The Netherlight Crucible And You

7.3 PTR Feedback
Prev 1 11 12 13 22 Next
I am a long time player and haven't posted in a very long time...I had to log in and just throw my sentiment in that this is a bad implementation.

2 Trait relics were exciting for us players because it meant that there would, hopefully, be less of a chance of us getting a bad trait or useless relic. It 'simplified' the process (once again, hopefully) for us to get what we need other than that 'one boss' in a raid. Key word here simplified.

This current system does the opposite, it puts more RNG and more competition between players and will be more unneeded pressure to optimize gear. Even for the Heroic pushers like my guild, we will have clashing interests on every relic drop.

I like where your head is at Blizz, more power behind relics and giving the player choices is usually a good thing, but this overcomplicates an already RNG laden and complicated system. I hope there is other iterations of this idea and it can be successfully implemented with less RNG and less layers of complications.
08/09/2017 06:20 PMPosted by Primeheart
giving the player choices is usually a good thing, but this overcomplicates an already RNG laden and complicated system. I hope there is other iterations of this idea and it can be successfully implemented with less RNG and less layers of complications.


Except this implementation gives the player choice between RNG outcomes...so basically, it's still RNG with an illusion of choice.
08/09/2017 06:20 PMPosted by Primeheart
2 Trait relics were exciting for us players because it meant that there would, hopefully, be less of a chance of us getting a bad trait or useless relic.
I don't agree with this. It was the exact same feeling as 1 trait relics. Don't forget, you're only going from 1 trait to 2 traits once, most of the time you'd be going from 2 traits to 2 traits. The decisions are still the same. You're still at the same dilemma of deciding more complex upgrades, since you've added more increments of power. You will not feel satisfied that a 2-trait relic has 1 possible good trait, since there are 2-trait relics with 2-good traits that you will favor, and often replace. 2-trait relics create "placeholder" relics that have very moderate if not meaningless powergains. They've added more increments of power, not, more power. They've added "more relics". It's now harder to get your BIS, because there are more possible combinations to roll.

Instead of deciding if it is: ">ilvl>trait; >ilvl<Trait; <ilvl>Trait"
you're deciding: ">ilvl>1trait>2trait; >ilvl>1trait<2trait; >ilvl<1trait>2trait; >ilvl<1trait<2trait;" If that looks overcomplicated... that's because it is--which is why 2-traits were scrapped.

The netherlight crucible has this exact same problem, but they've also added RNG to their procs (as the solution...) In fairness, the complexity is mostly irrelevant when the proc forces a soulbind, since the "time" element is removed. It's just a matter of whether this is healthy for player-interaction, master/group looting, and if the complexity is needed (which, is isn't needed, and it's not healthy at all. thus the pushback)
Do you guys hear that? It's the sound of blue crickets chirping...
Okay, here's a first pass at some answers. Thanks for all the discussion so far.

Q: Why are you adding this system? What’s with the RNG?

A: The Netherlight Crucible (aside from being an important part of the 7.3 storyline) is intended to help with an issue with Relic availability that players have been reporting for some time now. As Ion explained during our last Q&A, there are technical issues with the way Relics were built that limit which bonus traits can be available from raids. This has caused a number of raiders to feel as though their best bet is to run Mythic Keystone dungeons constantly in the hopes of having a Relic with their ideal bonus trait drop (and Titanforge for a high item level).

Those who were following development of Patch 7.2 may recall an earlier take on an improvement for this issue, where we experimented with adding a single, randomized second bonus trait to Relics. Ultimately, we decided that was the wrong approach, and wanted a system that put a little more control in players’ hands. So, while the Netherlight Crucible does still have an element of randomness, it presents you with several options to choose from.

To be clear: we believe that having some element of randomness is important. Our goal was not to simply allow players to choose the precise bonus traits they wanted (you already do that, more or less, when spending Artifact Power). We still want there to be those exciting moments where a Relic gives you a great outcome. The Netherlight Crucible is intended to make Relics more valuable on average, not to make all Relics be equal value.

Q: Will I be able to trade Relics with other players to see who gets the best options at the Crucible?

A: No. Previewing a Relic at the Netherlight Crucible will bind it to your character and remove the ability to trade it. This is because those trait options don’t actually exist on the Relic until you attune it to the Crucible, in a process similar to enchanting a piece of gear. It also prevents raid teams from feeling like they need to send everyone who might be interested in a Relic back to the Vindicaar before continuing.

Q: Will the Netherlight Crucible work on Relics acquired prior to 7.3 release?

A: Yes. However, keep in mind that it will take some time (likely several weeks) to unlock the later stages of the Netherlight Crucible, where the additional bonus traits come in. We don’t expect that stockpiling Relics prior to 7.3 will give any real advantage in practice.

Q: Doesn’t this just mean I’ll want my best two traits on each Relic now?

A: For the hardcore min/maxer, yes, there will still be a “best” outcome for your Relic configuration. However, there are now more Relics that can achieve that state (as Relics with your second-best trait can now roll your best trait at the Crucible), and you’ll encounter fewer “bad” Relics along the way.

