The Netherlight Crucible And You

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Hey guys!

So, after yesterday's Q&A, it's become apparent that there's still some confusion about the Netherlight Crucible and how it works. We've been keeping an eye on your discussions about the topic, and wanted to give some explanations where we can, as well as open up a thread for any additional questions you may have.

Q: How do the Relic "talents" unlock?

A: As your Artifact increases in level (by spending Artifact Power), your Relic slots will level up as well. When you first unlock the Crucible, you'll have access to the first additional trait (a +5 increase to your Artifact's item level) in each slot. The second row unlocks at Artifact level 60, 63, and 66 (for the left, center, and right Relic slots respectively), and the third and final row unlocks at Artifact level 69, 72, and 75. This should all be pretty apparent when you look at those slots in-game, but may not be showing clearly via datamined info.

Q: What did you mean by "it can't double roll a trait"?

A: Just that you will never be able to upgrade a Relic to increase the same Artifact trait twice. If your Relic already has a bonus rank of Wrath of the Ashbringer on it, that trait will not be one of the three options presented in the bottom row of the Crucible's upgrade tree.

In other words, there's no risk of having your Wrath of the Ashbringer relic be "ruined" by not rolling a second bonus to Wrath of the Ashbringer, because that could never have happened in the first place. However, if you get a relic without Wrath of the Ashbringer, there's now a chance that it'll gain it from the Crucible.

Additionally, those three options will always be unique; it won't, for example, give you the "choice" between Deflection, Deflection, or Deflection. Aside from making sure you always have options, this means that your odds of having your favorite trait appear on a Relic you'd otherwise have discarded are actually pretty decent.

Q: How do the ranks for the first two rows work?

A: There are no such ranks. We think this is coming from some confusion about how the Netherlight Crucible is showing up in datamining, versus how it actually operates in-game. Once you've unlocked a row in the Crucible, you just select the option you like, and that's it - there's no additional leveling up of those options beyond that.

For those peeking into the data (or anyone else who might be curious): this is because of how we built the system to allow the unlockable effects to stack between each relic. It's just a subtle behind-the-scenes optimization on our end.

Hopefully that will help clear the air about how the Netherlight Crucible works, but we're sure you have more questions, so ask away and we'll do our best to answer what we can! We'll aim to provide an update sometime next week. Thanks!
I'm...even more confused...
Those words..."chance"..."odds"...
08/04/2017 06:33 PMPosted by Lore
Additionally, those three options will always be unique; it won't, for example, give you the "choice" between Deflection, Deflection, or Deflection. Aside from making sure you always have options, this means that your odds of having your favorite trait appear on a Relic you'd otherwise have discarded are actually pretty decent.
Huzzah, more RNG! Just what the players have been asking for!
using hunters as an example here, will there ever be the WORST kind of RNG where, say i use a kill command relic, and my 3 choices on tier 3 are....multi shot,dodge,turtleshell healing......to me, and im sure many others, that relic would just be a throw away because while there is a through put (multi shot) multi shot is just so negligible for BM that its just as bad as a non throughput
So given the 3rd row options are related to the relic in the given Slot, in your example a Relic with WotA, what happens when you replace a relic for a given slot?

I'm assuming the options in the 3rd row would change to ensure that you don't double roll a trait as described. Do we get the ability to change which option on the 3rd row we use after first selecting one? It would be pretty frustrating to pick an option, then have that option change (possibly to non-throughput) after we get a relic upgrade in the future.

(Not sure if this question is answered by just being on the PTR, but since I've only seen Datamining/posts based off datamining, and this post is attempting to clear up confusion based on that, I thought it was worth asking).

Edit: Is there some guarantee that we'll get at least one throughput option in this row? Are they all going to be throughput? I can't imagine a lot of people are going to be thrilled about getting the choice between one/no throughput options. I realise the goal is to mix both RNG and choice, but there'd be no choice to make in that scenario.
08/04/2017 06:37 PMPosted by Aquerathe
I'm...even more confused...


