Marksman Damage

Arenas
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Tbh I feel like if disengage broke roots baseline, you could use the talent that makes your crits have a chance to reset it instead of postehaste. That of itself would make mobility better which would help more than +damage would.

I think it would also be worth looking into buffing explosive and piercing. They're both like -50/-80% damage in pvp which kind of forces everyone into the sidewinder spec. Piercing and explosive are much harder to use and make the spec more complicated and setup oriented because of vulnerable.
For the sake of simplicity, since they aren't going to do any class/spec redesigns until next expansion.

What if windburst did nature damage?

Would increase damage against plate
Can be LoSd
Has a CD
Has a cast time
Requires Hunter to stand still to use

Seems this could be a nice boost that would be easy for the devs to implement, and play against?

Just tossing that out there, lord knows the spec needs more overall changes, but still needs something/anything now as well.
09/16/2017 07:45 PMPosted by Ryutiz
09/16/2017 06:58 PMPosted by Sürval
Sucks that our damage blows so much that were only viable when Rets and ferals do op dmg.


mms damage isnt bad, it is only very extreme when it comes to the armor spectrum doing next to nothing on plate/mail but hitting leather/cloth quite hard


Ye pmuch. I don't ever feel like our dmg is bad just the way we deal it. Even last season too MM felt good with ferals not being bas, it's just legion MM is actually a dampener spec not really a cleave/aggro spec

It only starts to feel like a cleave and aggro spec when partners are op otherwise it's just all about being defensive and PvEing
09/17/2017 05:23 AMPosted by Dillon
09/16/2017 07:45 PMPosted by Ryutiz
...

mms damage isnt bad, it is only very extreme when it comes to the armor spectrum doing next to nothing on plate/mail but hitting leather/cloth quite hard


Ye pmuch. I don't ever feel like our dmg is bad just the way we deal it. Even last season too MM felt good with ferals not being bas, it's just legion MM is actually a dampener spec not really a cleave/aggro spec

It only starts to feel like a cleave and aggro spec when partners are op otherwise it's just all about being defensive and PvEing


Exactly, I feel like as marksman finishing a target for the kill is extremely difficult a lot of the times.
09/17/2017 06:10 AMPosted by Sürval
09/17/2017 05:23 AMPosted by Dillon
...

Ye pmuch. I don't ever feel like our dmg is bad just the way we deal it. Even last season too MM felt good with ferals not being bas, it's just legion MM is actually a dampener spec not really a cleave/aggro spec

It only starts to feel like a cleave and aggro spec when partners are op otherwise it's just all about being defensive and PvEing


Exactly, I feel like as marksman finishing a target for the kill is extremely difficult a lot of the times.


Well that's not necessarily a problem with gameplay, it's still a good spec just not a fun or well designed one imo
Can we have MoP class design back pls
09/17/2017 07:09 AMPosted by Dillon
09/17/2017 06:10 AMPosted by Sürval
...

Exactly, I feel like as marksman finishing a target for the kill is extremely difficult a lot of the times.


Well that's not necessarily a problem with gameplay, it's still a good spec just not a fun or well designed one imo


Even if they just did band aid fixes replaced sniper shot with kill shot. Buff black arrows damage In pvp so we have more magic damage. Give masters call back baseline.

I think those 3 changes would open up more comps for mm and make the spec feel a lot bette
Was playing cupid on my hunter the other night and i was like !@#$ i feel like him doing a lot of cleave and a lot of damage. Come to find out looking at details that i wasn't doing hardly any and my average hits were absolutely terrible. Really like playing my hunter but i just don't like doing little to no damage with CD's popped.
Tbh I feel like if disengage broke roots baseline, you could use the talent that makes your crits have a chance to reset it instead of posthaste. That of itself would make mobility better which would help more than +damage would.

I think it would also be worth looking into buffing explosive and piercing. They're both like -50/-80% damage in pvp which kind of forces everyone into the sidewinder spec. Piercing and explosive are much harder to use and make the spec more complicated and setup oriented because of vulnerable.