Q: Why do I have to go back to the Netherlight Crucible to upgrade my Relic? Didn’t you want to get away from mechanics like that?

A: Players often compare this to the old Reforging system, and our dislike of having to visit a vendor after each and every upgrade. That hasn’t changed. The Netherlight Crucible only affects Relics – you won’t need to visit the Crucible every time you pick up a new pair of boots.
More RNG in a game that can't be farmed like D3. Wonderful.
Yes we get that you feel that there has to be an element of randomness involved in loot in WoW. Its been that way forever but what people don't understand is why does there need to be additional randomness on top of the item even dropping and then titanforging. Why is it okay that relic ilvl can be nearly irrelevant in the face of extremely good or bad rolls depending on the class and strength of individual traits within the same raid tier or so of loot? We can already roll in a range of 25 item levels on top of the loot even dropping or not at the highest end and it gets more extreme the further you get away from bleeding edge content. Why do we also need random talent trees to go along with it?

It blows my mind that I never actually achieved full BiS before any of this !@#$ existed and somehow years and years later its not random enough. Did I get pretty damn close during the year long tiers? Yeah but it didn't actually happen. Adding random sockets, titanforging, three relics, and now relic talent trees feels like you're just adding bells and whistles to the RNG train for pretty much no reason. Especially when tiers don't even go on for that long this expansion.
This system disincentivizes people from trading relics won through PL and makes it impossible for teams using ML to know which player will benefit the most from a relic.

How do you address these concerns? What are your suggestions for how organized raid teams should approach relic loot distribution given this system?
And no offspec will receive a relic ever again.
08/10/2017 06:28 PMPosted by Madone
This system disincentivizes people from trading relics won through PL and makes it impossible for teams using ML to know which player will benefit the most from a relic.

How do you address these concerns? What are your suggestions for how organized raid teams should approach relic loot distribution given this system?


If the relic is an upgrade (with or without) your BiS trait then keep it...if it isn't an upgrade but it is for someone else, trade it if you wish. Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be - base your decision on what dropped not what it *might* become at the crucible. I think this system is great - a meh relic can become a great relic or a great relic can become even better.
The idea that I could take a relic that is "potentially" an upgrade for me over someone else that could use it, only to take it to the crucible to find out it isn't an upgrade feels like a rather bad plan.
To be clear: we believe that having some element of randomness is important.


Sure, its important but does it have to be in every aspect of the game?
08/10/2017 06:13 PMPosted by Lore
Okay, here's a first pass at some answers. Thanks for all the discussion so far.

Q: Why are you adding this system? What’s with the RNG?

A: The Netherlight Crucible (aside from being an important part of the 7.3 storyline) is intended to help with an issue with Relic availability that players have been reporting for some time now. As Ion explained during our last Q&A, there are technical issues with the way Relics were built that limit which bonus traits can be available from raids. This has caused a number of raiders to feel as though their best bet is to run Mythic Keystone dungeons constantly in the hopes of having a Relic with their ideal bonus trait drop (and Titanforge for a high item level).

Those who were following development of Patch 7.2 may recall an earlier take on an improvement for this issue, where we experimented with adding a single, randomized second bonus trait to Relics. Ultimately, we decided that was the wrong approach, and wanted a system that put a little more control in players’ hands. So, while the Netherlight Crucible does still have an element of randomness, it presents you with several options to choose from.

To be clear: we believe that having some element of randomness is important. Our goal was not to simply allow players to choose the precise bonus traits they wanted (you already do that, more or less, when spending Artifact Power). We still want there to be those exciting moments where a Relic gives you a great outcome. The Netherlight Crucible is intended to make Relics more valuable on average, not to make all Relics be equal value.

Q: Will I be able to trade Relics with other players to see who gets the best options at the Crucible?

A: No. Previewing a Relic at the Netherlight Crucible will bind it to your character and remove the ability to trade it. This is because those trait options don’t actually exist on the Relic until you attune it to the Crucible, in a process similar to enchanting a piece of gear. It also prevents raid teams from feeling like they need to send everyone who might be interested in a Relic back to the Vindicaar before continuing.

Q: Will the Netherlight Crucible work on Relics acquired prior to 7.3 release?

A: Yes. However, keep in mind that it will take some time (likely several weeks) to unlock the later stages of the Netherlight Crucible, where the additional bonus traits come in. We don’t expect that stockpiling Relics prior to 7.3 will give any real advantage in practice.

Q: Doesn’t this just mean I’ll want my best two traits on each Relic now?

A: For the hardcore min/maxer, yes, there will still be a “best” outcome for your Relic configuration. However, there are now more Relics that can achieve that state (as Relics with your second-best trait can now roll your best trait at the Crucible), and you’ll encounter fewer “bad” Relics along the way.

Q: Why do I have to go back to the Netherlight Crucible to upgrade my Relic? Didn’t you want to get away from mechanics like that?

A: Players often compare this to the old Reforging system, and our dislike of having to visit a vendor after each and every upgrade. That hasn’t changed. The Netherlight Crucible only affects Relics – you won’t need to visit the Crucible every time you pick up a new pair of boots.