TLDR:

Before the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you throw it away.

After the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you can plug it into the Netherlight Crucible and maybe get it anyway.

That's about all there is to it!
I'm concerned about how we'll be able to identify the extra bonuses that the crucible will open for each relic. My current understanding is that you'll need to physically go to the crucible in order to 'inspect' what the relic will have.

For a spec such as Windwalker where the trait is extremely important, I want to know what option the crucible will confer immediately. If you thought Reforging was bad because you had to hearth out of raid before you equip an item, this could be even worse.

Imagine needing to have the item looted to you (or traded, etc.), then hearth / teleport to the Crucible to inspect the relic just to *find out if this item is actually an upgrade*. Now take that and multiply it by however many people in your raid can use the relic as each of you say 'Hey, it might be an upgrade for me! *5 minutes later* oops, sorry its actually not guys. Who else wants a shot on this?'
08/04/2017 06:37 PMPosted by Aquerathe
I'm...even more confused...


TLDR:

Before the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you throw it away.

After the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you can plug it into the Netherlight Crucible and maybe get it anyway.

That's about all there is to it!


That is exactly the problem Lore... "MAYBE".
No more RNG please.
08/04/2017 06:47 PMPosted by Aldeen
Edit: Is there some guarantee that we'll get at least one throughput option in this row? Are they all going to be throughput? I can't imagine a lot of people are going to be thrilled about getting the choice between one/no throughput options.


This is my question too.

How do we 'see' the options for any given relic?

Will others be able to 'see' if a relic drops in a raid what that relic might 'turn into' in the rank 3 traits?

I can't imagine if this is individual, and locked behind the netherlight UI, that it will end well for raid loot distribution? Are we all supposed to go to the crucible and round robin the relic to see who it RNGs out 'best' for in terms of base trait + bonus RNG trait options?

Will the process of identifying which traits can roll, cause the relic to be bound to you or otherwise untradeable?

I assume the rank 3 traits in the crucible are rolled at the time the item drops- might you put in a system where we can 'reroll' the rank 3 traits for any given relic? We already are beholden to the relic dropping at all, then the ilvl of the relic, then the base trait, and now the 4th level of which rank 3 netherlight traits are rolled?? It's too much stacked RNG even if overall it might make relics more readily available given more relics might end up as 'decent' instead of 'trash', but very, very few are going to be 'amazeballs' (with a top tier base trait and another favorable RNG level 3 trait) and I'm sure that is what you are going to get the most negative backlash on- too much stacked RNG, even if it can occasionally benefit you- it's really unlikely to benefit you where everyone really wants it to; namely getting 2 desirable throughput traits in a high ilvl relic.

Edit- BTW Lore, thanks for posting a thread seeking direct feedback, more of this type of engagement please.
wooooooot more rng boys!!!
Will there be any way to "preview" what traits a relic will grant without needing to go to the Netherlight Forge? More importantly, will the live version of the Netherlight Forge force you to make a relic drop "soulbound" in order to view the traits?
08/04/2017 06:53 PMPosted by Lore
08/04/2017 06:37 PMPosted by Aquerathe
I'm...even more confused...


TLDR:

Before the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you throw it away.

After the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you can plug it into the Netherlight Crucible and maybe get it anyway.

That's about all there is to it!


Is there a fully functional version on the ptr where i can log in and use the crucible with everything unlocked to get a better feel for the system?

Between the podcast, this forum post and the wowhead calculator. It feels like a system that is going to really frustrate not only individuals but full raid teams who like to optimize.
any chance we could have video explaining the whole process?
Are you not concerned about the additional random factors introduced in this system complicating an already complex equation? Starting easy with the bonus relics traits, many traits are better balanced now, but a plurality of specs still have extreme outliers, like the BM hunter above. We already hunt for better TFs of our best relics, is this just not making a difficult problem worse?