I agree with what I put in bold. Although patient sniper is my favorite talent because I like skillfully timing things, with the pace that arena is at (extremely fast), it's nearly impossible to reliably timed aimed shots regardless of what comp we're against. Our damage is only important in certain intervals of CC or heavy cleave comps and our only damage cooldown is Trueshot. This is why explosive/piercing shot would both be great things to have if they were buffed.

09/17/2017 07:11 AMPosted by ßlàçklístëð
Can we have MoP class design back pls


There's a lot that I liked about MoP/Cata Marksman, primarily being able to cast while moving and having Chimaera Shot on an 8 sec cooldown and it being Nature damage basically guaranteed us having damage during CC chains.

The issue with Marksman is more than simply damage. It's the pace of Arena itself. Legion Arena is extremely fast and you're either playing a dampening comp or a short game melee cleave comp, there is no in-between. Marksman relies on standing in place to turret damage with short duration, instant CC with a long cooldown. This makes us useful in the way of being able to CC quickly, but if we don't have adequate damage during the duration of the CC, we lose by default. This will happen every time UNLESS our partner has very high burst damage or nearly unhealable cleave damage (which is why Cupid is basically Marksmans only comp).

It's a very simple equation
"What has a lot of unstoppable cleave or single target with instant CC?"
Rets, DKS, Ferals,

What comps work in Legion with Marksman?
Jungle, Cupid, Possibly PHD (which Jellybeans played in the tournament)

This explanation is perfectly demonstrated with Survival playing Thug and it goes like this,
Stun, Trap, Aspect of the Eagle + explosive/flanking strike

Instant CC with high burst during the duration.

With Marksman, you spam CC and are forced to stand in one spot, turreting aimed shots hoping you don't get LoSd while also crossing your fingers that your partner does 70% of the damage during your bursting shot/trap duration while cringing at your squirt gun damage because of earth shield.

We have S3 where both MM and Rets had instant CC (had scatter and bursting shot and Patient Sniper was 10% every second), paired with a Disc (the most offensive healing spec) for Purge/Damage/Fear/MC/Premonition. Marksman damage was a bit on the high end but ONLY because we had spray&pray, our single target damage was perfect. Cupid dominated the ladder that season. I barely missed Glad by around 20pts on Horde, (lfging healers) but guess what comp we lost 80% of our games to? Cupid, not Multiglad/R1 Cupids but ALLIANCE cupids. When you have a mirror and 2 comps that rely on instant CC, what's the only thing that beats it? Having human trinket/adaptation which flatlined the enemies CC chain and basically gave you free points.

Tl:dr
Marksman needs a minimum of consistent single target damage to start and semi-reliable burst damage for it's cc chains.
Hunter comps are completely reliant on what's the most OP DPS during that season, without them we are a 3/10 class and you'll only see MM with FOTM comps made by our DPS partner.
09/08/2017 12:04 AMPosted by Zizilio
Outside of Trueshot and even during Trueshot vs rsham teams, marksman damage is unacceptable. When fighting plate, aimed shot hits for close to nothing, my marked shots come within 50k damage of my aimed shots and if you add earth shield on top of that, I might as well not even cast aimed shots.

Here's a screenshot of a 5min game with 80% uptime on vulnerable, the downtime would be lining behind a pillar.

http://imgur.com/a/CrAEo 262k average aimed shots
http://imgur.com/a/jKnZX 217k average marked shots
http://imgur.com/a/jh8a8 40k average crows ticks

The fix to this is kind of tricky, it's difficult to buff aimed to make it on par with other classes main abilities without making it to where it deletes mages.

