angry at high ilevel people here posting is like shooting yourself in the foot. I don't get why you do it, if everyone who does LFR is a new alt, with just enough ilevel to get into it like it "should be". You'll need several heroism effects or not beat the enrage. now how is that enjoyable?

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