No flying in Argus PT3

General Discussion
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And honestly, if that is the only standard, is Blizzards motto really, "hey as long as they haven't unsubbed!"?


To be fair, Heroes of the Storm is still not doing to well and they keep cranking out new characters and maps almost every month now.

So most likely even if more people unsub, they will still produce content for WoW.
(Warning.. Wall of Text incoming)

I love the people who are saying "fun" isn't a good enough reason to keep flying. Funny.. Aren't you people playing this game simply because you find it fun? How would any of you feel if someone came along and just took this game away from you for "reasons" that you felt weren't valid? You don't get to define what is fun or not for other people. Being dismissive of and writing off parts of this game that's fun for others, but not for you, instantly makes your own personal likes about this game get called into question as well.

I also really dislike this level of contradiction I am seeing from the anti-flyers. Your point of view on the matter becomes null and void when you accuse others of exaggerating when they say "A lot of people" Or "Some people" then turn around and do the exact same thing. If you are going to dismiss someones point due to assumptions they make, then you have nothing to back you up when you make assumptions based on what other people are doing also. Here's the kicker.. at least the pro-flyers have the the ability to lean on the fact that when it comes to flying, the amount of people who truly want and enjoy it, was large enough that it caused the dev team to do a 180 and add it back in after they said it would be gone. Don't come back with "Many people were leaving for reasons. Not just flying" because out of all the reasons people gave for why they were leaving, why was Flight the ONLY thing they brought back so quickly to keep people from leaving? Think about that.

This dev team will hold on to their guns and keep things out of the game they don't like even if there is an uproar about it. Only a true major spike of subs loss stating "Flying" as the reason would get them to return something to the game they don't want there. So at least the pro-flyers have that bit of evidence to call on when they say "A lot people want flying". So please stop choosing to dismiss that evidence. When you do it blows holes in your entire argument.

Speaking of Devs, another lovely fact for some people not trusting or having faith in them making good choices for the game could be related to the fact that this team has YET to make a successful game and/or expansion so far. This team is responsible for the horrible state of D3. This team is responsible for WoD. So please point out where their game designing choices turned into them making a successful game? Why is anyone blindly following their many choices for what makes this game "Good" when they have nothing to back that up with?! No.. they do NOT always know what is best for the game. NOT when it comes to needing a large amount of people to stay subbed so that the game stays alive. They have already tanked this game once. So no.. I don't think they are good at knowing whats best for this game in some cases. Which means I, and others who are posting here, WILL challenge the Dev team when we feel they are doing something that will affect the game play and player happiness for a large group of people. (Again.. I say large because yes.. i am assuming it was large enough to get the team to change their minds so fast and bring it back)

I stopped playing this game back in December 2016.. Check my profile if you'd like. It shows there is a point I clearly did leave this game and wasn't playing. I pay by month to month because I don't trust this game to be good enough to pay any more then by monthly.. So yes, me not playing the game meant they got no sub money from me. I don't pay for a large time in advance. I came back cause I enjoy a lot of the Holiday events around this time of year, so I did want to do those. (I have a lot of achievements left and I do miss the OLD content a lot) I also didn't come to the forums here and QQ about the fact that I was leaving. I AM one of those unhappy people that will leave cause of flying. Keep in mind.. People who leave the game for whatever reason CAN NOT post here. So all those people who DID cancel can not come here and make their voices heard! Its easy to say "no one hates this since the voices here are so low" Take away the ability for these unhappy people to speak and YEAH it will appear that way now wont it?!!?

I won't do daily grinds over and over if I don't have flying. Why? Because it causes a huge level of burnout and frustration to the way I play the game for myself. Doing my daily grind is a chore. I used to get them out of the way, so that I could then go do stuff in the game that is fun! Draw out my grind for chores and limit the amount of free time I have in the game for fun, and I will unsub faster then you can say fel. This game is not worth being forced to be annoyed doing things I don't enjoy. Let me make you go from NYC to LA and tell you you can't get on a plane to get there. And force all these things in your way to make your travel time take longer, and see if you won't hate it and ask to just please be allowed to use a plane. (Planes are prefect example. They are used to both transport AND fun. Take it away as a transport because "We have cars. Planes are pointless other than to get us from A to B faster" affects the other group of people who use planes for personal enjoying and fun!)

"Skipping content" is subjective. I also skip content when I delete quests from my list and never touch them. There are soooo many different ways of skipping so many different forms of content in this game, that hyper focusing on flying is so pointless and stupid! Why this team is dumb enough to poke the flying bear AGAIN this expac is amazing to me. They should have been fired over it last time. It could have ended up with Blizzard in a legal battle with a lot of paying customers. You can NOT keep lying to your customers, taking their money with promises that the things they want will be coming when you know its never going to. Ion straight up LIED to the players about flying and continued taking their money anyway. That is illegal. He's a lawyer... He should have known that! HOW he has a job still is astounding to me. Flat out lying, for any reason, should have been a reason for him to lose his job. He is lucky Blizzard makes so much money. Any other company would have fired him over that. He is creating a toxic, unhappy, untrustworthy relationship with customers and Blizzard. He should be fired for that alone.

So my point? I don't look at anyone who blindly agrees with the choices of this dev team as having a good enough reason to be blinding agreeing with everything they do because I don't trust a team that has failed at this, TWICE. I don't trust a team that acts the way this team asks. I can't believe these people are even screwing with Flying again... and I find it sad that people are copy pasting the VERY things Blizzard uses as excuses against flying, as IF you people freely formed the opinion years ago all on your own before this team said it in WoD. What's its like supporting people who utterly failed? Keep agreeing to everything they do... and watch this game be gone in a couple years. This team DOES NOT know how to make a successful game all the time. They make good and bad choices all the time. Wanting to ignore the bad choices are what will cause this game to crash and burn. They have great bones for this game. But they keep making some of the most stupid and lazy changes and excuses for changes. Having to resort to fake time gates and changing key elements for this game in a way to prolong how long it takes a player to do anything, shows they do NOT know how to make a game with good, long, content that will fill up our time. It's a sad way to program a game, and it's hurting them cause people are clearly able to see exactly what they are doing. Maybe if this team were honest instead of underhanded in how they handle things, i COULD get behind them. But using lame excuses for why A doesn't work, when you keep B,C,D, and E in the game that do the same thing, makes no sense to me. Flying does NOT break this game. It runs perfectly fine with it. Has for years. Don't break in on PURPOSE just to keep it out. (Argus) That's vindictive and just underhandedly making sure they get what they want in the end! I would totally understand if they said "We have the ability to make beautiful environments for you. But those are getting harder and harder to design in 3D with flying. (Frankly.. they have the money. They can do it. It just takes extra work and man power) Just be honest about why and I could understand. Lie and use lame points like "it skips content" Is NOT a valid reason no mater who tries to use that argument. Content is SUBJECTIVE and there are MAAAAAAAAAAAAAANY ways to skip content in this game. It's a lame reason that holds NO water what so ever. Stop using that as a reason. It doesn't work!

The end.. If flying WASN'T such a key drawing point to this game... then WHY are they selling flying mounts in the store for real money? People have paid real money for their mounts. Flying in game has always set this game apart from other MMOs. WHY on earth are they crippling themselves by taking it away and lowing their standards to bring them back down into an already over saturated field of MMO games with no flying, (WHICH ARE FREE! Or pay once and not also have a monthly fee)?