Here's my ideas, feel free to add to it. I'm not asking for all of these to happen, just listing possible changes.
-Make windburst magical damage
-Significant buff to haste/crit template possibly with making quickshots 15%
-Make legacy of the windrunner procs magical damage
-Make careful aim to 65%
-Baseline buff to aimed shot and slight nerf to marked shot to avoid overpowered cleave in RBGS
-Buff Unerring Arrows Trait to 18% while nerfing marked shot

Edit:
If you look at Marksman representation, it's no where to be found on Arenamate.
http://imgur.com/a/xX736
There were only 2 Hunters who got R1 last season in the US. I dont think a single Marksman Hunter got rank 1 last season who didn't play survival for at least 70% of their games. (Maybe dilly but I dont know how outside of sniping)


Blame Cupid for people outside of other hunters not feeling your pain but basking in it.
09/27/2017 12:30 PMPosted by Mcfaceroller
Blame Cupid for people outside of other hunters not feeling your pain but basking in it.


thats a terrible way to think
if you kept every spec unviable that has had a toxic comp, pretty sure there'd be no specs left
also this isn't asking for flat buffs its mostly asking for a redesign like sub got
09/27/2017 12:30 PMPosted by Mcfaceroller
Blame Cupid for people outside of other hunters not feeling your pain but basking in it


People who are unable to analyze exactly what's causing something to be overpowered blow up the forums with complaints and Blizzard routinely nerfs abilities that don't need to be nerfed and buffs abilities that were either already strong or fine where they were.

Cupid isn't strong because of Marksman, it's strong because of Rets. This is an interminable issue with Blizzard balancing PvP.

WoD:
"BM is so broken, they just pop every cd and spam purge with tranq shot"
(Bestial Wrath reduced the focus cost of all abilities including tranq shot)
Blizzards response: Tranq shot on an 8 sec cd followed by completely removing the ability

What they should have done is to not allow Tranq Shot to benefit from the reduced focus cost.

Legion S1:
"Frost DKS are so broken, they're just one shotting everything"
Chill streak was doing unhealable damage
Blizzards response: Nerf everything that isn't the ability that's one shotting everyone

Legion S3:
"Cupid is so broken, we get cleaved down by unhealable damage"
Completely due to Divine Hammer on top of Divine Storm being magical damage while the Hunter spams sidewinders/marked shots which IS AOE DAMAGE
Blizzards response:
Nerf Vulnerable to 30% (was 100%) this destroyed our single target damage
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=187131/vulnerable
Nerf Patient Sniper from 10% to 6% (Single Target damage)
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=234588/patient-sniper
Sidewinders damage increased by 20%. (AoE Damage)


These nerfs neutralized our single target damage but kept our AoE basically the same, which is why the only time you'll see Marksman Hunters is where they can spam AoE (RBGS/Cupid).

What they should have done:
Nerf Vulnerable from 100% to 75%, remove spray and pray (they did this), nerf marked shot by 35%, nerf aimed shot by 10%, buff careful aim to 30% increased chance above 75% HP and 60% damage.
-Buff AMoC significantly, it ticks for like 35k
-Buff Black Arrow
-Buff Explosive Shot and/or reduce its cooldown
-Buff Piercing shot or reduce its cooldown to 15 seconds in PvP
-Make Sniper Shot an instant cast with a 20% focus cost and do magical damage on a 6 second cooldown
-Buff our haste template
-Something like I mentioned in the original post.

-Make Divine Storm/Divine Hammer do 70% less damage to secondary targets, make Templars Verdict do physical damage and buff crusader strike.

Any of these would be better than what they've done. When you have a comp that putting out damage of which 80% is unstoppable AoE, you nerf the AoE not the single target.
09/27/2017 12:30 PMPosted by Mcfaceroller
Blame Cupid for people outside of other hunters not feeling your pain but basking in it.


Btw, as someone who has benefited from playing this comp and have played Hunter for 10+ years, I'd rather play any other comp in the game than Cupid in any expansion. It's not a fun comp to play at all, it's completely scripted and brainless and leaves no room for theorycrafting. Even when it's a T1 comp and I know I'd win nearly every game, 80% of the time I pass on the invite.