Now my real concern, tier 2, the holy and shadow choices. Where do I even start? Not only are we dealing with which trait we want, we have to know differential calculus to assess a new relic? Is it worth getting the better of the tier 2 choices and accepting a lesser trait? These two choices which each can roll one of six random skills. Are the procs strong enough to take over the passives? Do they synergize with any of my spec's abilities? If I get my best relic TF to the max but I roll all the worst possible choices for the Crucible, should I feel awful?

RNG on RNG on RNG is not the way to let us advance our artifacts.
My question is, the "shadow and light" traits seem to be random (from a bucket of available options.) Are these always random, and are they determined on a relic by relic basis, or are they random from the same relic. Same goes for the three "Bronze" traits.

E.G: I kill Demonic inquisition, get a relic plug it in my weapon has less than ideal Shadow/Light (and Bronze) traits. I get the "same" relic the following week (Equal ilvl). If i plug it into the Crucible will it have the exact same shadow/light options, and 3 Bronze traits to choose from or different ones?
08/04/2017 06:53 PMPosted by Lore
Before the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you throw it away.

To bounce off this, the problem people have isn't a worry that it will be worse than before patch in an absolute way (i.e., your character is worse off numerically), but that it will be worse in a relative way (i.e., your character has more hoops to jump through, more randomness to deal with).

The objections I have to the system are really hard to explain, because, no, it's not worse in an absolute way -- but it seems like it's going to feel really, really bad.

As things are, I have a trait balance that looks like this:Trait 1 ~= Trait 2 > 4 (!!) ilvls in weapon >>> every other traitSo I absolutely will be strongly encouraged by the system to repeatedly fish for relics that have one of those two traits on the relic, and the other randomly rolled. I'll also have to turn down weapon upgrade of up to around seven weapon item levels in favour of trait combinations.

And it sounds like you have to go back to the Crucible constantly to find out what you get from a new relic, even if it's the same damn relic you have equipped. Which both means dealing with handing out gear in a raid (or trading a piece of gear you can't use) and getting a new relic ready-to-use will be an enormous pain in the !@#.

Basically, the short of it isn't that people think their characters will literally be worse off, but they feel like the entire system is going to be a massive, annoying pain to deal with from the perspective of deciding what is/isn't an upgrade, distributing loot, and having items ready-to-use immediately upon dropping.

(And, last I checked, you had to pick Shadow trait for DPS always since the Holy ones sometimes just didn't give DPS benefits, but Shadow always does. I assume that's going to be fixed, but that's an enormous oversight even before it goes live. Especially if the choices are hard to change.)

Edit: I think about half the problems I have with the system, maybe a bit more, could be solved if there's a "Pocket Nether Crucible" item that allows full access to the system in the field. The other half of my problems are to do with requiring trait fishing constantly, but at least if I could easily check if a relic fished those traits it wouldn't be quite as horrid.
Are the trees completely random? As in, can DPS get shield/ healing abilities on the 2nd tier?
Are the traits on the third tier random from the 4/4 pool or only benefitial traits?
How will it work with Master Looter? Do I need to heart after every relic I get to check if its tree is good for me or will I be able to see that from anywhere?
If a tree is bad on a relic I receive from Master Looter will I be able to trade it after I see it is a bad tree?
How to you plan to not have people having to roll every week for new relics just to get better trees?
How do you plan on not having someone feel bad for getting a higher ilvl relic but with a terrible tree?
This entire idea just seems like more RNG on top of RNG.

Please just Path of the Titans that away.
It would be nice if you could just do this in the field rather than having to go to the crucible. I think it would be a bit inconvenient to get a new relic drop in a raid and not really be able to use it until you visit the crucible and see if it's even an upgrade based on its rolls.

Once the traits are rolled by previewing the relic, does the relic get soulbound? Or can you trade it? If you can, does it keep that original roll post-trade or does it get re-rolled for the new user?

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