I'm a new voice in this thread who read through a lot of it, and who couldn't voice my opinion until I re-subbed which again shows, people who leave and aren't subbed are no longer able to voice their unhappy opinions. Which in affect gives off this false appearance that since "Not enough people are speaking out for flight here, Its clearly not cared about by a lot of players" When people who are unhappy leave, and this causes only the happy to to be left behind, you can not then go "SEE EVERYONE I SEE IS HAPPY SO ITS FINE!" No!.. what you are seeing are just the happy people who are left, because the unhappy ones are gone. The fact that people are not even aware of this, astounds me because they are trying to use the "Happy people i see" as a valid point when IT'S not, and never will be a complete honest representation of a large group as a whole. Not when only the happy people can stand here and speak, and the other half can't unless they stay subbed. This is me stating my opinion against the handling of flying right now, when I was not able to other wise. So anti-flyers STOP using the forums as a way to judge the amount of people who are unhappy. PEOPLE who left because they were unhappy with any part of this game CAN NOT SPEAK HERE UNLESS THEY ARE SUBBED and they usually aren't IF they left due to being unhappy!! Sorry for writing this wall of text but it needed to be said by someone NEW who can FINALLY speak her opinion FOR flight and that yes I WILL and have left this game because I can't use it. My thoughts and points about flight are drastically different then some people, but also are the same as others. This team does not make a good enough game for me to stay subbed when they start screwing up the parts of this game I found my enjoyment in. Keep telling people to "unsub and leave" is the fastest way to get this game into the land of F2P. Less income means less resources which means less quality. But no.. keep fighting so that things keep being taken away more and more from this game. Keep narrowing the "types" of customers you want to keep playing, by deleting parts of this game they enjoyed thus causing them to leave. That is the BEST way to kill this game off. And the people fighting for the deletion of ANYTHING major like flying is to some people, are just fighting for the death of this game. Cause that means anything else major that this team could start to see as bad, (which is anything that is still in the game) has the ability to be deleted if they feel like its dumb no mater who in the game thinks it not. (Dumb and pointless is again, very subjective to everyone) Support this behavior and you will be at fault for the failure and end of WoW. I HOPE you can walk away with pride knowing you helped caused the death of World of Warcraft. Have a nice day. :)
You can teleport to so many different sections, that flying is useless there.
09/24/2017 10:38 PMPosted by Dreadsong
Trouble is, Dranlord, we'll never know the sub numbers or any other metrics, because Blizz spat the dummy when they lost millions of subs and have refused to release the numbers anymore.

If that doesn't tell us sub numbers are dismal, I don't know what does - but it also demonstrates a 'bury-our-heads-in-the-sand' mentality and while they continue to screw players over in as many ways as possible.

I wonder if any shareholders - or their kids - read these forums.


Why should we care though how many players are playing the game? Does that effect how you feel about the game? Should we jump to another game if the sub count goes below a certain number?

Oh noes guys WoW hit under 1 million players we better stop playing otherwise the thing will happen.

Just play the game how you enjoy it. Just fly around Broken Isles and do World quests until the next expansion releases.
09/25/2017 06:42 AMPosted by Andrilynn
I love the people who are saying "fun" isn't a good enough reason to keep flying. Funny.. Aren't you people playing this game simply because you find it fun? How would any of you feel if someone came along and just took this game away from you for "reasons" that you felt weren't valid? You don't get to define what is fun or not for other people. Being dismissive of and writing off parts of this game that's fun for others, but not for you, instantly makes your own personal likes about this game get called into question as well.

I also really dislike this level of contradiction I am seeing from the anti-flyers. Your point of view on the matter becomes null and void when you accuse others of exaggerating when they say "A lot of people" Or "Some people" then turn around and do the exact same thing. If you are going to dismiss someones point due to assumptions they make, then you have nothing to back you up when you make assumptions based on what other people are doing also. Here's the kicker.. at least the pro-flyers have the the ability to lean on the fact that when it comes to flying, the amount of people who truly want and enjoy it, was large enough that it caused the dev team to do a 180 and add it back in after they said it would be gone. Don't come back with "Many people were leaving for reasons. Not just flying" because out of all the reasons people gave for why they were leaving, why was Flight the ONLY thing they brought back so quickly to keep people from leaving? Think about that.


Ill start here.

If someone were to tell me, I can't play WoW anymore because reasons, It honestly wouldn't effect me. Or if something happened that says I can't play anymore, it hoenstly wouldn't bother me.

Second of all, the whole, they brought back flying because of subs. No...the only proof that I have seen as to why they brought back flight in WoD was that three days prior to that announcement Square Enix announced Final Fantasy 14 Heavensward was getting flying mounts. Blizzard then had the knee jerk reaction, afraid that more players would go play that, decided to bring it back, but they also couldn't just give you flying. Well they could have but at a cost, and they know not everyone amassed millions of gold during WoD. So their alternative was actually better.

09/25/2017 06:42 AMPosted by Andrilynn
The end.. If flying WASN'T such a key drawing point to this game... then WHY are they selling flying mounts in the store for real money? People have paid real money for their mounts. Flying in game has always set this game apart from other MMOs. WHY on earth are they crippling themselves by taking it away and lowing their standards to bring them back down into an already over saturated field of MMO games with no flying, (WHICH ARE FREE! Or pay once and not also have a monthly fee)?


Because Blizzard likes making money and players like spending money on cosmetic items. Look at Overwatch and HotS and League, you don't need all those skins and whatnot, but you are able to spend real dollars to get those. Sure in those games you don't need to spend money to get them, but some players want them right away so they will pay money for them.

09/25/2017 06:42 AMPosted by Andrilynn
So my point? I don't look at anyone who blindly agrees with the choices of this dev team as having a good enough reason to be blinding agreeing with everything they do because I don't trust a team that has failed at this, TWICE. I don't trust a team that acts the way this team asks. I can't believe these people are even screwing with Flying again... and I find it sad that people are copy pasting the VERY things Blizzard uses as excuses against flying, as IF you people freely formed the opinion years ago all on your own before this team said it in WoD. What's its like supporting people who utterly failed? Keep agreeing to everything they do... and watch this game be gone in a couple years. This team DOES NOT know how to make a successful game all the time. They make good and bad choices all the time. Wanting to ignore the bad choices are what will cause this game to crash and burn. They have great bones for this game. But they keep making some of the most stupid and lazy changes and excuses for changes.


While I agree to some of this, especially on how they keep messing with things for the worst parts, they cannot appease every player. If there are 5 million players playing, some of them are going to be unhappy. Its just impossible to appease every single player playing the game.

09/25/2017 06:42 AMPosted by Andrilynn
Support this behavior and you will be at fault for the failure and end of WoW. I HOPE you can walk away with pride knowing you helped caused the death of World of Warcraft.


The only thing that will end WoW would be another debacle like 6.1 where the "MAJOR" content patch was a toy and social media add ons. Which to this day I keep having to remind myself that they have that. No one uses the twitter function as far as I am aware.

If anything that is what could have caused the sharp decline of subs during WoD.
Flying is really really necessary for those with limited time to play this game. Since Blizz doesnt seem to get it...I'll wait for it to return to the newest zone. My sub runs out and I'm not paying real money anymore. I'll keep the in-game gold ready for when blizz puts in flying. It seems Blizz loves time-sinks.
09/25/2017 07:13 AMPosted by Trumptastic
Flying is really really necessary for those with limited time to play this game. Since Blizz doesnt seem to get it...I'll wait for it to return to the newest zone. My sub runs out and I'm not paying real money anymore. I'll keep the in-game gold ready for when blizz puts in flying. It seems Blizz loves time-sinks.


Again they cannot appease every player.

there are people who cannot play in dungeons and raids do to a illness or handicap

there are people so socially awkward they can't do grouped content

there are people who can't play the game well enough to pvp

And yet they keep complaining that that Blizzard keeps adding in these things they can't do cause something in real life is preventing them from doing it correctly. Its not Blizzard's fault for doing this. They designed their expansion in a way to encourage players to tyry things they wouldn't normally do. Heck for people who don't like PvP you can do the PvP WQs and get honor for doing them.

But they cannot help every person who has a problem with everything in the game. They can't help it if you only have 2 hours a night to play, they will still make content the way they want cause its on their schedule.
Second of all, the whole, they brought back flying because of subs. No...the only proof that I have seen as to why they brought back flight in WoD was that three days prior to that announcement Square Enix announced Final Fantasy 14 Heavensward was getting flying mounts. Blizzard then had the knee jerk reaction, afraid that more players would go play that, decided to bring it back, but they also couldn't just give you flying.


There's no proof in your proof.

When has Blizzard ever jumped because of what another game was doing?
09/25/2017 08:10 AMPosted by Rollo
Second of all, the whole, they brought back flying because of subs. No...the only proof that I have seen as to why they brought back flight in WoD was that three days prior to that announcement Square Enix announced Final Fantasy 14 Heavensward was getting flying mounts. Blizzard then had the knee jerk reaction, afraid that more players would go play that, decided to bring it back, but they also couldn't just give you flying.


There's no proof in your proof.

When has Blizzard ever jumped because of what another game was doing?


I mean I found it funny that 3 days after Square announced it they announced theirs.

I know its coincidence but still.
09/25/2017 08:10 AMPosted by Rollo
Second of all, the whole, they brought back flying because of subs. No...the only proof that I have seen as to why they brought back flight in WoD was that three days prior to that announcement Square Enix announced Final Fantasy 14 Heavensward was getting flying mounts. Blizzard then had the knee jerk reaction, afraid that more players would go play that, decided to bring it back, but they also couldn't just give you flying.


There's no proof in your proof.

When has Blizzard ever jumped because of what another game was doing?

Actually, Blizzard has a history of releasing patches, expansions, betas, etc when other games are doing the same. They do it to lessen the hype of whatever other games are out there. Definitely not saying that's the case here, but it is absolutely reasonable that they would do it.
09/25/2017 08:10 AMPosted by Rollo
...

There's no proof in your proof.

When has Blizzard ever jumped because of what another game was doing?

Actually, Blizzard has a history of releasing patches, expansions, betas, etc when other games are doing the same. They do it to lessen the hype of whatever other games are out there. Definitely not saying that's the case here, but it is absolutely reasonable that they would do it.


One of the things they added was MAss looting which I think started in Rift.
[quote]
[quote]Second of all, the whole,
[quote="207577088471"]Actually, Blizzard has a history of releasing patches, expansions, betas, etc when other games are doing the same. They do it to lessen the hype of whatever other games are out there. Definitely not saying that's the case here, but it is absolutely reasonable that they would do it.


Yes, Blizzard has released things to steal another game's thunder, but that's a bit different than reversing a game decision they'd been pushing for a couple of years, and for the game going forward in all future expansions, because some other game announced a similar feature (regardless of quality of implementation of that feature) was going to turn up in their expansion.
09/25/2017 08:10 AMPosted by Rollo
Second of all, the whole, they brought back flying because of subs. No...the only proof that I have seen as to why they brought back flight in WoD was that three days prior to that announcement Square Enix announced Final Fantasy 14 Heavensward was getting flying mounts. Blizzard then had the knee jerk reaction, afraid that more players would go play that, decided to bring it back, but they also couldn't just give you flying.


There's no proof in your proof.

When has Blizzard ever jumped because of what another game was doing?


Yeah this is a bogus statement. There is zero proof that is the reason. It's far more plausible that the reason Blizzard changed their stance, is because of the business impact to Blizzard by that original decision.

The way that he said it was a typical deflection.
09/25/2017 08:10 AMPosted by Rollo
...

There's no proof in your proof.

When has Blizzard ever jumped because of what another game was doing?


Yeah this is a bogus statement. There is zero proof that is the reason. It's far more plausible that the reason Blizzard changed their stance, is because of the business impact to Blizzard by that original decision.

The way that he said it was a typical deflection.


Its a much proof as the reason WoD had record low subs was due to no flying.
This is what the great thing is about being a lore junkie and actually paying close attention to the story...

To FINALLY see something that you've wanted to see in the game for years and years and YEARS to finally see this place...

I simply don't care that I can't fly because it's ARGUS!!!
...

Yeah this is a bogus statement. There is zero proof that is the reason. It's far more plausible that the reason Blizzard changed their stance, is because of the business impact to Blizzard by that original decision.

The way that he said it was a typical deflection.


Its a much proof as the reason WoD had record low subs was due to no flying.


NO it's not, not even close.

Flight was an issue going back to MoP with the annoucement of no flight at level cap, but not until the first content patch. That began nearly 1 year of BS from the folks at Blizzard.

The reddit AMA came two weeks after the launch of the expansion, and in that they said 'well...maybe not the first patch, we'll see'. That just set off another long discussion.

The SQEnix stuff is literally grasping at straws. You might as well say that it was because of a leap year.

If you don't understand how one of those items actually affects WoW, and the other is an ancillary item that may or may not have an impact on it, I can't help you. That should be common sense.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Its a much proof as the reason WoD had record low subs was due to no flying.


NO it's not, not even close.

Flight was an issue going back to MoP with the annoucement of no flight at level cap, but not until the first content patch. That began nearly 1 year of BS from the folks at Blizzard.

The reddit AMA came two weeks after the launch of the expansion, and in that they said 'well...maybe not the first patch, we'll see'. That just set off another long discussion.

The SQEnix stuff is literally grasping at straws. You might as well say that it was because of a leap year.

If you don't understand how one of those items actually affects WoW, and the other is an ancillary item that may or may not have an impact on it, I can't help you. That should be common sense.


Still, no one knows why the went ahead and said, ok you can fly in WoD. Only Blizzard knows and they won’t fully admit as to why.

It could have been caused because of no flight, coulda been cause the expansion was overhyped but lacked content, maybe cause it was just a bad expansion.

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