You really won't find any decently experienced Hunter who favors this comp other than maybe Phierz. It's really just our only option until Marksman gets the changes it needs.
Just Give me

Chimera Shot
Kill shot
Masters call

And ill be happy
zizilio no offense but you should actually keep up with hunters because this is wildly inaccurate

09/27/2017 01:10 PMPosted by Zizilio
Legion S3:
"Cupid is so broken, we get cleaved down by unhealable damage"
Completely due to Divine Hammer on top of Divine Storm being magical damage while the Hunter spams sidewinders/marked shots which IS AOE DAMAGE
Blizzards response:
Nerf Vulnerable to 30% (was 100%) this destroyed our single target damage
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=187131/vulnerable
Nerf Patient Sniper from 10% to 6% (Single Target damage)
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=234588/patient-sniper
Sidewinders damage increased by 20%. (AoE Damage)


09/27/2017 01:10 PMPosted by Zizilio
These nerfs neutralized our single target damage but kept our AoE basically the same, which is why the only time you'll see Marksman Hunters is where they can spam AoE (RBGS/Cupid).


the only actual change there is the sidewinders buff, our damage otherwise was completely unchanged rofl

they nerfed vulnerable stuff across the board and BUFFED AIMED SHOT significantly to offset the change which essentially resulted in no damage change at all, except a huge buff to damage if vulnerable wasnt up (due to rng nature and pve)

this change was basically a quality of life change, so that we are less reliant on vulnerable (however it still isnt recommended that you do any damage outside of the debuff)
09/27/2017 02:31 PMPosted by Ryutiz
zizilio no offense but you should actually keep up with hunters because this is wildly inaccurate


https://imgur.com/a/s5SQ9

Vulnerable from 100% to 30%
Aimed shot +55%
Patient Sniper from 10% to 6%

Before nerf: 70% (patient sniper) +100% (vulnerable=170% total)
right?

After Nerf: 30+42=72% bonus+ 55% =127%

170-127=43% loss after the 7.2.5 changes.,
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not the best at math but I can confidently tell you that compared to S3, our aimed shots don't hit for anything and the screenshots in the original post show that.
09/27/2017 02:59 PMPosted by Zizilio
09/27/2017 02:31 PMPosted by Ryutiz
zizilio no offense but you should actually keep up with hunters because this is wildly inaccurate


https://imgur.com/a/s5SQ9

Vulnerable from 100% to 30%
Aimed shot +55%
Patient Sniper from 10% to 6%

Before nerf: 70% (patient sniper) +100% (vulnerable=170% total)
right?

After Nerf: 30+42=72% bonus+ 55% =127%

170-127=43% loss after the 7.2.5 changes.,
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not the best at math but I can confidently tell you that compared to S3, our aimed shots don't hit for anything and the screenshots in the original post show that.


doesnt matter, i had both ptr and live open AT THE SAME TIME when the change hit ptr and the damage difference was almost only in single/double digits
if you just give mm a flat dmg buff mages will literally not exist and we will still do no damage to warriors

that is simply not the answer
also i went ahead and looked at your screenshot again

you are using numbers that were on an arms warrior that i can only assume was in defensive stance, because that is what our damage looks like on an arms warrior yes

i have crit rogues, demon hunters, ferals etc for 800k. i have crit a mage or two and a handful of warlocks for 1m.

if you just outright buff mms damage, those numbers will be WAY too high for what is acceptable pvp damage and STILL be too low on an arms warrior. i trust that you can see the issue here.
09/27/2017 04:10 PMPosted by Ryutiz
doesnt matter, i had both ptr and live open AT THE SAME TIME when the change hit ptr and the damage difference was almost only in single/double digits


Nothing has changed between last patch and this one, I ran the same tests on PTR a day before the current patch hit and you're right, and so are the notes. These changes were done in 7.2.5, not the recent PTR. If you did this test with the PvP template enabled with the exact same controls and compared 7.2/7.2.5, even then anecdotes don't disprove the evidence I've presented throughout this thread. I wouldn't spend this much time on something without spending countless hours researching everything for myself.

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