So basically we're getting another "you think you do, but you don't" answers. We really don't like RNG, and that's something that we're 100% certain about. This system is just another chain in the link that people hate about this expansion. And I use the word hate very strongly because that's the emotion we're feeling, not the emotion we "think" we're feeling. We hated Warlords and we hate the systems portion of Legion where you're forcing endless RNG AND Grinding on us.
08/10/2017 06:13 PMPosted by Lore
As Ion explained during our last Q&A, there are technical issues with the way Relics were built that limit which bonus traits can be available from raids.


"But instead of fixing that, we're just saying !@#$ you and adding more RNG."

08/10/2017 06:13 PMPosted by Lore
Ultimately, we decided that was the wrong approach, and wanted a system that put a little more control in players’ hands.


And so you make one that the player has... zero control over.

Less control over than the previous idea, even, because this %^-*ball of a system can roll utility traits, which the previous dual-trait mechanic could not (per your Q&As), making this even worse.

Why do you have to lie? Just say that RNG makes you more money and that's all you see your customer base as - fleshy revenue sources.

This also completely glosses over the RNG in the second tier, where things like Light Speed and Master of Shadows are so far and away better than the garbage damage procs that relics that don't roll these are also going to be garbage, which you still haven't justified.
08/10/2017 06:13 PMPosted by Lore
So, while the Netherlight Crucible does still have an element of randomness, it presents you with several options to choose from.

Saying we have options is like saying you read / value our feedback.
08/10/2017 06:35 PMPosted by Xcitiing
To be clear: we believe that having some element of randomness is important.


Sure, its important but does it have to be in every aspect of the game?


Agreed. There's randomness in the relic even dropping. It'd be like if tier gear rolled different stats each time you used the token instead of the set two each piece has.
08/10/2017 06:13 PMPosted by Lore
To be clear: we believe that having some element of randomness is important. Our goal was not to simply allow players to choose the precise bonus traits they wanted (you already do that, more or less, when spending Artifact Power). We still want there to be those exciting moments where a Relic gives you a great outcome. The Netherlight Crucible is intended to make Relics more valuable on average, not to make all Relics be equal value.


Look, here's the problem with wanting RNG in this manner: It's one thing to get excited the weapon or shoulders for your class finally dropped off the raid boss, or when you win a roll for a vanity item like a mount or pet. But when you add random drops for the relics, and then add on randomized traits for them, it creates a problem where players are confused as to what is actually a good upgrade or makes the whole process more frustrating for them. Now if the crucible was something where it was more like an enchantment table where we got to apply a trait of our choice to the relic, I'd be jumping out of my seat in joy. And on another note, just because you will only be visiting the crucible for relics and not every gear drop compared to reforging, does not mean it's an excuse. The point is that there is still a mechanic you introduced that disrupts the flow of gameplay for raiders.
Wow.. the delusional state you guys are in.

The !@#$storm that's gonna come when this goes beyond PTR and the masses chime in.

Blizzard, You are not prepared.
Q: Doesn’t this just mean I’ll want my best two traits on each Relic now?

A: For the hardcore min/maxer, yes, there will still be a “best” outcome for your Relic configuration. However, there are now more Relics that can achieve that state (as Relics with your second-best trait can now roll your best trait at the Crucible), and you’ll encounter fewer “bad” Relics along the way.

Again, no.

There are NOT MORE RELICS THAT CAN ACHIEVE BIS. STOP DOING WRONG MATH.

Current System:

10% Chance Bis Trait Drops
Overall 10% chance of Bis Relic.

New System:

10% Chance Bis Trait Drops
~33% Chance Second Best Trait Rolls
~20% Chance Best Bonuses Rolls

(0.1)(0.33)(0.2)=0.0066 or 0.7% chance of a Best Relic

But Wait! You Get TWO CHANCES!

1.4% chance of a Best Relic.

Lets Remove The Bonus Abilities, because why not.
(0.1)(0.33) = 0.03 or 3.3%
Two chances...
Roughly 6.6% for a Best Relic not 10%.

For anyone that has a problem with the base 10% that I chose you can remove it from the equation because ultimately if you are shooting for first or second trait, that opens you up to double the traits. but your rng is from a pool of 9 traits in which you can choose from 3. Meaning that not matter what you can only pick from 1/3. So no matter how it breaks down, you will always have a lower chance of getting your best in slot after patch, than you did before patch. Blizzard claiming otherwise is just handwaving and magic.

YOUR AVERAGE RELIC WILL BE BETTER, YOUR BIS RELIC CHANCES ARE WORSE, PERIOD.
08/08/2017 11:12 AMPosted by Skîtzo
08/04/2017 06:53 PMPosted by Lore
...

TLDR:

Before the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you throw it away.

After the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you can plug it into the Netherlight Crucible and maybe get it anyway.

That's about all there is to it!

That is not at all how this is actually going to work. You now need to find a Relic with a BiS trait AND have it randomly roll BiS traits in the crucible. I don't understand how such a massive oversight like this could be made.


Pretty much this. Enough with the neverending rng grinding.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum